Critique my Slayer build idea's


Advice


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So I have been itching to make a slayer for a while now and I have two build idea's that I wanted to flesh out and get some feedback on. So here we go:
I made them at 7th level since that is the level I am starting the character.

Build 1

Shield Slayer
Race: Human
STR: 18 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 12 CHA: 7
1 Improved shield bash, H: Power attack
2 Ranger combat style: Shield slam
3 Improved bull rush
4 trapfinding
5 Spiked destroyer
6 RCS:Shield master
7 Fighter1 Greater bull rush,??

I am contemplating on getting either the siegebreaker for bull rush shenanigans or Weapon master for faster Weapon training. Although slayer 7 sounds tempting for swift study.
I also have a question about the shield master bonus to atk/dmg would it stack with a +1 shield spike? Say I have a +1 shield spike and a +3 shield do I get +4 to my attacks?

Build 2
In this build I use the ranger favoured combat style to take the Sarenrae combat style from inner sea combat to get whirlwind attack for free.

Reach slayer
Race: any
STR: 16 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 12 CHA: 7 before racial adjustment
1 Power attack
2 RCS: Improved initiative?
3 Combat reflexes
4 Trapfinding
5 lunge
6 Whirlwind attack
7 Pushing assault?

I thought this would be fun as well since you never really see Whirlwind attack used because of the heavy feat tax coupled with a reach weapon, enlarge/longarm and lunge it could be a pretty big aoe

Obviously these are just rough drafts so there is some space for changes. Really the only think I want to keep is Trapfinding since I will be the only one doing that.
So, what do you think?


Both builds look solid. You are kind of ignoring your WIL save with both however, and that usually doesn't end nicely. I'd invest at least one trait and Iron Will to get it up to snuff.

On the first build I'd recommend that you pick up spiked destroyer ASAP. It's the best feat in the game for such a build. Here's a thread on a similar build with Siegebreaker Fighter.

Lunge has a BAB requirement of +6 so you should push that back on the second build.


Man both builds look like so much fun to play I can't decide which. Also do you know the answer to the magic shield spike+shield master bonus thing?


The enhancement bonuses from Shield Master won't stack with other enhancement bonuses.

Not getting Study as a swift action is a terrible, terrible waste. Having to spend a move action on it means it's usually not going to be worth it to use, since needing a move action ruins full attack, charge, or move-up-and-standard-attack. Even assuming you activate with a Sneak Attack, that means your main combat buff is offline until you can Sneak Attack.

Unfortunately Spiked Destroyer can have issues with Study when it's a swift action. For all that's wonderful with the Slayer, it's not a build that tends to work well with concepts that use swift actions, since its main combat buff needs them. You can end up, round after round, wondering: "Do I activate my combat buff or do I use Spikes? Or do I give up a full attack so I can use both? Do I use both and then not even be able to attack this round?" Not a fun situation. Spiked Destroyer is going to be more effective on a build that gets its combat buffs automatically, like Fighter or Barbarian.


Do you think I should just be two-handing a shield instead of dual wielding them for the one extra attack?
Also, does the enhancement bonus I get from shield master count my weapon as magic for bypassing DR and the like?


Ah, solid reach build (other than the mistake with prereqs- still good choices).

Lunge has other advantages for reach. It helps set up AoOs without sacrificing your attacks.

Normally, with reach, when you attack first, the enemy ends up 10' away. They only need a 5' step to reach you- no AoOs and they get their full attack.

With lunge, they are 15' away when you attack. Many enemies ahve to move 10' to reach you, which means AoOs adn no full attack. So this helps both offense and defense.

Pushing assault serves a similar role- it pushes enemies back into that sweet spot 15' away. It is a safe method to 'reset' your AoOs. With it, you could theoretically, get full attacks and AoOs while the enemy only gets 1 attack- you are basically kiting him.

And if the enemy decides you are too tough and goes elsewhere? Well, you are no turtled monk- you are a 2 hander that can full attack anything in a 45' wide circle. So it is similar to the problem of barbarian's come and get me- they are dead if they attack you, and they are dead if they don't. The only tragedy of pushing assault si taht it is size based.


