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I am unsure which forum to put this in. If any moderator feels I have put this in the incorrect forum, please feel free to move it as you see fit. I simply wanted to say my piece and state my reasoning in a manor that Paizo employees might see and consider. I do not wish to overstep my bounds, but simply want to make my thoughts on the matter known.
As this has come up in the boards recently, many are wondering: can a magical child's familiar take an archetype? On the one hand, many think that they cannot, as the improved familiar feat does not allow for most archetypes (most archetypes require the loss of the 'speak with animals of it's own kind' ability, which improved familiars trade out.) However, the magical child never gains the improved familiar feat as such. Instead:
At 3rd level, the magical child's familiar reveals another aspect of its form, and its vigilante identity changes into a creature on the Improved Familiar list that would be available to a 3rd-level spellcaster (the animal guide's social identity always remains as the original normal animal).
Implying that a familiar doesn't so much 'become' an improved familiar as 'gain the statistics of an improved familiar.'
Why archtyping should be allowed from a game-rules perspective: The familiar, as far as I can tell, never loses any abilities from transforming. Instead it "changes into a creature on the Improved familiar list." As I understand it, a 'normal' Mongoose familiar that transforms with their magical child still has all the normal bonuses, including a +2 bonus to fort saves and the ability to speak with normal mongooses (when it hits the appropriate level.) We aren't breaking any rules here, at least as-written. Your familiar simply shifts alignment (like you do) and gains different statistics.
Why archtyping should be allowed from a metagame perspective: The magical child seems to be the weakest of the spellcasting archetypes without this boost. The spell list they are given access to is diminished by the fact that many of the spells are useless to them (as they don't have an eidolon.) Other archtypes gain access to solid spell lists (inquisitor, witch up to level 6, sorc/wizard up to level 6), leaving the magical child in poor shape comparatively. Unable to dish out the energy blasts that the inspiration for this class is known for, nor provide soothing healing that the inspiration is also known for.
Furthermore, giving up their vigilante specialization for (essentially) a feat that can be used only half the time is simply lackluster (even with, essentially, free retraining at five and seven) when compared to what the other spellcasting archetypes get (bleed equal to level, an inquisition, a psudo kinetic blast+kinetic blade, etc.) The small boost that the familiar gets (DR/Magic) is not enough, I don't think, to make up for the lack of oomph this class has going for it. What would really help is the ability to customize your familiar to a role that can best suit your magical child (a protector familiar for an up-front fighter, a mascot for a support character, a valet for a character who wants to be able to spread spells across the battlefield.)
To any Paizo employee who has taken the time to read this, I thank you for your time and consideration. I also wish to thank you for making such a fun and entertaining game that my friends play over and over again, and don't wish to seem ungrateful. I simply wish to relay to you my thinking when it comes to this particular subject.
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From my understanding the improved familiar feat allows the choice from the improved familiar options when obtaining a familiar.
This ability is replicating that choice but doesn't count as the improved familiar feat.
Separate from that benefit we have the rules for improved familiars which says:
Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature's type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).
Not having the feat hasn't circumvented these rules as far as I can tell even though they appear in the feat. They are a rules text reminder separate from the benefit of the feat.
For reference the other archetypes with similar abilities which grant improved familiars without granting the feat are the Chosen One Paladin and Pact Wizard both from Familiar Folio.
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From my understanding the improved familiar feat allows the choice from the improved familiar options when obtaining a familiar.
This ability is replicating that choice but doesn't count as the improved familiar feat.
Separate from that benefit we have the rules for improved familiars which says:
Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature's type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).Not having the feat hasn't circumvented these rules as far as I can tell even though they appear in the feat. They are a rules text reminder separate from the benefit of the feat.
For reference the other archetypes with similar abilities which grant improved familiars without granting the feat are the Chosen One Paladin and Pact Wizard both from Familiar Folio.
I see your point, however, I would argue:
1) The archetypes you mentioned both involve the familiar permanently becoming another creature. While the Magical Child wording is, admittedly, ambiguous, it seems to be more along the lines of 'the familiar gains the statistics of another creature.' than 'the familiar permanently becomes another creature.'2) All my metagame arguments still stand. The unchained summoner spell list is not very good for characters without access to an eidolon, and what Magical Children gain for giving up Vigilante specialization is likewise not very good when compared to other classes (which usually get a much more powerful ability, AND new optional talents to make up for the fact that they aren't allowed to take avenger OR stalker-only talents.)
Familiars, even improved familiars, are simply not that good. They are the equivalent of two feats (Familiar Bond, Improved Familiar). They do not make up for the loss of such a powerful class skill as Vigilante specialization IMO. The ability to at least customize your familiar to be able to take on the role you need it to would really boost this archetype to 'solvent' as I see it. Hence my open letter.
And yes, I know that the familiars gain the startling appearance/startling appearance abilities, but not only is that NOT very 'magical girl-esque' but it downright doesn't work for most builds. Without archtypes, your familiar is not going to be able to do much with a full-round attack that it couldn't do with a standard attack, and really, most of them do no damage anyway. And good luck with your tiny-sized familiar trying to intimidate with that -8 size penalty.
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Pretty much every class has these 'implied feats' included. The class descriptions include phrases like proficient 'with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).' They don't say the class gains Light Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency and Tower Shield Proficiency, but that's clearly what it means.
The way I read it, the granted Improved Familiar is equivalent to this.
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@Jared Thaler So, when my familiar transforms, he actually makes me LESS powerful as he takes away his familiar bonus (in other words, my Mongoose familiar takes back his +2 to fortitude saves when I become a vigilante?) Why would I EVER transform then?
@Matt Lewis: Yes, gaining 'armor proficiency' is the same as the feat for armor proficiency, but that's not what we are talking about here. When you cast Monstrous Physique to become a gargoyle, do you suddenly loose your Elven immunity to sleep? Does a halfling druid that Beast Shapes themselves suddenly loose their 'helpful halfling' trait? The issue is that the familiar temporarily changes, and can change back, and that they don't 'become' an improved familiar, but that their 'identity' changes into a creature that appears on the improved familiar list.
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@Jared Thaler So, when my familiar transforms, he actually makes me LESS powerful as he takes away his familiar bonus (in other words, my Mongoose familiar takes back his +2 to fortitude saves when I become a vigilante?) Why would I EVER transform then?
You trade a feat (Great Fortitude) for a feat (improved familiar)
How is that getting weaker?
The issue is that the familiar temporarily changes, and can change back, and that they don't 'become' an improved familiar, but that their 'identity' changes into a creature that appears on the improved familiar list.
You *really* don't want to use that line of logic.
If you argue that they just *appear* to change, like a polymorph effect then:
At 3rd level, the magical child's familiar reveals another aspect of its form
In other words, it is not an familiar that *appears* to transform into an improved familiar. It is an improved familiar that has only been *appearing* to be a regular familiar.
In which case, since you are arguing that the changed appearance does not change whether it grants +2 fortitude or it's ability to speak with it's own kind, and since it is an improved familiar that only appears to be an ordinary familiar, it *never* grants +2 fortitude, and it *never* gets speak with own kind, even when pretending to be a normal animal familiar.
