Weapon Finesse and Strength Penalties

[Bacondale]

For some reason I believed strength penalties (but not bonuses) applied when using weapon finesse but I can't find this in the rules. Does this rule exist?

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

No. But there are rules like that elsewhere, so you're probably thinking of them and not just stark raving mad.

[Umbral Reaver]

They still apply to your damage.

[Gauss]

CRB p136 Weapon Finesse wrote:

Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

IF it said 'bonus' instead of 'modifier' then yes, the Strength penalty would still apply to attack rolls.

In short, no, you do not apply your strength penalty to attack rolls using Weapon Finesse.

You still apply your strength modifier to damage.

[Bacondale]

Gauss wrote:

CRB p136 Weapon Finesse wrote:

Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

IF it said 'bonus' instead of 'modifier' then yes, the Strength penalty would still apply to attack rolls.

In short, no, you do not apply your strength penalty to attack rolls using Weapon Finesse.

You still apply your strength modifier to damage.

The Unchained Rogue's 3rd level finesse training would use the DEX modifier and ignore any strength penalties for one weapon, correct?

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Bacondale wrote:

For some reason I believed strength penalties (but not bonuses) applied when using weapon finesse but I can't find this in the rules. Does this rule exist?

Both apply. Not in the to hit category, but in damage. So you can have a +4 to hit and a -2 to damage situation just by applying standard rules.

[Gauss]

Bacondale wrote:

Gauss wrote:

CRB p136 Weapon Finesse wrote:

Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

IF it said 'bonus' instead of 'modifier' then yes, the Strength penalty would still apply to attack rolls.

In short, no, you do not apply your strength penalty to attack rolls using Weapon Finesse.

You still apply your strength modifier to damage.

The Unchained Rogue's 3rd level finesse training would use the DEX modifier and ignore any strength penalties for one weapon, correct?

Close, but not entirely accurate. The Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training uses the Dexterity modifier in place of the Strength modifier to damage (not just the Strength penalty) for one weapon.

[Kazaan]

To fully elucidate on the matter:

Attack rolls and damage rolls are two separate animals and are handled on an individual basis. Normal weapon finesse applies only to attack rolls. UnRogue's finesse training applies to both attack and damage.

If it says use Dex (modifier or bonus) in place of Strength bonus, then you may only make the replacement if you have a positive Str modifier (for this purpose, +0 would be considered positive). Eg. your Dex modifier is +3 and Str mod is +1, you use the +3 instead of the +1. But if your Dex mod is +3 and Str mod is -2, you can't use the +3 and must use the -2.

If it says use Dex (modifier or bonus) in place of Strength modifier, then you completely ignore whatever Str penalty you have, because you are using Dex in place of it. Eg. you can use your +3 Dex in place of -2 Str from the previous example.

If it says use Dex bonus in place of Strength (modifier or bonus), you may only make the substitution if your Dex modifier is +0 or higher. Eg. your Dex is -1 and your Str is -3. You can't use your -1 in place of the -3 because the -1 makes it a penalty rather than a bonus.

[Ciaran Barnes]

While I believe that the strength penalty should apply, the only instance I know if where it actually does is when making a ranged attack with certain projectile weapons, such as a bow or sling.

[Gauss]

Why should the strength penalty apply? The rules are pretty clear here.

[My Self]

Weapon Finesse wrote:

Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.

Strength penalties don't apply to attack rolls with Weapon Finesse. Shields still provide a penalty.

Maybe you're thinking of strength penalties to composite longbow attack rolls?