Additionally if for example a creature decides to charge me and provokes an attack of opportunity and I use pushing assault. Do I stop his charge?


Woodoodoo wrote:
Additionally if for example a creature decides to charge me and provokes an attack of opportunity and I use pushing assault. Do I stop his charge?

Sounds too convenient for an unmentioned effect. It would totally outshine the readied action of the brace property.

Most likely, you would push them back and then they would continue (they have 10' with reach, sicne they would be sent to 15' away), and it would just eat 5' of movement. Theoretically, if the charge was at its extreme distance (unlikely unless the creature had like...5-10 move speed), then possibly it could cancel it (Since the creature could not each anymore, due to the wasted 5' of movement).

But this is just me making things up on the spot


It's worth noting that after the AoO takes place the target resumes the action that provoked it, so the target is still carrying out their movement action.

Liberty's Edge

Having taken 6 levels of Slayer, you should always take a 7th. Swift Action Studied Target is very good.

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Woodoodoo wrote:
Additionally if for example a creature decides to charge me and provokes an attack of opportunity and I use pushing assault. Do I stop his charge?

Stand Still is the feat that stops an opponent with an AoO.

I like the combo of Power Attack + Pushing Assault & Combat Reflexes + Stand Still. You can push them back with your AoO and stop them in their tracks. Combined with Lunge and Whirlwind Attack, you'll be doing serious battlefield control.

Will Trait and/or Iron Will also sound like a good idea, too.


SmiloDan wrote:

Stand Still is the feat that stops an opponent with an AoO.

This keeps getting mentioned but it's still wrong. Stand Still only works if people move through adjacent squares.

Also regarding the swift action versus move action studied target. A two handed shield build can deal incredible amounts of damage on a standard action, so using your move action to study from time to time isn't such a big deal.


Do you think the two handed build is just better? Because of all the opportunity attacks? Maybe I should just keep a +1 quickdraw shield on hand incase I want to dual wield.

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Alex Mack wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

Stand Still is the feat that stops an opponent with an AoO.

This keeps getting mentioned but it's still wrong. Stand Still only works if people move through adjacent squares.

Eh, if that's so, also wear a spiked gauntlet. But check with your GM about RAW vs RAI with that feat, too. I think I've read on these forums the author of Stand Still meant it to apply to threatened area, and just wrote it down wrong. Mistakes happen. I don't know if there is an errata or FAQ about it.


Does the enhancement bonus I get from shield master make my weapon bypass DR Magic/coldiron/adamantium? Also, What would be the most suitable weapon enchant on my shield spikes?

Was there ever an official ruling on shield spikes and the bashing enchant? I believe I read somewhere that it didn't stack, but I'm not sure.


BadBird wrote:
It's worth noting that after the AoO takes place the target resumes the action that provoked it, so the target is still carrying out their movement action.

It depends on the nature of the interrupted action. A charge has to be in a straight line, so if the push puts them off a straight line, then it would no longer be a legal charge. Also, if they were out of movement to complete their charge after being moved, they couldn't finish the charge.


Melkiador wrote:
BadBird wrote:
It's worth noting that after the AoO takes place the target resumes the action that provoked it, so the target is still carrying out their movement action.
It depends on the nature of the interrupted action. A charge has to be in a straight line, so if the push puts them off a straight line, then it would no longer be a legal charge. Also, if they were out of movement to complete their charge after being moved, they couldn't finish the charge.

They resume the action, but that doesn't mean it will always function properly.


Woodoodoo wrote:

So I have been itching to make a slayer for a while now and I have two build idea's that I wanted to flesh out and get some feedback on. So here we go:

I made them at 7th level since that is the level I am starting the character.

Build 1

Shield Slayer
Race: Human
STR: 18 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 12 CHA: 7
1 Improved shield bash, H: Power attack
2 Ranger combat style: Shield slam
3 Improved bull rush
4 trapfinding
5 Spiked destroyer
6 RCS:Shield master
7 Fighter1 Greater bull rush,??

