Party Composition: Rise of RL Without A Arcane Caster?


Advice


My son's going to run us through this AP to get some more experience before working more on his homebrew campaign.

Question I have is about how feasible our party composition is and if we need an arcane caster (or even just a dip) - I let everyone else pick first, and am looking to round out the group and so far we have:

Dwarven Ranger (will focus bows and start with goblin favored)
Elven Paladin - will be the frontliner
Elven Ninja - skills, scouting, traps, etc

I'm concerned about healing and condition fixing at lower levels, as well as lack of access to arcane spell lists.

I'm looking at a human jeckle/hyde type RP and combat. Studious professional out of combat with knowledge heavy skill investment (plus Student of Ancients and Tireless Logic traits); then uses enlarge (Hyde effect) and reach weapon in combat for control.

The best fit "flavor" seems like:
1. Alchemist 1/Cleric to end of AP (Community and Traveler Domains)
-I can use the RP, out of and in combat concept immediately at level 1, then improve my control/healing/buffing/condition fixer. But not a true arcane access mechanically and would need to keep UMD investment.
-I also like mutagen for "backup" plan on a multi-combat day; plus brew-potion. I'd also ask GM to swam Throw-Anything for Martial Proficiency-Bardiche; and take Vivisectionist to swap 1d6 sneak-attack for bombs. Also this would give us a CLW per day at 1st level.

But if we need someone with true access to arcane spell list, then I'm thinking:
2. Magus1/Cleric to end of AP.
-Can still use the concept out the gate but no mutagen, and enlarge is 1rd casting until I can afford a wand. 14INT so I'd have 3 minutes of +1 stacking weapon enhancement per day (flexible to any weapon), and access to wands/scrolls w/o UMD checks. Another drawback is arcane failure, as I feel like I need to go heavy armor due to 2handed weapon use. this route would either leave us w/o healing (beyond potions) at first level, or I'd have to go cleric 1/magus1/cleric.... which doesn't fit as cleanly for the character concept, but I'd be willing to do it if Magus (and survivability at 1st level w/o a cleric is an issue.


I would think with a little planing you could run without an arcane caster. Not on the player's part, but the GM's part. The AP would have everything lined out and make it easy for him to spot anything that "needs" arcane and switch it out with something else.

Basically use the AP as a guideline, instead of it being all set in stone. To me it would help him understand how things are supposed to flow and allow some on the spot creative editing. Since you are running it with him, you could help him think of alternatives that the characters could work around.

Or while it would be a little more work on his part, draw up a healer as a character, and have the GM run that character as an NPC. It is something I and a friend have done with solid success in the past. We usually do it this way if the other players are inexperienced or they aren't good at effectively using a magic based character.

Either way would be how I would handle it. As it allows you to play a character you want to play, instead of needing to play.


Nodrogs advice is pretty good. If none of that will be applied then what I would suggest is grab a divine healer that also has arcane abilities. Towards that end I have two suggestions....

1) an ecclisitheurge or theologian cleric of Azothoth (or something close). You have channel heals, divine spells for curses and such, but with good domain selections can have a LOT of arcane spells too. Furthermore at level 7 you can take dreamed secrets feat to get any two wizard spells you want. Finally, madness domain powers and madness channeling options make for great control on the absence of a true wizard.

2) ancient lorekeeper oracle of life. Get that really big channeling to allow you and paladin to keep the party fighting on and get access to ANY spell even if at higher level.

Now I'm just going to say that those two are based on my interpretation of what your concerned with being met, it isn't necessarily what I would recommend for taking care of the group. Toward that end what I think you really need is something that does group damage/debuff. Dazing fireballs are the stereotypical kind but some alchemists do this well and could work with one of your two options. Variant channeling based on rulership, ale, madness, and such would also work.

Bottom line there are a lot of options to choose from.


Lore Shaman can fill a lot of holes.


What exactly do you even NEED an Arcane caster for? Running it with no alterations with a Warpriest, Paladin and Inquisitor. They haven't had a single issue with needing arcane magic.


Hmm, I'd be quite tempted - given your concept - to just go full alchemist, myself.

The Master Chymist Prestige Class is the Jeckle & Hyde PrC.

The Beastmorph & Vivisectionist archetypes (they can stack) coupled with it is just so, so good.

Check out N.Jolly's amazing Alchemist guide for some excellent build suggestions.

If the player is open to it, your paladin can play an extremely effective tank/healer as an oracle/paladin (see my thread, here.)

EDIT: A little more on-topic, an Alchemist makes a fine arcane substitute.


Two oracle suggestions:
1. Human Flame Oracle with the Haunted curse, take the extra spells fcb. You will can fill offensive, buffing and healing rolls with a little utility as well.

2. Half-Elf and take the Ancient Lore-keeper archetype to get some arcane spells.

G


Oracle Spirit Guide can switch from healing to blasting every day. I usually do this with life Oracle and a wandering Flame spirit but other combos are possible.


You might consider a hex channeling hedge witch.


