Hellknight / Noble Scion


Advice


Hey folks!

So there's talk of my group looking at the Hell's Vengeance ap, and it looks like we're in need of some muscle. Looking at the player's guide I'm thinking that a hellknight-in-training would be a suitably thematic choice, but I'm also tempted by the noble scion prc.

Is that a sensible option, or am I crippling myself? I've got no idea what's coming up in the adventure, so I've no idea how optimised I'll need to be - GM is totally new to things, so I don't want to make their life difficult.

I'm mostly thinking of a human antipaladin (with the new Tyrant archetype), though Aasimar has crossed my mind - I quite like the idea of a Chelaxian noble family with the blood of a fallen celestial in their line, and I think it might work well with the Kinslayer feat.

Cheers!


One other thing that was suggested to me was to try a vigilante/hellknight (or even a vigilante/hellknight/scion), the idea being that a full face helmet would conceal his identity and fulfil my urge to be a combat/face character.

No idea how sensible that is either, mind. I suspect my lot are just a little enamoured of Ultimate Intrigue.

Liberty's Edge

I wouldn't leave Antipaladin if going with it. It's a Class that rewards continued investment.

Ditto Vigilante in some ways, though 5 levels of Avenger would give you Shield of Blades and one other Talent of your choice (as well as Renown, Social Graces, and maybe Many Guises), which I suppose is all you really need, and 6 would give you Vital Punishment as well, and 7 would allow Quick Change.

So...if going PRCs I'd go Vigilante, of the two.

You could absolutely thematically be a Hellknight with the Noble Scion Prestige Class. You don't need levels in the PRC to be one, after all. You could also do a character with both Prestige Classes, though in that case I'd only dip Noble Scion for a couple of levels (2 levels gives you Leadership with a Cohort only one level lower).

You could also, of course, just go Avenger alone, maybe with a one or two level Hellknight dip, and flavor it as a Hellknight (Vigilante Identity)/Noble Scion (Social Identity).

I can think of lots of other options, here, but I don't really know what you're looking for with the character, so my ability to help is a little limited.


Thanks man :) The Vigilante is definitely growing on me...

Is there anything in particular you'd need to know? I'm fairly new to Pathfinder (outside of the Beginner's Box), so I'm not always sure what sorta things people need to know to help :)

Broadly, I'm after something thematic for the story; getting involved with both the Chelish nobility and a Hellknight order feels a bit like two for one on that front. It'd be cool if the mechanics reflected that - hence I'm pretty interested in taking both prcs, even if I don't complete them. On a group role front I'm looking to melee and serve as the group face.

But I'm cautious of creating a character who winds up as dead weight because I've tried to do too much, really. So any advice I can get I'm happy to listen to, even if it wasn't quite what I had in mind.

Liberty's Edge

Okay, given that, I'd go Vigilante (Avenger) straight up. You don't need either PRC for that to work, and then grab a few levels of Hellknight for theme (I'd go two for the armor and discern lies, then stop).

That all works out really well thematically and mechanically, since the social identity of a Vigilante is definitely able to be a noble by default (and I believe there's a Campaign Trait that makes you noble as well, take that). You can reinforce that with things like Celebrity Perks and Celebrity Discount without ever taking a level in another class.

Noble Scion is in no way necessary to be a Noble, and indeed, as stated, nobility is one of the default assumptions for Vigilante, so I wouldn't bother going that route unless you want the specific mechanics involved (a higher leveled cohort than normal people get is the big one).

What point-buy are you using? Tell me that and I can throw out a basic build for you.


Yeah, cheers man. I think I overestimated what I'd need for theme - I figured I didn't need noble scion to be a noble, but I had no idea you could be a hellknight without the prc! Grabbing it for a few levels still sorta feels right though :)

It'll be either a 20 or 25 point buy - probably 25, as I think the DM is a bit worried about us all dying in five minutes.


You can also take the Noble Scion feat if you want to.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/noble-scion

Liberty's Edge

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BrazenRogue wrote:
Yeah, cheers man. I think I overestimated what I'd need for theme - I figured I didn't need noble scion to be a noble, but I had no idea you could be a hellknight without the prc! Grabbing it for a few levels still sorta feels right though :)

the first two levels give you Detect Chaos at-will, Discern Lies several times a day, and the ability to move at full speed in Heavy Armor. They're totally worth it. You lose out on some skills, and delay Mad Rush (which is amazing) but they're still a solid call.

BrazenRogue wrote:
It'll be either a 20 or 25 point buy - probably 25, as I think the DM is a bit worried about us all dying in five minutes.

With 25 point-buy, I'd go something like this:

Str 18 (16+2)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 14

Traits:
Chelish Nobility (only okay mechanically, but very in-theme), and either Reactionary or Resilient.

Feats:

1: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Power Attack,
3: Dazzling Display
4: Hurtful
5: Iron Will (or maybe Great Fortitude, if you didn't take Resilient)
7: Cornugon Smash

And after that, Feats are pretty much up to you. You're set in terms of requirements. Though Furious Focus is really nice once you have Cornugon Smash + Hurtful up and running..