In other words, congratulations. You just created a compelling argument to do the exact *opposite* of what you want them to do...
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2) All my metagame arguments still stand. The unchained summoner spell list is not very good for characters without access to an eidolon,
I don't understand this logic.
The (PFS) summoner spell list (through level 4). Eidolon specific spells are in italics.
(List courtesy of Archive of Nethys
0-Level Spells
Acid Splash: Orb deals 1d3 acid damage.
Arcane Mark: Inscribes a personal rune on an object or creature (visible or invisible).
Daze: Humanoid creature of 4 HD or less loses next action.
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Guidance: +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Light: Object shines like a torch.
Mage Hand: 5-pound telekinesis.
Mending: Makes minor repairs on an object.
Message: Whisper conversation at distance.
Open/Close: Opens or closes small or light things.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
1st-Level Spells
Alarm: Wards an area for 2 hours/level.
Ant Haul: Triples carrying capacity of a creature.
Blurred Movement: As blur, but only while you are moving.
Compel Hostility: Compels opponents to attack you instead of your allies.
Corrosive Touch: Touch attack deals 1d4 acid/level.
Daze Monster: Living creature of 6 HD or less loses next action.
Detect Metal: Detect metal objects or creatures.
Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold regions.
Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size.
Expeditious Retreat: Your base land speed increases by 30 ft.
Feather Fall: Objects or creatures fall slowly.
Glue Seal: Makes one 5-ft. square or one object sticky.
Grease: Makes 10-ft. square or one object slippery.
Hanspur’s Flotsam Vessel: Assemble a sturdy raft and oars from driftwood, reeds, and other river debris.
Icicle Dagger: Masterwork ice dagger deals +1 cold damage.
Identify: Gives +10 bonus to identify magic items.
Infernal Healing: Give someone fast healing 1 for a minute, at the cost of a temporary evil alignment.
Jump: Subject gets bonus on Acrobatics checks.
Jury-Rig: Removes the broken condition from the targeted object.
Life Conduit: You are bound even tighter to your eidolon than normal, and may share hit points with it through your life link ability.
Lighten Object: Decrease the target’s weight by half or reduce the armor check penalty of armor.
Long Arm: Your arms lengthen, giving you extra reach.
Lucky Number: Tweak tiny variables in a creature’s immediate future.
Mage Armor: Gives subject +4 armor bonus.
Magic Fang: One natural weapon of subject creature gets +1 on attack and damage rolls.
Magic Mouth: Objects speaks once when triggered.
Mount: Summons riding horse for 2 hours/level.
Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you.
Protection from Chaos: +2 to AC and saves, plus additional protection against selected alignment.
Protection from Evil: +2 to AC and saves, plus additional protection against selected alignment.
Protection from Good: +2 to AC and saves, plus additional protection against selected alignment.
Protection from Law: +2 to AC and saves, plus additional protection against selected alignment.
Ray of Sickening: Ray makes subject sickened.
Reduce Person: Humanoid creature halves in size.
Rejuvenate Eidolon, Lesser: Eidolon cured 1d10 damage +1/level (max +5).
Shield: Invisible disc gives +4 to AC, blocks magic missiles.
Snowball: Conjure a hard packed ball of ice and snow to throw.
Stone Shield: Summon a thick stone slab from the ground to shield you from attacks.
Summon Minor Monster: Summon 1d3 Tiny animals.
Summon Monster 1: Summons extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Unfetter: Remove distance restriction on eidolon.
Unseen Servant: Invisible force obeys your commands.
Ventriloquism: Throws voice for 1 min./level.
2nd-Level Spells
Alter Self: Assume form of a Small or Medium humanoid.
Ant Haul, Communal: As ant haul, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Barkskin: Grants +2 (or higher) enhancement to natural armor.
Bear's Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Blood Armor: Your blood hardens when you are wounded, increasing your AC.
Blur: Attacks miss subject 20% of the time.
Bull's Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Cat's Grace: Subject gains +4 to Dex for 1 min./level.
Create PitF: Creates an extradimensional pit.
Cushioning Bands: Force bands protect against crushing.
Detect Thoughts: Allows “listening” to surface thoughts.
Eagle's Splendor: Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
Evolution Surge, Lesser: Grants eidolon an evolution with 2 evolution points.
Fog Cloud: Fog obscures vision.
Force Anchor: Skewer and anchor incorporeal targets with a force anchor.
Fox's Cunning: Subject gains +4 to Int for 1 min./level.
Ghost Wolf: Summon a wolf mount made of black smoke which emanates fear.
Glide: You take no falling damage and move 60 ft./round while falling.
Glitterdust: Blinds creatures, outlines invisible creatures.
Invisibility: Subject is invisible for 1 min./level or until it attacks.
Levitate: Subject moves up and down at your direction.
Misdirection: Misleads divinations for one creature or object.
Mount, Communal: As mount, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Owl's Wisdom: Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Phantom Steed: Magic horse appears for 1 hour/level.
Planetarium: Project a current image of the nighty sky in places you would normally be unable to view it.
Protection from Arrows: Subject gains DR 10/magic against ranged attacks.
Protection from Chaos, Communal: As protection from chaos, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Protection from Evil, Communal: As protection from evil, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Protection from Good, Communal: As protection from good, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Protection from Law, Communal: As protection from law, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Resist Energy: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
Restore Eidolon, Lesser: Lesser restoration for an eidolon.
See Invisibility: Reveals invisible creatures or objects.
Spider ClimbY: Grants ability to walk on walls and ceilings.
Summon Cacodaemon: Summon a cacodaemon.
Summon Eidolon: Instantly summons your eidolon for duration of spell.
Summon Monster 2: Summons extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Swarm: Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders.
Time Shudder: Nearby creatures are affected by haste or slow each round.
Twisted Space: Targeted creature's attacks target a random square instead of the intended target.
Warding Weapon: The weapon you use for the focus of this spell defends you, allowing you to cast spells without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Web Shelter: Create a comfortable shelter made of webbing.
Whip of Spiders: Create a whip made of poisonous spiders.
3rd-Level Spells
Ablative Barrier: Surrounds the target with layers of force.
Air Breathing: Allow creatures to breathe air.
Aqueous Orb: Creates rolling sphere of water.
Bite the Hand: Compel a summoned creature to attack its summoner.
Collaborative Thaumaturgy: Apply a metamagic property to an ally’s spell.
Control Summoned Creature: Direct a summoned monster as if you had summoned it.
Devolution: An eidolon temporarily loses 1 evolution +1/five levels.
Dispel Magic: Cancels one magical spell or effect.
Displacement: Attacks miss subject 50% of the time.
Evolution Surge: Grants eidolon an evolution with 4 evolution points.
Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft.
Haste: One creature/level moves faster, receives +1 on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves.
Heroism: Gives +2 on attack rolls, saves, skill checks.
Invisibility Sphere: Makes everyone within 10 feet invisible.
Life Conduit, Improved: Transfers 2d6 hit points to your eidolon as a swift action.
Mad Monkeys: Summon a swarm of mischievous monkeys.
Magic Circle against Chaos: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
Magic Circle against Evil: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
Magic Circle against Good: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
Magic Circle against Law: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
Magic Fang, Greater: One natural weapon gets + 1/four levels (max +5).