I am contemplating on getting either the siegebreaker for bull rush shenanigans or Weapon master for faster Weapon training. Although slayer 7 sounds tempting for swift study.
I also have a question about the shield master bonus to atk/dmg would it stack with a +1 shield spike? Say I have a +1 shield spike and a +3 shield do I get +4 to my attacks?

Build 2
In this build I use the ranger favoured combat style to take the Sarenrae combat style from inner sea combat to get whirlwind attack for free.

Reach slayer
Race: any
STR: 16 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 12 CHA: 7 before racial adjustment
1 Power attack
2 RCS: Improved initiative?
3 Combat reflexes
4 Trapfinding
5 lunge
6 Whirlwind attack
7 Pushing assault?

I thought this would be fun as well since you never really see Whirlwind attack used because of the heavy feat tax coupled with a reach weapon, enlarge/longarm and lunge it could be a pretty big aoe

Obviously these are just rough drafts so there is some space for changes. Really the only think I want to keep is Trapfinding since I will be the only one doing that.
So, what do you think?

Love the build. I made a very similar build as an NPC who was a serial killer as a side quest during a Shattered Star campaign I was GMing. One bit of advice I'm not sure if anyone has suggested yet is to dip into warpriest for one level to get shield, heavy, as a sacred weapon for a damage boost.


Try a Dwarven Slayer Reach weapon user.

Traits Glory of Old, whatever else.

Use the Dorn Dergar

Str 16 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 6. (20 pt buy)

1: Power Attack
2: Cleave,
3: Goblin Cleaver
4: Rogue Talent, Combat Feat: Surprise Follow Thru
5: Orc Hewer
6: Cleaving Finish
7: Gr Cleave
8: Talent:
9: Imp Surprise Follow Thru

Now, you get attacks on every enemy within range at full BAB (provided you continue hitting, full BAB decent str and study means you should), and after the first they are denied Dex and subject to sneak damage.

Surprise Follow Thru and Imp Surprise Follow Thru do NOT require you to be a half-orc, even though they are listed in that race section in the ARG.


That build looks like it would be pretty fun to play. Although a bit reliant on there being multiple creatures in an encounter. Ive always wanted to try a cleave build. Is there a chance to fit combat reflexes in there perhaps?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Is there a ranger combat style that grants Combat Reflexes? Or one of the other feats?


Quick critiques:

1. I'd bump up Strength as high as possible. Having a 21 Strength (becomes 22 at 8th level with the level-up points) is almost required if you want to be effective at killing things. You'd end up dumping Dex to 13, Con to 12, and Int to 10, but since you're Human, that's acceptable. You could also just sacrifice the Bonus Feat and the Skill Point per level to get another +2 to another score if you want.

2. I'd not invest in Bull Rush; you'll want to build on applying Full Attacks; getting more damage in through Studied Target and Sneak Attacks are going to be your bread and butter in killing people, and that only applies with getting Full Attacks. Bull Rush is a buzz kill when it comes to that. If I were going to focus on Bull Rush tactics like that, I would've picked a Barbarian and went with the Vital Strike feat chain with the highest damage dice weapon I could find, since single attacks would be all you'd effectively get anyway.

3. Put Improved Shield Bash as your 2nd level Bonus Feat, pick up Iron Will, Improved Initiative, and Accomplished Sneak Attacker, and exchange Shield Slam and Spiked Destroyer.

4. Your second build isn't even legal; you can't pick up Improved Initiative and Whirlwind Attack as Ranger Style feats (unless there's some splatbook I'm missing). Also, the reason why Whirlwind Attack is hardly picked isn't just because of the feat taxes, read the description:

Whirlwind Attack wrote:
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

So that Haste spell you were buffed with? Poof, it doesn't work. Power Attack? Poof, it actually makes it harder for you to hit for no reason at all. Your Studied Target? Poof, you're hit with pop quiz anxiety when you use this feat. You wanted to go Fighter for Weapon Training? Poof, that's a class ability which grants a bonus to hit, it doesn't apply. Seriously, it's the biggest trap since the classic Tomb of Horrors in 1E (I think it was in 1E), and the only reason you'd pick it is if you're an extremely buff monster who has a lot of BAB and Strength to go around.