Witch would certainly be good, although I would only recommend Hex Channeler if you want to have some kind of rider effect on your Channeling (such as some of the better ones available from Variant Channeling and/or Turn Undead(*)), because Hexes are too good to pass up in favor of increasing your Channeling dice -- even if you don't invest anything in increasing your Channeling dice beyond 1, you still get full Cleric-equivalent DC on your Channeling. Keep in mind that most Hexes are usable once per day per target (and some of the remainder have a continuous effect on yourself), thus partially alleviating your low spells per day. Hedge Witch (trades out 4th and 8th level Hexes) helps you be a better healer (the 4th level Hex tradeout gets you spontaneous casting of Cure-series spells, even if you don't add them to your spellbook Familiar, while the 8th level Hex tradeout Empathic Healing is more situational). Herb Witch is compatible with Hedge Witch (but not with Hex Channeler) gives you some Alchemy-oriented abilities (including a scaling bonus on Profession (Herbalist) and the ability to use that skill instead of Craft (Alchemy)) that are useful for bad status removal; in exchange, Herb Witch trades out your 1st level Hex and fixes your 2nd level Hex as Cauldron (since the latter still counts as Hex class feature, you still qualify for Extra Hex at 3rd level, or even 2nd level if you dipped something else before this). In any case, if you take the Healing Patron (which you want for Hedge Witch and Herb Witch anyway, although Endurance would also work for Hedge Witch without Herb Witch), you can do most (all?) of the bad status removal (and a decent amount of other stuff) that a divine caster would do, while still having a decent subset of arcane casting.

(*)RotL Spoiler:
Both of these are actually likely to be useful in Rise of the Runelords, although the usefulness of Turn Undead will drop off later on.

If you want a Witch but worry more about limited spells per day and a vulnerable spellbook Familiar that is hard to back up, but don't worry so much about limited spells known, you could go Ley Line Guardian (trades out Familiar and prepared spellcasting for spontaneous spellcasting with the same number of spells per day as a Sorcerer), although unfortunately this is incompatible with both Hedge Witch and Herb Witch (but IS compatible with Hex Channeler); on the other hand, Conduit Surge is useful if you need the extra caster level on a bad status removal caster level check or even to improve your chances of landing a SOL spell (although I would recommend saving it for the former, and keep in mind that it will require some Charisma investment, even though your spontaneous spellcasting is still Intelligence-based, and you will need to seriously boost your Fortitude Save if you want to use it in combat).


GM 1990 wrote:

Question I have is about how feasible our party composition is and if we need an arcane caster (or even just a dip) - I let everyone else pick first, and am looking to round out the group and so far we have:

Dwarven Ranger (will focus bows and start with goblin favored)
Elven Paladin - will be the frontliner
Elven Ninja - skills, scouting, traps, etc

I'm concerned about healing and condition fixing at lower levels, as well as lack of access to arcane spell lists.

I'm looking at a human jeckle/hyde type RP and combat. Studious professional out of combat with knowledge heavy skill investment (plus Student of Ancients and Tireless Logic traits); then uses enlarge (Hyde effect) and reach weapon in combat for control.

Your Ranger has some access to healing.

Your Paladin has some access to healing, and to condition removal.
Your Ninja has ample skill points to get UMD into a good range for use.

You already have two melee types, and the third is also heavy damage at range. You don't need to be melee. A controller would likely be better. Someone to limit the battlefield options to help your party and hinder the enemy. Any caster should be OK for that. Read The Forge of Combat and Fueling the Forge to gain an appreciation for the rols in combat. These are two guides listed in the Guide to the Guides. Point your GM to this list, as it includes a lot of useful advice for nearly every aspect of the game, player and GM alike.

You have two half healers already. You can get by with wands of cure light early, and the Paladin can get Lay-on-Hands condition removal if they want. So you don't require a dedicated healer.

For Arcane, I too suggest the witch. Any type should be OK, but do not use a pure witch for melee, as they are too fragile. Hexes are unlimited use, and a first one of Evil Eye works great at all levels. Other hexes can help for other things later. You can pick up the healing hex for extra healing, and it scales well for larger parties. Also useful as a single attack against undead. You also get Reincarnate, Raise Dead, and Resurrection, for ultimate healing. With the right patron you can get additional options. As a full caster, you get access to 9th level arcane spells, albeit limited in comparison to a wizard. The trade-off for some spells from the divine list is likely worth it.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:

{. . .}

For Arcane, I too suggest the witch. Any type should be OK, but do not use a pure witch for melee, as they are too fragile. {. . .}

. . . Except for pre-Errata Orc Scarred Witch Doctor . . . .

Looks longingly back into the past.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I'm playing in a 5th Edition conversion of RotRL, so take the following with a grain of salt.

We have a blaster wizard that has been VERY effective. There are lots opponents--and lots of groups of lots of opponents--in this AP. A lot with relatively low Reflex saves, too. Battlefield control is also very helpful in this AP.

Also, a lot of knowledge of the arcane arts is very very helpful.