Marionette Possession: As magic jar, but limited to line of sight.
Minor Creation: Creates one cloth or wood object.
Night of Blades: Create an immobile wall of tiny black blades.
Nondetection: Hides subject from divination, scrying.
Pellet Blast: Creates an explosion of conjured metal pellets.
Phantom Steed, Communal: As phantom steed, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Protection from Arrows, Communal: As protection from arrows, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Rage: Gives +2 to Str and Con, +1 on Will saves, –2 to AC.
Rain of Frogs: Summon a swarm of poisonous frogs.
Rejuvenate Eidolon: As lesser rejuvenate eidolon, but cures 3d10 damage +1/level (max +10).
Resist Energy, Communal: As resist energy, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Restore Eidolon: Restoration for an eidolon.
Seek Thoughts: Detects thinking creatures' thoughts.
Shared Sacrifice: Create a link to the target and direct pain and damage through it.
Shield Companion: As shield other, but affecting your companion creature.
Siphon Might: Drain strength from a creature and transfer it to another.
Slow: One subject/level takes only one action/round, –1 to AC, Reflex saves, and attack rolls.
Spider Climb, Communal: As spider climb, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Spiked Pit: As create pit, but filled with spikes.
Stinking Cloud: Nauseating vapors, 1 round/level.
Summon Cacodaemon, Greater: Summon 1d4+1 cacodaemons.
Summon Monster 4: Summons extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Totem Creature (Shoanti): Summon animals sacred to your tribe.
Swarm of Fangs: Summon a swarm of animated, flying teeth.
Tongues: Speak and understand any language.
Water Breathing: Subjects can breathe underwater.
Wind Wall: Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases.
4th-Level Spells
Acid Pit: Creates a pit with a layer of acid on the bottom.
Adjustable Polymorph: As alter self, but you can change the shape as a swift action.
Agonize: Pain encourages an outsider to obey you.
Baphomet's Blessing: Transmute the target’s head into that of a bull.
Black Tentacles: Tentacles grapple all creatures within a 20-ft. spread.
Calm Air: Reduce the strength of wind in an area.
Caustic Blood: Imbue your blood with corrosive acid, damaging those who wound you.
Charm Monster: Makes monster believe it is your ally.
Creeping Ice: Sheet of ice slowly spreads outward on a horizontal surface.
Damnation Stride: As dimension door, except you leave behind a burst of flame.
Daze, Mass: As daze, but affecting multiple creatures.
Dimension Door: Teleports you a short distance.
Dimensional Anchor: Bars extradimensional movement.
Enlarge Person, Mass: 1 humanoid creature/level doubles in size.
Evolution Surge, Greater: Grants eidolon two evolutions with a total of 6 evolution points.
Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you're protected from heat or cold.
Infernal Healing, Greater: As infernal healing, except using fast healing 4.
Invisibility, Greater: As invisibility, but subject can attack and stay invisible.
Locate Creature: Indicates direction to known creature.
Major Creation: As minor creation, plus stone and metal.
Nixie's Lure: Create a seductive song to lure all nearby creatures.
Obsidian Flow: Converts the surface of the ground into molten glass.
Protection from Energy, Communal: As protection from energy, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Purified Calling: Eidolon summoned is fully healed.
Reboot: Bring a destroyed construct back to action for a limited time.
Reduce Person, Mass: As reduce person, but affects 1 humanoid creature/level.
Skeleton Crew: Turn corpses into obedient skeleton crew.
Solid Fog: Blocks vision and slows movement.
Stoneskin: Grants DR 10/adamantine.
Summon Ceustodaemon: Summon a ceustodaemon.
Summon Lesser Psychopomp: Summon 1d3 esobok psychopomps or 1d4+1 nosoi psychopomps.
Summon Monster 5: Summons extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Stampede: Conjure a herd of aurochs to trample your enemies.
Summoner Conduit: The target takes damage whenever its summoned creature does.
Tongues, Communal: As tongues, but you may divide the duration among creatures touched.
Transmogrify: Change your eidolon's evolutions.
Vitriolic Mist: As fire shield, except acid damage.
Wall of Fire: Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall deals 2d6 damage +1/level.
Wall of Ice: Ice plane creates wall or hemisphere creates dome.
That is a pretty solid buff / debuff / battlefield control list.
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As a primary caster, though, the Summoner relies on his Eidolon for much of his offense, or his summons in place of the eidolon.
The Magical Child has a guide. The spells, while nice buffs, are not very good at direct offense and she herself has abilities not intuitive to doing much outside of looking cute.
The offensive direct damage spells that are there is likely the spells that 9-10 Magical Childs will have.
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2) All my metagame arguments still stand. The unchained summoner spell list is not very good for characters without access to an eidolon,I don't understand this logic.
The (PFS) summoner spell list (through level 4). Eidolon specific spells are in italics.
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The whole point here is.... without archetypes for the familiar, the magical child is a poor archetype.
Check over those spells again and look at what levels they are gained. That factor alone severely mitigates the usefulness of the spells and the Magical Child at any particular level. It's not bad for half of a class(IE the summoner part of the unchained summoner is about half of the class, the eidolon/summons are the other).
I mean, you can pretty much drop any of the summon monster spells as combat spells. They can still be useful, but not as a replacement for having offensive abilities.
Basically, without an archetype for the familiar the magical child is about half an unchained summoner. And has very little in combat potential. Though, does still gain some of the vigilante traits.
With a familiar archetype, the familiar can faux an eidolon but with more limitations and less chances for upgrades.
Even still, not great. But at least it would have a chance to be effective in combat.
Especially considering there is still the heavy fine involved with bringing a familiar back to life which the archetype does not mitigate.
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In fact, I'd suggest that they leave the spells the spells that affect eidolons but are not eidolon specific. Like Life Conduit.
This along with the familiar having an archetype would be a decent enough boost to make the class useful.
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I would have to see the rest of the class, but why are you saying summon monster is irrelevant? Assuming she is getting the same spell progression as summoner, she is getting summon monster 2 one level after wizards, she is getting summon monster 4 at the same level they are, and a level before sorcerers get it.
Assuming they haven't changed the base stats from the playtest, she has 6+Int skills, to the summoners 2, 2 good saves to the summoners 1, martial weapon proficiency and medium armor and shield, compared to the summoners simple and light. Her familiar gets to share her skill ranks, so at 8th level (for example) it gets 48 + 8xInt skill ranks, as opposed to 24.
Yes, it cannot fulfill the disposible combat meat puppet role that a summoner's eidolon can, but this would make a pretty solid skill monkey / buffer / archer.
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Okay, finally found the vigilante write up on d20pfsrd.
Hmm... So the magical girl gets 4+ skill, not 6, that is a disappointment.
On the other hand losing specialization does *not* cut out 2/3 or the talents, it cuts out less than half (18 out of 46)
Magical child gets to upgrade it's familiar to anything on the list at 5th, and 7th, and at 9th it gets to switch freely between all 4. So you basically have 4 different familiars to chose from.
The familiar gets stunning appearance, so since a bunch of improved familiars get invisibility at will, you can always render your foe flat footed.
