What feats to grab for an Orc Bloodline Sorcerer?


Advice


I have a sorcerer that starts as a fire caster/buffer and eventually sky rockets into a melee fighter towards higher levels due to the orc bloodline's powers + normal buffs. Because this is a unique build that I haven't seen fleshed out in a post before... I'm having a hard time picking feats and I need help! I'm also new so that doesn't help my cause.

What I'm asking for are feats that will positively affect both casting and combat or benefit from either and help the other. For instance: Arcane strike is a perfect example. Are there other feats like this?


Eldritch Heritage (pre requisit skill focus survival (for orc), CHA 13, Character level 3)

Improved Eldritch Heritage (pre requisit Eldritch Heritage, CHA 15, Character level 11)

Greater Eldritch Heritage (pre reqisit Improved Eldritch Heritage, CHA 17, Character level 17)

EDIT: Sorry, i misunderstood your question, never mind me.
What you might want to do is to consider looking in to the prestige class dragon disciple, it might give you more options , but you would sacrifice your bloodline progression.

EDIT: You COULD go with draconic bloodline into dragon disciple, with the eldritch heritage feats on the side with orc bloodline, doing something akin do a dual bloodline character. Gaining the full benefit of the dragon bloodline and losing only the capstone ability of the orc bloodline. But this might be subject to GM scrutiny and i have no clue if its PFS legal.


At higher levels the poor BAB is going to outweigh the orc strength buff by a lot. You might be able to keep relevant by polymorphing into something really big; which means you're fighting in the form of a huge animal or similar, so plan for that.

Quicken Spell works for both types of combat. Arcane Strike doesn't age well BTW, but you may want Riving Strike to upgrade that feat if you don't retrain it. Improved Initiative is useful for most styles of fighting. Raging Blood might be handy too.


Tribal Scars would give you a big boost in HP and an increase to Fortitude if you choose the right option.


Thanks for the advice guys.I'm set on the orc bloodline route. Tribal scars looks promising.

As for BAB, no issues there. Transformation gives me a fighters BAB. These rest of the buffs fill in str, con and armor nicely.

I've made a spreadsheet for the max buff potential from the bloodline if you're interested and it is as follows:

Str: +20
Con: +10
Dex: -4
BAB = Your level and can attack multiple times

Then there is the armor, saves, attack roll, speed boost from haste, damage reduction, size and random buffs like things that an iron body gives.I don't need more buffs to get into battle, I need battle enhancing feats or spells. Arcane spell being the main example.

Should I just lookup feats people grab for fighters or barbarians?


Where are you getting these numbers from? Sorcerer is a 1/2 BAB class.


If you take a look at the orc bloodline page, you will see all of the buffs they get. The one that gives the BAB modification is Transformation. (I said this in my post above)


Here is the sheet adding up the current set of buffs. Some are missing like haste because they don't add stats:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BxviDXklmpE4nwKqZY0yudmZd4qAk6VteuG 4cOUPAfw/edit?usp=docslist_api


Oh, right, transformation. That's a 6th level spell, though, and it deactivates your spellcasting while it is active. You shouldn't plan a build around a spell that you only get at 11th level unless you're starting at or close to 11th level.

Liberty's Edge

I have a very similar character that I leveled through PFS play. He's level 14 now and finishing Reborn Forge.

You can check him out here.


Yeah, the build is mostly fire, buffs and control until mid and higher levels when he can hulk out. However, that doesn't change the question at hand. I want to prepare and would wondered if people had any other ideas on feats that synergize with such a build.

Liberty's Edge

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It depends on how you want to build him. I made Marduk extra beefy because I wanted him to hold his own when his magic wasn't an option. If you want your magic to be front and center you should pick up elemental focus, greater elemental focus, spell penetration, and greater spell penetration. Around 7th level you'll want intensify and by 11th you should consider quicken.


Thanks feral ! Robe of arcane heritage looks awesome!

I noticed you got a beast form II. Is this how you went into combat before getting transformation? If not, what helped you get into combat earlier?

And yeah, I want this guy focusing on melee as soon as possible, with all of my magic spells as backup options for times when they are more useful for the situation.

Intensify spell - Is this strictly for burning hands? I don't see that it affects much else.

Any other key things that made a huge difference with the build?

Last, how did he end up playing out in combat?

Liberty's Edge

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I started with a barbarian dip for the big level 1 HD and the early combat boost.

Beast form II is actually for the utility. I didn't like the flavor of a mighty orc-blooded sorcerer flying around with the fly spell but shapeshifting into a powerful beast felt like a better fit. Beast form II lets you get a fly speed, swim speed, climb speed, etc as needed. Occasionally I've fought as a grizzly bear but more often than not when I need to mix it up in melee I just hit things with my falchion.

