3PP Replacements for Mythic Rules?


Product Discussion


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Some background: I'm one of those who really wanted to like the mythic rules. But given the number of problems I had running a party through the first five and half books of Wrath of the Righteous, it's hard for me to imagine using them again.

Brief Details:
By book three the PCs were steamrolling through encounters. I started (a) using Scorpion's modified stat blocks and (b) multiplying enemy HPs by x2-x3, and this kept encounters challenging. But the game also became incredibly slow and error-prone. (I don't think we managed to get through a single fight in the last book and a half without making at least a few mistakes (forgetting bonuses or penalties, forgetting about PC abilities or monster abilities which would have substantially changed the dynamic of the fight, and so on.)) And when, in the middle of book six, we spent two 4 hour sessions on a single fight and still hadn't finished it, we finally called it quits.

That said, I really like the idea behind the mythic ruleset. So I was wondering whether anyone knows of any 3PP offerings for how to run a campaign with a mythic feel, but a more manageable rule-set. (And if so, what people's impressions of these offerings were!)


Well Legendary Games has a wonderful selection of Mythic Rule add on and Solutions I think did offer as the title said some solutions to mythic. I've had the steamrolling happen before so I know the pain.

Sovereign Court

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I do hear that there is an excellent book by Legendary Games that really does a lot to fix a majority of these problems.

Try here.

The above rules and a lot more excellent content are also found here.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Freedom16 wrote:
Well Legendary Games has a wonderful selection of Mythic Rule add on and Solutions I think did offer as the title said some solutions to mythic. I've had the steamrolling happen before so I know the pain.
Lorathorn wrote:

I do hear that there is an excellent book by Legendary Games that really does a lot to fix a majority of these problems.

Try here.

The above rules and a lot more excellent content are also found here.

Thanks for the tip!

I actually do have the Mythic Solutions book, and I agree that it does do a fair amount to mitigate some of the most egregious excesses. But I was actually looking for more of a different kind of ruleset.

(FWIW, here's why: Many of the alternative rules Mythic Solutions describes were ones we employed when playing through Wrath of the Righteous. And while it certainly made things better, so many problems remained (with rocket tag, remembering all of one's options/abilities, and most of all, speed of play) that we eventually gave up.

As some other people have noted, there are general problems with high level play that Pathfinder inherited from 3rd edition D&D. And since the Mythic rules largely focus on increasing the numbers (stat increases, damage increases, # of attack increases, etc), the Mythic rules push the game towards the problems and imbalances that arise in high level play much more quickly.)

What I was hoping for was a 3rd party offering which replaced the Mythic rules with something that carried a "mythic" feel, but didn't have the same "push the game to be like high level play" kinds of problems. (And in particular, which didn't bog the speed of the game down so much.)

Has anybody come across anything like that?


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What you're asking for is pretty hard to acheive. After all things that give you a "mythic" feel, generally doing so by pushing the numbers, the very thing that causes the problems with mythic and epic.

On the other hand, to be fair, I enjoyed playing WOTR, because the mythic abilities gave me freedom to not have to worry about hyperoptimising my character to messageboard standards. The fact that we all pretty much did so and that we had a very capable GM made it a good campaign for us.

I had tons of fun with my summoning Paladin. Who finished the game as a Neutral Good Paladin, thanks to a grace by Iomedae.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Ps. I've come across one potential offering by skimming through the reviews of Endzeitgeist. Suzerain seems to offer a different kind of ruleset which might be closer to the kind of thing I'm looking for. (Though I had a hard time getting a feel for how well it addressed the particular kinds of problems we had with the Mythic rules -- so if anyone has it, and wants to comment, I'd love to hear your thoughts!)

There's also this comment from Malwing in the product discussion section:

Malwing wrote:

The description leads me to ask; How does this compare to Mythic Adventures?

The general description makes me think this is like Mythic but different, making it the second Mythic clone I've seen this month...

This suggests that there's at least one other alternative set of rules in the offing, and possibly more. What I'd like to know is:

  • What are these alternatives? (Malwing doesn't name the second "Mythic clone" he/she refers to. What is it? What is it like?)
  • And for those acquainted with these alternatives, what are your thoughts on the matter? (Especially w.r.t. avoiding the kinds of difficulties described above?)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
What you're asking for is pretty hard to acheive. After all things that give you a "mythic" feel, generally doing so by pushing the numbers, the very thing that causes the problems with mythic and epic.

I agree that the two tend to be correlated. But I was thinking (hoping?) that one could come up with a set of rules which pulled these two things apart. Perhaps rules that are similar to the parts of the Mythic rules that allow people to do interesting, narrative-changing and world-changing things (Mythic Baleful Polymorph, Mythic Sleep and Mythic Levitate are nice examples, as is the ability to grant followers divine spells), but with less of the static stat and damage increasing bits (like stat increases every tier, Mythic Power Attack, Channel Power, etc.) which amp up the game, but don't do much to change the kinds of things players (and NPCs) can do.