Lets look at it going the other direction. What if we do give them access to archtypes.
Silvanshee with Mauler archtype
90 foot fly, pounce, 16 str (24 for 1 minute per say) 3 attacks, It looses speak with animals of it's kind and speak with master, but that doesn't matter much because it has Languages Celestial, Draconic, Infernal; speak with animals, truespeech
Throw on a strength belt and an amulet of mighty fists and you can dish out some serious damage.
I'm sure other people can come up with some other fun alternatives.
Summon Monster on the magical child goes back to the "slow summons" that other casters have as opposed to the unchained summoner's standard action summons, which could be seen as a downgrade.
The thing about the magical child as it currently stands is that there's an extremely limited amount of roles it can be decent at. It's pigeonholed into a buffer that also works as a subpar archer - subpar since it doesn't get the bonus feats a fighter would get, and since you can't get vigilante specialization you're also stuck with 3/4 BAB. Also, there aren't really any archery vigilante talents, just one for throwing weapons, and you only get two during your PFS career anyway. You get a huge pile of social talents, most of which are useless in PFS unless you somehow manage to adventure only in a very specific location, but very little in terms of combat ability other than your buffs.
Or at least that's what I've ended up with in my last week of trying to make a melee vishkanya magical child. Do share if you have alternative ideas. I'm pretty much considering chucking the whole archetype and going with none. It's like trying to build a melee cleric except you don't get domains, or cures, or touch spells, or channel energy...
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Summon Monster on the magical child goes back to the "slow summons" that other casters have as opposed to the unchained summoner's standard action summons, which could be seen as a downgrade.
The thing about the magical child as it currently stands is that there's an extremely limited amount of roles it can be decent at. It's pigeonholed into a buffer that also works as a subpar archer - subpar since it doesn't get the bonus feats a fighter would get, and since you can't get vigilante specialization you're also stuck with 3/4 BAB. Also, there aren't really any archery vigilante talents, just one for throwing weapons, and you only get two during your PFS career anyway. You get a huge pile of social talents, most of which are useless in PFS unless you somehow manage to adventure only in a very specific location, but very little in terms of combat ability other than your buffs.
Or at least that's what I've ended up with in my last week of trying to make a melee vishkanya magical child. Do share if you have alternative ideas. I'm pretty much considering chucking the whole archetype and going with none.
Well, a Magical Child can grab either Lethal Grace or Shield of Blades. Both those are actually solid combat buffs in their own way. Lethal Grace likely being a better choice given the light armor restriction. So that's helpful. If going the Str route (or otheriwse using a reach weapon), Vital Punishment is also available and useful. So...melee seems like an option. Especially reach-weapon melee (with an Elven Branched Spear if going Dex...which is not a bad idea).
That build would grab Weapon Finesse at 1st, Lethal Grace (and thus a free Feat, which would be EWP) at 2nd, Combat Reflexes at 3rd, Phalanx Formation at 5th, and Vital Punishment at 6th. If Human or Elf (or Half-Elf with Ancestral Arms), you'd grab Power Attack in there as well (which you can afford stat-wise with only a little work), or grab it at 7th if not (or take it earlier and get something else at 7th). That's probably the best plan, and makes a solid melee combatant (remember, Long Arm is an Unchained Summoner spell). The Str build is similar (well, Shield of Blades rather than Lethal Grace, and no need for the Branched Spear), and can make good use of Enlarge Person, though you'll need at least decent Dex to make it work.
One of those plus Buff Spells isn't a bad build, really. Summoning isn't gonna be your strong suit...but that's by no means all the Unchained Summoner list can do.
And you're underestimating Social Talents. Even without Reputation, you can grab and make good use of Social Graces (which is amazing), Many Guises (super useful), Everyman (Great when you eventually get it), Quick Change (your 7th level Talent), Case The Joint (potentially handy) and Mockingbird (surprisingly neat). That sort of pigeonholes you as a trickster of sorts, but it's not a bad selection, and is more Talents than you can get by 12th.
And all that ignores how impressive your Familiar can get...
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I would have to see the rest of the class, but why are you saying summon monster is irrelevant? Assuming she is getting the same spell progression as summoner, she is getting summon monster 2 one level after wizards, she is getting summon monster 4 at the same level they are, and a level before sorcerers get it.
Assuming they haven't changed the base stats from the playtest, she has 6+Int skills, to the summoners 2, 2 good saves to the summoners 1, martial weapon proficiency and medium armor and shield, compared to the summoners simple and light. Her familiar gets to share her skill ranks, so at 8th level (for example) it gets 48 + 8xInt skill ranks, as opposed to 24.
Yes, it cannot fulfill the disposible combat meat puppet role that a summoner's eidolon can, but this would make a pretty solid skill monkey / buffer / archer.
...
Okay, finally found the vigilante write up on d20pfsrd.Hmm... So the magical girl gets 4+ skill, not 6, that is a disappointment.
On the other hand losing specialization does *not* cut out 2/3 or the talents, it cuts out less than half (18 out of 46)
Magical child gets to upgrade it's familiar to anything on the list at 5th, and 7th, and at 9th it gets to switch freely between all 4. So you basically have 4 different familiars to chose from.
The familiar gets stunning appearance, so since a bunch of improved familiars get invisibility at will, you can always render your foe flat footed.
Lets look at it going the other direction. What if we do give them access to archtypes.
Silvanshee with Mauler archtype
90 foot fly, pounce, 16 str (24 for 1 minute per say) 3 attacks, It looses speak with animals of it's kind and speak with master, but that doesn't matter much because it has Languages Celestial, Draconic, Infernal; speak with animals, truespeech
Throw on a strength belt and an amulet of mighty fists and you can dish out some serious damage.
I'm sure other people can come up with some other fun alternatives.
I'm going to answer both of your posts here...
1)Summon Monster - Magical child
1 at 1st - Wiz(spell)/summoner(sla) at 1st
2 at 4th - Wiz(spell)/summoner(sla) at 3rd
4 at 7th - Wiz(spell)/summoner(sla) at 7th
5 at 10th - Wiz(spell)/summoner(sla) at 9th
6 at 13th - Wiz(spell)/summoner(sla) at 11th
With slow summoning(and no way to change that), short duration with no school or SLA to increase and requiring many feats to be decent at summoning, the summons will be decent distractions. At 1-4, and 7-10 the summons, if all important feats are taken, won't be too bad. But it does suffer from not being able to get multiple summons from earlier Summon Mon levels early enough to make them a contender.
It isn't just a matter of when they get summons... it's a matter of when they can summon more than 1 from a summon mom level.
Thus, it does not really have long term viability as a main form of combat. More like flanking buddies for the rest of the party.
2)You can't really count the social talents. They are usually skill boosts, and some of them will be used to make your change faster.
You get about half as many vigilante talents and you do lose some of the best by not having a specialization. But, you do get enough that you should be able to get some combat usability there. But nothing really to help your chances to hit.
3) You will get several familiars to choose from, but that is meaningless if all they can do is look cute or wave wand. You may as well be a wizard with a poor spell list at that point.