Intensify is for burning hands, burning arc, and later fireball. Burning arc is actually his bread and butter combat spell.

Power of Giants makes you a combat beast. With the robe of eldritch heritage you can get it as soon as level 11.

Here's his level up progression. The spells might not be 100% accurate but it should give you a good idea of how things went.

Out of combat he doesn't contribute much. He only get 2 skill points per level and the sorcerer skill list isn't terribly exciting. I intentionally didn't take any spells that are super useful for troubleshooting (see my bit above about flavor) but I could have spared a few slots for things like fly and dimension door.

Liberty's Edge

Other Notes:

* I invested almost no cash into melee stuff except maintaining a strength belt. I bought a masterwork weapon at level 2 and didn't get a new weapon until 13 (I bought a adamantine falchion for Reborn Forge). Once you get greater magic weapon you can rely on that to buff your weapon(s) and barkskin via ring of spell knowledge replaces an amulet of natural armor. Otherwise my cash was spent on defensive items and caster stuff, metamagic rods mostly.

* You don't need a super high charisma to make this build viable or fun. I started with a 12 and bought charisma headband upgrades as necessary. My save DCs are low but most of the time enemies that take half damage are still badly hurt by my spells. The only problem is enemies with evasion but that just means it's time to lay the smack down in melee. =P

A friend in my local PFS group built a similar character but without the melee backup option and a sky high charisma instead. Enemies failed his saves a lot more often but when he was faced with fire-immune enemies he was left sitting on his thumbs.

* Sometimes it's best to be a buff bot. Eventually you're going to fight flying fire-immune demons that want to maintain distance or something that's immune to magic and has silly high AC. In that case, there's no shame in standing next to the fighter while he gets his backup bow out and spamming touch of rage on him. With the robe, the morale bonus you give out is nuts and even dabbling archers can lay down the hurt.


I think natural attacks might be nice for a 1/2 BAB class since they aren't as affected by BAB.


Feral,

Have you thought about picking up the skilled trait from humans to get one more point per level? Not sure how much that matters to you.

Even better is the human favored class for sorcerer. One extra spell known per level! I'm going that route because I don't see the extra fire damage from the orc favored sorcerer to add much. I'll get a huge utility boost from this. Thoughts?

And so just to make sure I understand- the biggest thing I can do before getting to level 11 for giants is to dip into barbarian? What exactly does that give?

And if I do focus more on melee, what could I do to increase my saves for spells ? Perhaps that is the easier route to go.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, Marduk has skilled. With it he gets a mighty 2 skill points per level. =P

Barbarian is nice for early levels because of rage. With extra rage and the trait you're looking at 14-15 rounds of rage per day. That should be plenty to get you through most adventuring days assuming you're at least somewhat smart with it.

For saves, rage helps. It gives +2 to fort and will. Being a half-orc with sacred tattoos and fate's favored is another +2 to all saves.


Sorry, I meant is it possible to get a higher spell DC?

Liberty's Edge

Oh. Well you've only got a couple options: higher charisma or spell focus/greater spell focus. It just depends on how much you want to take away from your ability to fight in melee.


Ok. That's exactly what I needed to know.

Level per level, how did your melee compare to the other melee fighters in your party, and how often were you casting instead of meleeing?

Liberty's Edge

You're never going to compete with an optimized melee character but you'll do plenty to be viable in melee. Leveling up he played a lot alongside an optimized ranger and he did 30-40% of his damage in melee.

Currently, at level 14, he's playing alongside a non-optimized cavalier and different melee ranger and he does closer to 90-100% of their damage in melee.

I'd estimate I spend 3/4 of my time spellcasting in combat even when it's not fully optimal (such as fighting things with fire resistance or spell resistance). I really only go into melee when we're faced with enemies that are fully immune to magic, immune to fire, or have evasion.


Hmm ok. I was hoping for higher damage from the combination of transformation, giants and any other buffs.

Since I'm still new and learning, what specifically makes the pure, optimized melee fighters do so much more damage?

Also, what were you starting stats? Is it possible to start with high cha to keep a good DC but get all str items? Not super familiar with all of the items yet.


I'm surprised you never considered the Cross-Blooded archetype to acquire the Draconic Bloodline to go into Dragon Disciple. Although only 3/4 BAB (better than 1/2 BAB), it's shored up by granting a +4 Bonus to Strength that stacks with everything else, plus you gain Natural Armor, Wings, a Breath Weapon, and you can turn into a giant Dragon to beat the crap out of things.


Main reason I didn't go that route is that buffs from the orc bloodline are pretty damn strong, and I don't like dragons. Mostly a flavor thing I guess. Orc strong, orc fire!

I'm still wondering how pure melee classes can do so much more damage even when fully buffed with 20 extra strength and 1/1 BAB.