Vigilante Talents:

1: Social Graces (Whatever skills you like)
2: Signature Weapon
3: Renown
4: Shield of Blades
5: Celebrity Perks or Many Guises
6: Inspired Vigilante
7: Quick Change
8: Perfect Vulnerability (sets up a second attack with Cornugon Smash and Hurtful really well).
9: Great Renown
10: Nothing Can Stop Me
11: Incedible Renown
12: Mad Rush
13: Instant Change

I'd take my Hellknight levels as levels 8 and 9. Inspired Vigilante and Quick change are awesome and should not be delayed. Mad Rush hurts to delay, too, but waiting for level 13 to get the Prestige Class is a bit late.

A viable alternative would be to get the Psychometrist Archetype on Vigilante and trade several of those Talents for Focus Powers, some of which are very cool (the ability to put Bane on your weapon whenever you want is particularly shiny).

Liberty's Edge

The Guy With A Face wrote:

You can also take the Noble Scion feat if you want to.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/noble-scion

This is absolutely an option. It's not a real great one mechanically, though, since Vigilantes have Knowledge (Nobility) as a Class skill already.


I think that Vigilante (no archetype required), Phantom Thief Rogue, and Noble Fencer Swashbuckler (and maybe some of the other Ultimate Intrigue archetypes) made the Noble Scion prestige class largely obsolete, except for the first 2 levels of this prestige class if you want to do something with Leadership and the default Leadership feat is just not quite good enough.

Also, keep in mind that Path of the Hellknight is coming out in the middle of this year, and that should have more Hellknight options.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
The Guy With A Face wrote:

You can also take the Noble Scion feat if you want to.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/noble-scion

This is absolutely an option. It's not a real great one mechanically, though, since Vigilantes have Knowledge (Nobility) as a Class skill already.

Yeah...

I was thinking that CHA to initiative would make it passable if he was going to have a high charisma and lower dex. I wasn't sure what his ability scores were like. I agree its not optimal at all though.


That looks fantastic, cheers very much! I'm completely unfamiliar with the Psychometrist (and the Occult stuff period), but it does look interesting - I'll have to check it out. The idea of having a bunch of mysterious artefacts seems to tie in well with the noble theme.

Is Quick Change that good? Seems a little odd, though I'm still trying to wrap my head around changing into a suit of full plate in a minute, never mind instantly...

One thing I'd be curious about though is the Aasimar option. Biggest problem I can see is that losing that extra feat would cost me the heavy armour proficiency, which is a requirement for the Hellknight. I suppose a level of noble scion would net me that - but honestly I think you guys have talked me out of it, and a level of Fighter just flat out seems wiser.

I'm not totally set on being an Aasimar or anything, it's just a rehash of an ancient character concept I had once - and the player's guide mentions Kinslayer as a great option for the AP (for humans actually, but it also seems that fighting celestials is going to be common enough).

Liberty's Edge

BrazenRogue wrote:
That looks fantastic, cheers very much! I'm completely unfamiliar with the Psychometrist (and the Occult stuff period), but it does look interesting - I'll have to check it out. The idea of having a bunch of mysterious artefacts seems to tie in well with the noble theme.

Yeah, that could be cool thematically. I can post a quick progression for that one too (modified from the above), if you'd like.

BrazenRogue wrote:
Is Quick Change that good? Seems a little odd, though I'm still trying to wrap my head around changing into a suit of full plate in a minute, never mind instantly...

I think it's more swapping tabards and helmets at that point. Or making use of Glamered armor. You don't actually get to swap into armor at super-speed, you just switch identities. Still super-handy for your nobleman in glistening plate to suddenly be in hulking grey Hellknight armor (via a bit of darkening and an added helmet), though.

BrazenRogue wrote:
One thing I'd be curious about though is the Aasimar option. Biggest problem I can see is that losing that extra feat would cost me the heavy armour proficiency, which is a requirement for the Hellknight. I suppose a level of noble scion would net me that - but honestly I think you guys have talked me out of it, and a level of Fighter just flat out seems wiser.

I wouldn't dip into another Class. The build above isn't all that tight on Feats, though. You can get Heavy Armor Proficiency at 5th instead of Iron Will. Or shuffle a few Feats around and grab it earlier.

Playing an Aasimar, especially an Angel-descened one (Str and Cha stat boosts) is a pretty solid option, though.

BrazenRogue wrote:
I'm not totally set on being an Aasimar or anything, it's just a rehash of an ancient character concept I had once - and the player's guide mentions Kinslayer as a great option for the AP (for humans actually, but it also seems that fighting celestials is going to be common enough).

Kinslayer would be terrible mechanically, because Aasimar have only the Native subtype, and actual Celestials don't have that, so it wouldn't work on them, only other aasimar and tieflings. Mechanically speaking.