And, remember, a mauler can not speak. At all. Even if it has languages. So your silvanshee example would not have that. It would also only have 6 int. It also only has half your HP and your base saves and BAB. Also, if it dies, that's 200gp per level.
And, for every magical item that you give it beyond an amulet or barding, costs the familiar one of its feats.
Now compare that to an eidolon. Yah, no comparison.
Basically, if any archetype/class were to get improved familiars with archetypes... it would be this one. Like mini-eidolons with... well, lots of drawbacks in comparison.
Eh, I was trying to avoid the EBS since I already have a rogue/arcanist who uses one and I was trying to find something different, but I guess there's no getting around its superiority to all other finesse weapons. Was considering spiked chain, but Cornugon Shield and Shield of Blades make each other semi-redundant, and if I don't get Shield of Blades I probably won't be able to get Power Attack, which means I have no damage output, so out goes Cornugon Shield...
It's funny how the elven branched spear single-handedly changed finesse builds. It's pretty much the only option for them other than the ECB. Damn those elves and their fancy cultural weapons that suddenly everyone uses. Similarly, Phalanx Formation made itself mandatory for reach builds the moment it came out. I don't have a single reach weapon user who doesn't have it.
I dunno. It just feels to me like the more options we get in the game, the more cookie-cutter the characters get, because there's an ever-increasing chance of a singular Best Build that obsoletes all others.
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Well, a Magical Child can grab either Lethal Grace or Shield of Blades. Both those are actually solid combat buffs in their own way. Lethal Grace likely being a better choice given the light armor restriction. So that's helpful. If going the Str route (or otheriwse using a reach weapon), Vital Punishment is also available and useful. So...melee seems like an option. Especially reach-weapon melee (with an Elven Branched Spear if going Dex...which is not a bad idea).That build would grab Weapon Finesse at 1st, Lethal Grace (and thus a free Feat, which would be EWP) at 2nd, Combat Reflexes at 3rd, Phalanx Formation at 5th, and Vital Punishment at 6th. If Human or Elf (or Half-Elf with Ancestral Arms), you'd grab Power Attack in there as well (which you can afford stat-wise with only a little work), or grab it at 7th if not (or take it earlier and get something else at 7th). That's probably the best plan, and makes a solid melee combatant (remember, Long Arm is an Unchained Summoner spell). The Str build is similar (well, Shield of Blades rather than Lethal Grace, and no need for the Branched Spear), and can make good use of Enlarge Person, though you'll need at least decent Dex to make it work.
One of those plus Buff Spells isn't a bad build, really. Summoning isn't gonna be your strong suit...but that's by no means all the Unchained Summoner list can do.
And you're underestimating Social Talents. Even without Reputation, you can grab and make good use of Social Graces (which is amazing), Many Guises (super useful), Everyman (Great when you eventually get it), Quick Change (your 7th level Talent), Case The Joint (potentially handy) and Mockingbird (surprisingly neat). That sort of pigeonholes you as a trickster of sorts, but it's not a bad selection, and is more Talents than you can get by 12th.
And all that ignores how impressive your Familiar can get...
1) The familiar doesn't get impressive without an archetype. It gets useful... with UMD, but not impressive.
2)Remember, this is a 3/4ths BAB class. And no class abilities to increase to hit without specialization. Not much in the way of extra damage either.
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I'm seeing a lot of nay-saying about the magical child here, and I'm saddened by it. I really do think it is a good archetype, and all my number crunching and play experience just confirm it. It's a broadly useful archetype/class that gives you a lot of tools, which may be why it doesn't appear as great on a first glance. I would say similar things about battle host occultist (which I have at level 7 now).
With a dex build, your AC easily hits the "20+your level" metric with buffs (shield and barkskin), basic armor and little-to-no AC wondrous items. My magical child uses a suboptimal weapon (starknife), but between lethal grace, arcane strike, and piranha strike, her static damage is and will be respectable (at least enough to hold attention as a tank), and the bonus to-hit is on-par with my battle host occultist (who does fine in combat) thanks to being able to self-buff heroism. Strength builds with a two-hander and power attack never have problems with damage, and you've even got arcane strike to toss on top. You can even get vital strike two levels before you would even HAVE an iterative.
The magical child also single-class qualifies for eldritch knight, and you don't lose much in the way of class abilities in PFS between 7(when you qualify) and 11. If you take boon companion and magical knack, your spell progression gets delayed by one level and you lose two social talents. That's it. Keeps your BAB higher, puts weapon spec on the table at 11, buffs your fort save, and throws in a bonus feat (which might free up room for boon companion).
Unless I'm missing something, improved familiars can have the sage and emissary archetypes even now, which are two of the best ones imo. The former gives you a valuable knowledge-monkey (perhaps even literally) high levels that can easily have +10 to every knowledge with just 1 point of investment, and the latter gives you a guidance-bot that can take advantage of some of the really nice domain powers without affecting your action economy (my chosen one has touch of law and it's great, bit of luck would be awesome, too).
As far as the spell list, I think it's a great self-buff list. Barkskin, heroism, stoneskin, resist and see invisibility can last whole adventures with just a lesser extend metamagic rod (which are cheap enough at high level you can have several) and you also got Shield and Blur/Displacement thrown in there for shorter length defense. Being able to self-cast fly is invaluable, as-is haste. Dimension door, glitterdust, dispel magic and vanish/invisibility/greater invisibility are great utility. Heck, you can throw Snowballs, one of the most OP spells in the game.
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I'm seeing a lot of nay-saying about the magical child here, and I'm saddened by it. I really do think it is a good archetype, and all my number crunching and play experience just confirm it. It's a broadly useful archetype/class that gives you a lot of tools, which may be why it doesn't appear as great on a first glance. I would say similar things about battle host occultist (which I have at level 7 now).
With a dex build, your AC easily hits the "20+your level" metric with buffs (shield and barkskin), basic armor and little-to-no AC wondrous items. My magical child uses a suboptimal weapon (starknife), but between lethal grace, arcane strike, and piranha strike, her static damage is and will be respectable (at least enough to hold attention as a tank), and the bonus to-hit is on-par with my battle host occultist (who does fine in combat) thanks to being able to self-buff heroism. Strength builds with a two-hander and power attack never have problems with damage, and you've even got arcane strike to toss on top. You can even get vital strike two levels before you would even HAVE an iterative.
The magical child also single-class qualifies for eldritch knight, and you don't lose much in the way of class abilities in PFS between 7(when you qualify) and 11. If you take boon companion and magical knack, your spell progression gets delayed by one level and you lose two social talents. That's it. Keeps your BAB higher, puts weapon spec on the table at 11, buffs your fort save, and throws in a bonus feat (which might free up room for boon companion).
Unless I'm missing something, improved familiars can have the sage and emissary archetypes even now, which are two of the best ones imo. The former gives you a valuable knowledge-monkey (perhaps even literally) high levels that can easily have +10 to every knowledge with just 1 point of investment, and the latter gives you a guidance-bot that can take advantage of some of the really nice domain powers without affecting your action economy (my chosen one has...
Compare it to the base bard and see who has got more going for it combat-wise.
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I have, darling. My Mummy's Mask archaeologist bard is built very similarly to my magical child. I have an arcane duelist, too. Heck, my occultist plays a lot like a melee bard. They each have their strengths and weaknesses.