We also have a good, well rounded party: dwarf cleric of Desna (big time buffer and healer, decent tank), human ranger archer (primary damage dealer, clinch spells!), human fighter (eldritch knight--would probably be a magus in PF) two-weapon fighter, elf rogue (arcane trickster--would probably just fill up on elf favored class bonus Minor and Major arcana in PF) archer/skirmisher, wizard (diviner that blasts), and a half-orc barbarian berserker.


I'd say witch as well, and start out with the Healing hex. It's not fantastic or anything, but it does CC pretty well.

You get Reincarnate, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Heal(7th), and the Paladin gets Restoration as a 1st level spell, which is only 1 level after when the cleric would have it anyway.

Your in-combat healing will be pretty bad after level 3 or so, until you get Heal, but that's not when healing is best employed anyway.

And I'd say that getting an arcane caster is important enough for you to skimp on healing a little bit.

You also get Infernal Healing, which is a doozy.

Edit: If healing is really important to you, grab the Healing patron, and the Hedge Witch archetype. The Cartomancer archetype will let you heal by throwing cards at people, and also use offensive touch spells at range, which is wierd but cool. It also stacks with Hedge Witch.


I will agree with the people doing a witch for this. We have a witch in our RotRL campaign as the only arcane user and she does a great job.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Our 5th Edition wizard is a divination specialist that gets this Portents ability where he rolls two d20 when he prepares spells, records the results, and can use them to replace allies' or enemies' rolls later on. It has been super useful, and a lot of the witch hexes kind of simulate that ability (Evil Eye, Fortune, Misfortune), so I can see how a witch would be very useful. Maybe pick up the Healing Hex (it also works great against undead!) and Cackle, of course.

Witches are pretty good at doing double duty as an arcane spell caster and healer.

Maybe pick up the traits Dangerously Curious and/or whatever trait lets you use Intelligence on Use Magic Device checks?

Or is your ninja going to be maxing out UMD too?


I gamemastering this adventure and have prepared all player's characters, so they fill all the roles inside and outside combat. 3 (out of 4) of them have arcane casting and only one divine.

Samsaran sorcerer (wildblooded – sage) / secondary class (variant multiclassing)– wizard (diviner)
In combat: primary – battlefield control, secondary buffing/debuffing.
She concentrate on
- summoning (using alternate racial trait to get lower level access to summon monster spells via summoner list and allowing to take academae graduate feat [she has wizard as secondary class] to summon as standard action)
- conjuration (spells without spell resistances and covering mainly reflex but also other saves) which she will combine (on higher levels) with elemental spell and persistent spell metamagic and dazing metamagic rod.
outside combat: scouting and investigating + versatile utility.
Her bat familiar has pilferer archetype (rougish), her main stat is intelligence and she has plenty of points to put inside investigating/scouting skills. She is spending a lot (about 40 % of her wealth) to be (her familiar respectively) good scout/investigator.
She also has student of philosophy trait to be able to communicate effectively. She has also ring of spell knowledge (and plans to buy multiple mnemonic vestment) to have wizard-like spell versatility (for utility uses).

Half-orc bard (fire dancer) which will (as soon as possible) change to evangelist (Irori)
in combat: primary buffer, secondary damage dealer and also battlefield controller.
Buffing by bardic performances and spells.
Fighting with agile adamantine elven branched spear and feats like: finesse, phalanx formation, combat reflexes, weapon proficiency (using flawed cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone beforehand), weapon focus, weapon versatility.
Battlefield by seeing through obscuring mist (song of fiery gaze) cast by sorcerer.
out of combat: party face, skill monkey, lore master.
Usual bardic stuff.

Half-orc bloodrager (primalist – draconic) / dragon disciple.
in combat: damage dealer / tank
11 levels of bloodrager will get him a lot of rounds of rage, quick rage, claws. He will swap out draconic resistance, breath and wings to get them all by all beast totems and elemental blood (air) and in addition he will get pounce.
Next 4 levels of dragon disciple (bite yeah, and strength, and also natural armor).
Then back to bloodrager.
Feats, traits and equipment focused on
- getting new attacks (helm of mammoth, manta ray cloak, maybe hoove of some daemon)
- enhancing attacks (multiattack, improved natural attack, amulet of mighty fists, body wrap of mighty strikes, cleave)
- nehancing saves (sacred tattoo, fate's favored, iron will, cloak of resistance, auspicious mark)
- and a bit of damage reduction and bit of armor class (the least concern, because of next character – nonbot healer).
out of combat: intimidation.
but his charisma is not so bad, so he can handle himself (a bit).

Half-elf paladin (divine hunter) / secondary class (variant multiclassing) oracle (life)
in combat: primary – damage dealer, secondary – buffing.
In early level he uses reach pole-arms or bite (wolfscarred), but his bow competence is progressing and he will be able to buff others to also deal ranged damage.
Main buffing is through life-link and swift action self healing by lay on hands.
Feats and equipment is focused on healing a and ranged attacks (beside saves and bit of armor).
out of combat: healing, party face (a bit).

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