5. That being said, I'd consider taking the Weapon and Shield style, pick up Shield Focus as your 2nd level feat, pick up Shield Brace at 3rd level, and use either a Bardiche or Hooked Lance. For your 6th level, pick up Saving Shield (as you won't be attacking with it, making Shield Master pointless), and Greater Shield Focus for your 10th. Also, you'd have to make Lunge your 7th level feat, as BAB +6 is required.

6. You might want to take Improved and Greater Trip, though I would only recommend this if you plan on fighting creatures only one size larger than you a lot of the time. Otherwise, pick up feats like Weapon Focus and Accomplished Sneak Attacker; bonuses to hit and increasing Sneak Attack damage is gravy for a Slayer.


@ Darksol,

It doesn't forfeit attack bonuses, only bonus -Attacks-.

Whirlwind Attack is one attack at full bonus against anything you threaten.

If it was designed to do what you are arguing, it would say "you also forfeit any attack bonuses or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

So far as the above build, either a Two Handed Style or a Gorum Style can get those feats in ... so far as Combat Reflexes you can get it at 8, not really any sooner. You can take either URogue or any fighter class after level 7, although I would still go to 8 for the other talent.
That would get you either more sneak attack or more feats, depending on what you want.


TGMaxMaxer wrote:

@ Darksol,

It doesn't forfeit attack bonuses, only bonus -Attacks-.

Whirlwind Attack is one attack at full bonus against anything you threaten.

If it was designed to do what you are arguing, it would say "you also forfeit any attack bonuses or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

So far as the above build, either a Two Handed Style or a Gorum Style can get those feats in ... so far as Combat Reflexes you can get it at 8, not really any sooner. You can take either URogue or any fighter class after level 7, although I would still go to 8 for the other talent.
That would get you either more sneak attack or more feats, depending on what you want.

Bonus and extra are synonymous in this case. There would be no reason to be redundant, considering saying just "extra attacks" would be just as enough.

As it's written, you forfeit two things:

-Any bonus granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. This implies Power Attack, Weapon Training, Studied Target, Divine Favor, etc. does not apply.
-Any extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. This implies that TWF, Rapid Shot, Haste, Speed Properties, UCMonk Flurry of Blows, etc. does not apply.

Do I wish it was your way? Yes, so that it's less of a trap, though it's still a trap. But does it look that way? Very unlikely, considering how redundant it sounds if it was, and I'd like to give Paizo the benefit of the doubt there, considering that has been there since the CRB was released.


Inner sea combat has ranger combat styles based on a bunch of different gods. One of those gives whirlwind attack at 6.


I've never heard of anyone interpreting whirlwind attack that way, Darksol. I would say an "attack bonus" has a very different meaning than a "bonus attack".

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I think when 3.0 came out, it was written by and for gamers. As it evolved into 3.5 and PF, "rules lawyers" got extreme, and now the spirit of the game has been hijacked by folks parsing the minutia of rules in ways that often reduce the fun of the game.


lemeres wrote:
...Lunge has other advantages for reach. It helps set up AoOs without sacrificing your attacks.

Unless I am misinterpreting your meaning, it is noteworthy that lunge's 5' of extra reach bonus only applies until the end of your turn, so it wouldn't help with AoOs after your turn is over.


Zedth wrote:
lemeres wrote:
...Lunge has other advantages for reach. It helps set up AoOs without sacrificing your attacks.
Unless I am misinterpreting your meaning, it is noteworthy that lunge's 5' of extra reach bonus only applies until the end of your turn, so it wouldn't help with AoOs after your turn is over.

Example: You have a weapon with 10 feet of reach, and you are at 10 feet away. If you end your turn at 10 feet, then your enemy can just 5 foot step and hit you without drawing an attack. With lunge, you stand 15 feet away when making your attack. Now your opponent has to draw an attack to close with you.


Thanks for that clarification, Melkiador. :)

Awesome!

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