For my magical child vigilante concept, I built her out a number of ways, and it was the best package to accomplish all the things I wanted in the way I wanted. She plays well in-practice and accomplishes what she is supposed-to, which is all that matters to me.
I just want some varied blasting spells added to their list, or something similar. You know, so the magical child can properly emulate what it should be able to emulate.
Really, the Occultist spell list would make a better fit, and in a home game, I'd just run with that.
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I have, darling. My Mummy's Mask archaeologist bard is built very similarly to my magical child. I have an arcane duelist, too. Heck, my occultist plays a lot like a melee bard. They each have their strengths and weaknesses.
For my magical child vigilante concept, I built her out a number of ways, and it was the best package to accomplish all the things I wanted in the way I wanted. She plays well in-practice and accomplishes what she is supposed-to, which is all that matters to me.
Similar build? Does your Magical Child have uncanny dodge, evasion, a swift action general +1 that increases with level, access to healing spells, an extra +2 skills...
That's ignoring the trap stuff(nothing similar for MC.) and rogue talents(maybe slightly better than the vigilante talents for combat).
Or did you just mean, "has the same feats but is definitely not equal in combat ability"?
The bard will hit more often, harder, has more utility(spells and skills) and can have at least one more combat feat(rogue talent). This while also having more skills, harder to kill and having the same BAB and base saves.
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1) The familiar doesn't get impressive without an archetype. It gets useful... with UMD, but not impressive.
That was sort of a side note in any case, so I won't argue.
2)Remember, this is a 3/4ths BAB class. And no class abilities to increase to hit without specialization. Not much in the way of extra damage either.
Uh...buff spells are a way to increase to-hit. And do so by quite a bit in many cases.
And Lethal Grace adds half your level to damage. Which is why I recommended it. By, oh, 8th level, assuming my above build, Dex 20, Str 14, Power Attack, and a +1 weapon, we're talking 1d8+14 damage per hit, 2d8+14 via Vital Punishment on an AoO (which you get plenty of due to Long Arm + Elven Branched Spear + Combat Reflexes). Your attack is +12/+7, too (with Heroism).
A Fighter of the same level, with Str 20 and a +1 Greatsword (plus Weapon Focus, Weapon specialization, and Power Attack) is doing +13/+8 for 2d6+20. That's definitely more if you don't get those AoO...but it's less (in terms of DPR) than if the Magical Child gets even one AoO like they're very likely to given 15-foot reach and Combat Reflexes (37 DPR vs. 31.19), if Haste is going on both, they even out again, but the Magical Child is the one providing Haste, and gets even more DPR if they get more than one AoO (admittedly, not the most common occurrence).
And then there's all their utility spell and skill options. And the fact that, with Barkskin, Heroism, and Shield, your AC and Saves are actually really good.
Are they as good as a Bard? Interesting question. It sorta depends on what you're aiming for (their AC is loads better, they have a familiar, and they can get a bigger damage bonus on a finesse weapon, and they can pull Disguise-related shenanigans Bards can only dream of), but probably not (they're legitimately worse party-buffers, and only on-par as social characters). That's not exactly a horrible condemnation, though, given that Bards are amazing. They're certainly a viable character who can manage some interesting tricks.
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1) The familiar doesn't get impressive without an archetype. It gets useful... with UMD, but not impressive.That was sort of a side note in any case, so I won't argue.
2)Remember, this is a 3/4ths BAB class. And no class abilities to increase to hit without specialization. Not much in the way of extra damage either.Uh...buff spells are a way to increase to-hit. And do so by quite a bit in many cases.
And Lethal Grace adds half your level to damage. Which is why I recommended it. By, oh, 8th level, assuming my above build, Dex 20, Str 14, Power Attack, and a +1 weapon, we're talking 1d8+14 damage per hit, 2d8+14 via Vital Punishment on an AoO (which you get plenty of due to Long Arm + Elven Branched Spear + Combat Reflexes). Your attack is +12/+7, too (with Heroism).
A Fighter of the same level, with Str 20 and a +1 Greatsword (plus Weapon Focus, Weapon specialization, and Power Attack) is doing +13/+8 for 2d6+20. That's definitely more if you don't get those AoO...but it's less (in terms of DPR) than if the Magical Child gets even one AoO like they're very likely to given 15-foot reach and Combat Reflexes (37 DPR vs. 31.19), if Haste is going on both, they even out again, but the Magical Child is the one providing Haste, and gets even more DPR if they get more than one AoO (admittedly, not the most common occurrence).
And then there's all their utility spell and skill options. And the fact that, with Barkskin, Heroism, and Shield, your AC and Saves are actually really good.
Are they as good as a Bard? Interesting question. It sorta depends on what you're aiming for (their AC is loads better, they have a familiar, and they can get a bigger damage bonus on a finesse weapon, and they can pull Disguise-related shenanigans Bards can only dream of), but probably not (they're legitimately worse party-buffers, and only on-par as social characters). That's not exactly a horrible condemnation, though, given that Bards are...
As I read over your post here, my best reaction is.. Och, look at that sad action economy.
Your example would have the MC actually able to attack by the third round in combat. Given heroism already being up.
Where the fighter has been swinging the whole time. Combats lasting 1-4 rounds typically makes this a very unhappy class.
Remember, a buff is only as good as the action it takes to get it in combat.
So, two standard actions for combat(attack) and at least 1 for combat(defense). And from spell slots. You're better of just buffing the party and staying away from combat entirely at that point. And you won't do that as well as most classes that can buff.
Also, you're going to be 7th level before you can even do that. And heroism and haste share the same slots.
Yes, you can hit something. But you're not coming close to the fighter like in your example.
You use your actions to buff. The fighter just strikes. So he's got a 1 - 3 round lead.
Then, let's assume 7th level...
he's got 7 feats without racials, so he's got your feats and more. He can be buffed by barkskin too. He's got weapon training(+1 attack/dam). He gets hasted the same time you do. So another +1. The heroism works as well on him, so another +2.
So, same weapon and feats(not even including the other feats he gets). Same stats.
So, BAB 7 + 5 + heroism + haste + weapon + weapon training + weapon focus
7+5+2+1+1+1+1
That's 19/19/14 (due to haste)(+2 vs AOOs)
With power attack - 18/18/13 and next level will double the bonus.
At 7, the MC would get BAB 5 + 5 + heroism + haste + weapon + weapon focus
5+5+2+1+1+1
That's 15/15 (due to haste)(+2 vs AOOS)
With Power attack - 14/14 and gets the same bonus as the fighter
Without lethal grace the fighter gets +1 damage over the MC, probably used one of his extra feats for specialization, that's another +2 damage.(+3 equals lethal grace at this level) At 8, power attack bonues double, and probably will get furious focus. Lethal grace is nice, but it doesn't overcome the damage bonuses the fighter gets. Though, sometimes it does equal. So, at 8 it is the MC gains +1 damage, but the fighter gains +3.
Yes, it won't be able to vital strike once per round on an AOO. But it won't miss it.
Face them both off against Mohrg, with AC23, and the fighter only has to roll a 4, where the MC needs a 8.