Sorry about the delay in replying! Work and timezone differences are a pain..,

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Yeah, that could be cool thematically. I can post a quick progression for that one too (modified from the above), if you'd like.

That would be great :) At least I'd know where to start looking - I'm starting to realise that I'm really bad at spotting the good options!

Deadmanwalking wrote:
I think it's more swapping tabards and helmets at that point. Or making use of Glamered armor. You don't actually get to swap into armor at super-speed, you just switch identities. Still super-handy for your nobleman in glistening plate to suddenly be in hulking grey Hellknight armor (via a bit of darkening and an added helmet), though.

Hmm. Gonna have to figure out a good answer for all that - Hellknight plate is too distinctive for its own good.

I guess it's human or aasimar based on whichever theme grabs me most then, I guess! I can always grab kinslayer as a human maybe - humanity is weak, that sorta thing.

Liberty's Edge

BrazenRogue wrote:
Sorry about the delay in replying! Work and timezone differences are a pain..,

I feel your pain.

BrazenRogue wrote:
That would be great :) At least I'd know where to start looking - I'm starting to realise that I'm really bad at spotting the good options!

Sure. See below.

BrazenRogue wrote:
Hmm. Gonna have to figure out a good answer for all that - Hellknight plate is too distinctive for its own good.

I was serous about the Glamered. By 9th, when I'd advise you getting full Hellknight Armor, you can afford to make it Glamered. which is a flat 5k, but very worth it.

BrazenRogue wrote:
I guess it's human or aasimar based on whichever theme grabs me most then, I guess! I can always grab kinslayer as a human maybe - humanity is weak, that sorta thing.

That'd work, yeah.

So, Psychometrist Build:

Str 18 (16+2)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 14

Traits:
Chelish Nobility (only okay mechanically, but very in-theme), and either Reactionary or Resilient.

Feats:

1: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Power Attack, Psychic Sensitivity,
3: Weapon Focus
4: Dazzling Display
5: Hurtful
7: Cornugon Smash

And after that, Feats are (as the previous build) pretty much up to you...though Iron will is a good call, IMO.

Vigilante Talents:

3: Social Graces
4: Shield of Blades
5: Renown
7: Quick Change
8: Inspired Vigilante
9: Great Renown
10: Perfect Vulnerability
11: Incredible Renown
13: Instant Change
14: Mad Rush

Focus Powers:

2: Transmutation (Legacy Weapon)
6: Abjuration (Mind Barrier), Transmutation (Size Alteration or Sudden Speed)
12: Divination (Sudden Insight), Abjuration (Unraveling), Transmutation (Mind Over Gravity),

So, what those focus powers allow is as follows:

At 2nd, you can enhance a weapon to have +1 enhancement bonus...or, if it's already magical, any equivalent ability (flaming, shocking, merciful, etc.) The standout example is Bane. Which, if you know the creature type of what you're fighting adds +2 to hit and +2 +2d6 damage (for +9 damage average). you'll have 3 uses at 2nd, and more later, and they last 1 minute each (about as long as a fight takes). At 6th and 12th this bonus gets better, though you can still only add one ability, and Bane remains the best.

At 6th, you also gain the ability to negate damage from attacks, and to either Enlarge or Reduce people or move at really ridiculous speeds. Sadly, these come from the same pool of points as the 2nd level ability, and you only have 5 points to use at this level (6 with a Headband of Intelligence, a good idea). So...I'd keep at least 4 points invested in weapon boosting, personally.

At 12th, your pool has hit 8 (9-10 with a Headband), and you can also use it for flight, targeted Dispel Magic, or a +6 bonus on almost any roll.

You have to invest it into particular uses at the beginning of the day, though, much like prepping spells, so pick carefully. The Extra Mental Focus Feat is available, however, gives two additional points, and seems like a very good choice to me.

So...yeah. You lose some stuff, but maintain Avenger for BAB and get some pseudo-casting which is a solid choice.

Liberty's Edge

It occurs to me that the Renown Talents may or may not work in this particular game. Check with your GM whether you'll be sticking around in one place for long stretches. Not the whole campaign, but weeks at a time minimum

If not, those three Talents might get replaced (Many Guises and Everyman could replace two, if you wanted).


Thanks man, that does look interesting. I'll have to weigh up the pros and cons of trying something a tad more complicated - I've yet to play Pathfinder beyond the Beginner Box, and I don't think I ever got past level three in 3.5!

There's a lot to be said for diving right in though, and having a build outline makes things way less intimidating :)

Deadmanwalking wrote:

It occurs to me that the Renown Talents may or may not work in this particular game. Check with your GM whether you'll be sticking around in one place for long stretches. Not the whole campaign, but weeks at a time minimum

If not, those three Talents might get replaced (Many Guises and Everyman could replace two, if you wanted).

I think the campaign is fairly localised - it's the new Hell's Vengeance one. DM only has the first book so far, so it's anyone's guess what comes next.

Looking at the Renown requirements and the player's guide though, it does look fairly likely.

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