Is the possibility of such rules merely wishful thinking on my part? Maybe. But I hope not!

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
On the other hand, to be fair, I enjoyed playing WOTR, because the mythic abilities gave me freedom to not have to worry about hyperoptimising my character to messageboard standards. The fact that we all pretty much did so and that we had a very capable GM made it a good campaign for us.

I know the Mythic rules have worked well for some people, and that's awesome. I'm certainly not trying to rain on anyone's parade!

Just trying to see if anyone has come across something different that might work better for me and my players.

Sovereign Court

There is always the Hero Point option. It's simple, and from what I hear, elegant.


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@Porridge: The Suzerain- Player's Guide is free, so you may want to check it out - perhaps it's what you're looking for! The link's at the bottom of my review here!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Lorathorn wrote:
There is always the Hero Point option. It's simple, and from what I hear, elegant.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Hero Point system!

Endzeitgeist wrote:
@Porridge: The Suzerain- Player's Guide is free, so you may want to check it out - perhaps it's what you're looking for! The link's at the bottom of my review here!

Oh, nice. Thanks for the reference! I'll definitely check it out.


There was a 3rd party option for epic/mythic. It came out before mythic, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was called. I think it had a red cover.


The NPC wrote:
There was a 3rd party option for epic/mythic. It came out before mythic, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was called. I think it had a red cover.

Are you thinking of Legendary Levels, by ... Little Red Goblin Games, maybe?


Distant Scholar wrote:
The NPC wrote:
There was a 3rd party option for epic/mythic. It came out before mythic, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was called. I think it had a red cover.
Are you thinking of Legendary Levels, by ... Little Red Goblin Games, maybe?

...which seems to have been expunged from existence!

Cheers
Mark


Hypercorps 2099 is like the amped up, deadly sibling of Mythic Adventures (from the future). Backer fulfillment starts this week and it should be on sale soon! :D

(and if we get lucky in the event lottery, there will be two games and a seminar for it at PaizoCon!)


Mark Norfolk wrote:
Distant Scholar wrote:
The NPC wrote:
There was a 3rd party option for epic/mythic. It came out before mythic, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was called. I think it had a red cover.
Are you thinking of Legendary Levels, by ... Little Red Goblin Games, maybe?

...which seems to have been expunged from existence!

Cheers
Mark

That's the one and dang it. Maybe it can be found? Now I am curious. Does anyone have here have it?


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So we pulled Legendary Levels about 2 years ago because it no longer meet our quality standards. We do have a revised version that we are working on for post 20th level play.


Little Red Goblin Games wrote:
So we pulled Legendary Levels about 2 years ago because it no longer meet our quality standards. We do have a revised version that we are working on for post 20th level play.

Might be just in time for when my group get to the end of Kingmaker!.

Off on a tangent, I did like the concept of Legendary Classes in Dragon, back in the 3.0 days. The class was a super-prestige class where there was only one person of that class (The Barbarian King, The Snow Queen - that kind of thing). They only did a few though.

I guess the whole thing boils down to what sort of high-level stuff you want - each group is different. Maybe we do need multiple rule sets for epic-level to cater to all tastes. Multi-planar, godhood, plain old DPR, narrative or whatever.

Cheers
Mark


Sounds like you need to read Alex Augunus' Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters more than anything.


Thanks - copied. A useful item that will certainly help. But it doesn't look at themes or concepts of high level play. I going to give it a good read though, even if it touches on some stuff I covered anyway...

Cheers
Mark


MikeMyler wrote:

Hypercorps 2099 is like the amped up, deadly sibling of Mythic Adventures (from the future). Backer fulfillment starts this week and it should be on sale soon! :D

(and if we get lucky in the event lottery, there will be two games and a seminar for it at PaizoCon!)

We got real lucky and there are FOUR PaizoCon events for Hypercorps 2099! Also, the digital rewards are being fulfilled to backers this week and the core book (and two more adventures!) should be available for purchase soon. :D


Little Red Goblin Games wrote:
So we pulled Legendary Levels about 2 years ago because it no longer meet our quality standards. We do have a revised version that we are working on for post 20th level play.

It may just be me, but having "legacy products" would be cool; it shows a 'where we were and where we are' look at a your company as a whole. In fact, getting a "Directors Notes" version where you talk about design decisions and what not is always really cool.

Such legacy products should likely either be cheap or free though.


Hypercorps 2099 is now available (in case you missed it on the Paizo blog earlier this month :D).

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