Let's make it unfair and say the fighter has no buffs. He's still
16/11. With more feats to help that, and can attack at least 1 turn sooner.
For understandings sake, this is a 7th level pure fighter. No archetypes, no multi-classing.
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All that assumes you can't pre-buff. When you're a class with Invisibility, Stealth as a Class Skill and Dex 20. Scouting and pre-buffing are very much within your wheelhouse.
It also assumes you buff rather than attacking, which you don't need to. Long Arm is great, but it isn't necessary to make the build work. Ditto Haste.
You might spend the first round doing Haste if nobody else is, but that's because doing Haste is better than an attack, not because you need it to function. You'd never bother with Long Arm unless you know a fight is imminent, it's just not a good enough buff. You'll still get an AoO pretty regularly, though, since you have Reach even sans Long Arm.
And you're absolutely right, you can probably build a Fighter that does AoO fishing better (though, for the record, tossing Heroism and Haste on a Fighter with no explanation of where they're coming from is a bit disingenuous, IMO).
But so what? They won't have all the social, magical, and familiar advantages and they won't be a party-buffer. They're a different character who does different things.
I'm not arguing Magical Child is The Most Optimal Character (tm). I'm arguing it's very possible to make one who's viable and effective. My above build does enough DPR vs. level equivalent foes to be rated Green by this guide most turns (and occasionally spikes Blue). And that guide is a pretty good metric for whether a character is viable. Add in the non-combat and party-buffing elements, and it's very solid.
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All that assumes you can't pre-buff. When you're a class with Invisibility, Stealth as a Class Skill and Dex 20. Scouting and pre-buffing are very much within your wheelhouse.
It also assumes you buff rather than attacking, which you don't need to. Long Arm is great, but it isn't necessary to make the build work. Ditto Haste.
You might spend the first round doing Haste if nobody else is, but that's because doing Haste is better than an attack, not because you need it to function. You'd never bother with Long Arm unless you know a fight is imminent, it's just not a good enough buff. You'll still get an AoO pretty regularly, though, since you have Reach even sans Long Arm.
And you're absolutely right, you can probably build a Fighter that does AoO fishing better (though, for the record, tossing Heroism and Haste on a Fighter with no explanation of where they're coming from is a bit disingenuous, IMO).
But so what? They won't have all the social, magical, and familiar advantages and they won't be a party-buffer. They're a different character who does different things.
I'm not arguing Magical Child is The Most Optimal Character (tm). I'm arguing it's very possible to make one who's viable and effective. My above build does enough DPR vs. level equivalent foes to be rated Green by this guide most turns (and occasionally spikes Blue). And that guide is a pretty good metric for whether a character is viable. Add in the non-combat and party-buffing elements, and it's very solid.
I don't disagree that the archetype can function. It isn't so broken as to be unusable.
My argument is that for anything you want it to do something else does much better and will still do some of the other stuff you do.
I mean, for two bonus feats I could have a familiar on the fighter(eldritch guardian) and it would get all my combat feats as well. If you are hung up on the familiar. That build would even have UMD as a class skill for self buffing.
Or, you could play a bard and be a much better buffer and maybe a bit better fighter and not much better social character.
My argument only asks for a mini-eidolon(familiar with archetype) to go along with it to make up the bit that is lost compared to other classes that have similar potentials. It would be a unique buff to a unique archetype.
Remember, wand usage is curbed on a mauler, as they can not speak and thus can not activate it. For those worried about getting the best of both worlds.
Also, it is not disingenuous to assume there will be someone in the party who can buff. Or for the fighter to have potions or UMD available. There are so many ways it can happen that it isn't worth the discussion, I thought.
But, for the record, I should have said I was making the assumption the two characters were in the same party and thus were being buffed the same.
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Oh, I don't disagree that the Familiar being able to grab Archetypes would be nice, and make the Archetype better (and a more unique option). I'm just noting that it's perfectly viable even without that.
Viable and worth taking over any other class is two things I consider different.
You COULD play a magical child and not be hated by the party.
But why would you except for flavor reasons?
Now, that's not a bad reason!
But, I prefer when there is a mechanical advantage to go with my class on top of fun flavor.
My biggest argument is that the magical child is under powered compared to other classes and could use the buff(that seemingly it was meant to have). It wouldn't make the class over-powered by any means and give a good reason to play the archetype.
That is the whole of the argument. Which has nothing to do with whether or not the class could be usable at a table without the buff. I mean, you could play a fighter to 20. Most people wouldn't. But you could.
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Honestly, as I said before, two of the best familiar archetypes don't trade out speak with animals of its kind (sage and emissary) and should thus be available, and both even fit the "guide" flavor of the archetype well.
I wouldn't say they were the best either mechanically or flavor-wise. But they do have their niche uses. Neither of which I would use on an improved familiar, though. Loss of shared skills or shared spells is very harsh.
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Honestly, as I said before, two of the best familiar archetypes don't trade out speak with animals of its kind (sage and emissary) and should thus be available, and both even fit the "guide" flavor of the archetype well.I wouldn't say they were the best either mechanically or flavor-wise. But they do have their niche uses. Neither of which I would use on an improved familiar, though. Loss of shared skills or shared spells is very harsh.
I'm just curious; which archetypes do you think are the best?
Shared skills is not as nice as it sounds actually in-practice from what I've seen. Yes, your familiar may technically get more skill points, but a lot of those skill points end up going into things it can't use effectively or that naturally pointlessly overlap with your character's skills. Being able to distribute them as you will is much nicer as you can give them their own skill niche to cover, which sage familiars can do quite well. The increased int and flat bonus to knowledges gives them quite respectable bonuses as they level up. Focusing them on knowledges frees up all your character skill points for social skills and such while still giving you access to all knowledges.
For emissaries, as anyone with Gamin can tell you, having a personal guidance bot is kinda nice. My paladin has definitely gotten use out of touch of law, which is great for situations in which you REALLY just need to not fail. I am curious as to why you think losing share spells is "harsh." It seems incredibly niche to me.
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Honestly, as I said before, two of the best familiar archetypes don't trade out speak with animals of its kind (sage and emissary) and should thus be available, and both even fit the "guide" flavor of the archetype well.I wouldn't say they were the best either mechanically or flavor-wise. But they do have their niche uses. Neither of which I would use on an improved familiar, though. Loss of shared skills or shared spells is very harsh.I'm just curious; which archetypes do you think are the best?
Loss of shared spells can be harsh, but it can also be negligible. It is niche. I mean, if you class doesn't have spells it doesn't matter. But if you are a wizard, you can Alter Self your familiar and do some really interesting things. It also lets your Shield... or really, do any of the personal only buff spells, which are usually the best kind.
Shared skills is not as nice as it sounds actually in-practice from what I've seen. Yes, your familiar may technically get more skill points, but a lot of those skill points end up going into things it can't use effectively or that naturally pointlessly overlap with your character's skills. Being able to distribute them as you will is much nicer as you can give them their own skill niche to cover, which sage familiars can do quite well. The increased int and flat bonus to knowledges gives them quite respectable bonuses as they level up. Focusing them on knowledges frees up all your character skill points for social skills and such while still giving you access to all knowledges.