Grand Lodge

Hamburglin wrote:

Main reason I didn't go that route is that buffs from the orc bloodline are pretty damn strong, and I don't like dragons. Mostly a flavor thing I guess. Orc strong, orc fire!

I'm still wondering how pure melee classes can do so much more damage even when fully buffed with 20 extra strength and 1/1 BAB.

Action economy to buff up at the start of the combat and lots of feats


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Re the original post: Ravingdork has a build along these lines it might be worth checking out if you're looking for feat advice (search for "Roshgog" in Ravingdork's Character Emporium).

It's not as fearsome in melee as the 15th martial builds by Ravingdork. But it's a good guide to how this sort of thing might be done.

EDIT: Link here.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hamburglin wrote:

Main reason I didn't go that route is that buffs from the orc bloodline are pretty damn strong, and I don't like dragons. Mostly a flavor thing I guess. Orc strong, orc fire!

I'm still wondering how pure melee classes can do so much more damage even when fully buffed with 20 extra strength and 1/1 BAB.

There are lots of variables and things to twiddle with, but here's a comparison between two of Ravingdork's builds: Roshgog (a 15th level crossblooded sorcerer with orc and dragon bloodlines, who's likely a bit stronger than the build you're envisioning), and a tweaked and leveled-up version of Lord James Mycen (a 13th level fighter).

1. Lord James Mycen is a fancy shield-bashing two weapon fighter, but let's turn him into a boring ordinary fighter for ease of comparison:

--Replace the Bashing property of his shield with an extra +1 enhancement bonus.

--Replace the shield-bashing feats: Greater Bull Rush, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam, Stumbling Bash, Toppling Bash, Two Weapon Fighting, Shield Master

With: Greater Shield Focus, Weapon Focus (longsword), Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (longsword), Critical Focus, Dodge, Staggering Critical

He's built at 13th level, so to compare him to Roshgog, let's advance him two levels, adding:

--Feats: Critical Mastery, Blinding Critical

--Items: Boost belt of giant strength to +6 (+32k), boost the amulet of natural armor to +4 (+30k), boost the ring of protection to +4 (24k), buy a pink rhomboid ioun stone (5k), and use the remaining 9k on whatever (probably a handy haversack with useful potions, like fly, heroism, energy resistance, see invisibility, darkvision, and the like).

--And the appropriate fighter class features (like another level of armor mastery, which allows him to get his full dex bonus to AC).

So pre-buffs, boots of speed, or anything else, Lord James comes in at:
--Defense: AC: 52, with DR 6/-
--Offense: Keen +3 Adamantine Longsword +30/+25/+20 (1d8+17 (17-20; +4 to confirm criticals, staggering, blinding))

2. Roshgog is already 15th level. To help Roshgog along, we'll assume that Roshgog has 2 free rounds to buff himself before combat begins, and he'll use his Power of Giants ability and the Transformation spell. (Form of the Dragon II is likely a better choice, but Transformation is what you described yourself as wanting to employ, so we'll go with that.)

Power of Giants adds +2 to hit (+3 str, -1 size), +3 to damage (+3 str), a net +2 to AC (+4 size bonus to natural armor, -1 size, -1 dex), and they increase the damage die of his natural attacks. Transformation doesn't add anything to his ability scores or armor class (since all of usual Transformation bonuses don't stack with the enhancement and natural armor bonuses Roshgog already has), but it does increase his BAB to +15, which grants him a +8 to hit.

So post-Power of Giants and Transformation, Roshgog comes in at:
--Defense: AC 39
--Offense: Bite +24 (1d6+10), 2 Claws +24 (1d8+10+1d6 fire).

3. Lord James and Roshgog enter melee. Roshgog can only hit Lord James with a natural 20. (Indeed, even if Roshgog were to find an additional +8 to hit from various sources, he would still need a natural 20.) And any hits Roshgog manages to make need to get past James's DR 6/-.

Lord James, on the other hand, will hit 1-2 times a round. Ordinary hits will do about 20 damage, and 20% of the time he'll inflict a critical, doing about 40 damage, with a chance to both stagger and blind Roshgog.

Now, one can vary the details here -- Roshgog might cast Heroism on himself ahead of time, and maybe obtain a few other buffs; Lord James might activate his Boots of Speed, and drink some potions (Heroism, Fly, etc). But it should be clear that Roshgog is outclassed in a toe-to-toe fight.

4. If Roshgog doesn't engage in a toe-to-toe fight (and doesn't do something -- like cast Transformation -- which robs him of his spellcasting abilities), then things will look quite different. With the right spell selection, a 15th level spellcaster is going to be more than a match again any martial character.

But you were asking how a purely martial character could be so much better than a buffed sorcerer in melee combat. So there's your answer!

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