For emissaries, as anyone with Gamin can tell you, having a personal guidance bot is kinda nice. My paladin has definitely gotten use out of touch of law, which is great for situations in which you REALLY just need to not fail. I am curious as to why you think losing share spells is "harsh." It seems incredibly niche to me.
You haven't seen skill share shine at all, then. You should see the things my wizard can do with his familiar. With an azata lyrakien at level 10 with a circlet of persuasion and only listing skills with points in it...
Bluff - 21Diplomacy - 21
Disable Device(without the ring of mechanical devices I own) - 16
Fly - 29
Intimidate - 18
Knowledges
Arcana - 12
Dung, engi, geo, hist, local, nature, nobility - 3
planes - 8
relig - 5
Perception - 16
Perform(sing) - 14
Sense Motive - 16
Spellcraft - 12
Stealth - 25
UMD - 18
(Wizard with 27 INT, so not usual, but an example of possibilities.)
Each archetype actually has its place. The two you listed as the best are very niche, but not worthless or even really bad.
But you will lose INT on many improved familiars with Sage as it lowers their INT to match the numbers given if the familiar's would be higher.
Reasons to use by archetype:
Mauler(for builds that can buff it some how, like Eldritch Guardian which gives it combat feats. Or for classes without ACs but would like a flanking buddy)
Downsides for an Improved Familiar : Can't use wands, as they can not speak.
Figment(For when you want your familiar to be really good at a few skills and don't want to pay if it dies)
Downsides for an Improved Familiar : Loses improved evasion, which is the only thing that keeps them alive in AOE attacks.
Infiltrator(If you really want a good scout. Especially good for someone using teleport spells)
Downsides for an Improved Familiar : Loses improved evasion, which is the only thing that keeps them alive in AOE attacks.
Mascot(For the +1 luck bonus, especially for parties that use the luck bonus increasing trait. The ability to speak to the familiar even if you aren't its master is nice, but it is slow.)
Downsides for an Improved Familiar : Loses improved evasion, which is the only thing that keeps them alive in AOE attacks.
School Familiar(A grab bag of fun. The loss of share spells of all spells but the specialized school is harsh. But for some schools and builds it doesn't matter.)
Downsides for an Improved Familiar : Loses shared spells, which can be harsh. But negligible depending on familiar usage.
Valet(For a class with teamwork feats that needs a flanker. Will want a small familiar, though)
Downsides for an Improved Familiar : No major losses here. But most improved familiars are tiny and will not be very useful.
I cut out some of the more niche archetypes, even more niche than the ones listed.
In the end, they are all niche up to a point. 'Best' depends on what you want it for.
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I will say again, Sage and Emissary are not bad archetypes. They are good at what they do and either could be useful on an Improved Familiar depending on the circumstances.
It is just that anyone with arcane spellcaster levels will probably at some point want to cast a personal spell on his familiar.
And many classes with arcane spellcaster levels already either get knowledge skills, use INT or would prefer the Mauler or Protector archetypes. But there are cases when none of that is true, and you would want either emissary or sage.
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Want to make it really flexible?
The way I read the 'Animal Guide' ability, each of the different forms has its own unique stats. So, a 20th level cat familiar form would have a 15 intelligence and the ability to speak with other cats, but the 7th level Cassian Angel improved familiar form of the same animal guide would only have a 6 intelligence and no 'speak with animals' ability.
Basically, each form separately follows the standard rules for a familiar/improved familiar of its type. Effectively giving the Magical Child four different familiars... only one of which is 'active' at any given time.
Which would potentially mean that each form could have a DIFFERENT familiar archetype. The cat familiar form could have a mauler archetype (or any other). The Cassian Angel form could have a Sage archetype. The 3rd level Celestial Monkey improved familiar form could have no archetype. Et cetera.
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I will say again, Sage and Emissary are not bad archetypes. They are good at what they do and either could be useful on an Improved Familiar depending on the circumstances.
It is just that anyone with arcane spellcaster levels will probably at some point want to cast a personal spell on his familiar.And many classes with arcane spellcaster levels already either get knowledge skills, use INT or would prefer the Mauler or Protector archetypes. But there are cases when none of that is true, and you would want either emissary or sage.
I suppose I should amend my statement to say I think they are the best for the magical child. They fulfill most of hte criteria you mention there.
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Want to make it really flexible?
The way I read the 'Animal Guide' ability, each of the different forms has its own unique stats. So, a 20th level cat familiar form would have a 15 intelligence and the ability to speak with other cats, but the 7th level Cassian Angel improved familiar form of the same animal guide would only have a 6 intelligence and no 'speak with animals' ability.
Basically, each form separately follows the standard rules for a familiar/improved familiar of its type. Effectively giving the Magical Child four different familiars... only one of which is 'active' at any given time.
Which would potentially mean that each form could have a DIFFERENT familiar archetype. The cat familiar form could have a mauler archetype (or any other). The Cassian Angel form could have a Sage archetype. The 3rd level Celestial Monkey improved familiar form could have no archetype. Et cetera.
A PC who has classes and changes forms would not change form into another class. The same principle applies here.
The familiar doesn't become a new familiar. It is the same original familiar, it just has a new shape.In fact it doesn't become a new familiar when you replace it. The same consciousness exists in a new body during the revival ritual.
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I suppose I should amend my statement to say I think they are the best for the magical child. They fulfill most of hte criteria you mention there.I will say again, Sage and Emissary are not bad archetypes. They are good at what they do and either could be useful on an Improved Familiar depending on the circumstances.
It is just that anyone with arcane spellcaster levels will probably at some point want to cast a personal spell on his familiar.And many classes with arcane spellcaster levels already either get knowledge skills, use INT or would prefer the Mauler or Protector archetypes. But there are cases when none of that is true, and you would want either emissary or sage.
And still, mauler would be better mechanically for combat. Especially with 2 levels of eldritch guardian on top.
Protector could be good too if you are willing to leave all of your to-hit and damage to your base abilities.But that is only if you are seeking to increase combat.
Otherwise:
If you want to limit your familiar to a single role and want to ignore knowledges on your MC, then sage is the choice for you.
Guidance-bots are nice, and it wouldn't lose skills. So emissary is a good choice again, if you want a minor combat/skill check increase.
If I can only choose emissary or sage.... I might be tempted to go with emissary. Though, I probably would go with none. Due to being able to cast alter self on the familiar without the archetype. There are too many situations that can come in handy.
The paladin archetype, Chosen One, uses Emissary and it fits pretty well, I think. Though that familiar gets extra skill ranks for Know(religion). Flavorful, and mechanically sound.
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Want to make it really flexible?
The way I read the 'Animal Guide' ability, each of the different forms has its own unique stats. So, a 20th level cat familiar form would have a 15 intelligence and the ability to speak with other cats, but the 7th level Cassian Angel improved familiar form of the same animal guide would only have a 6 intelligence and no 'speak with animals' ability.
Basically, each form separately follows the standard rules for a familiar/improved familiar of its type. Effectively giving the Magical Child four different familiars... only one of which is 'active' at any given time.
Which would potentially mean that each form could have a DIFFERENT familiar archetype. The cat familiar form could have a mauler archetype (or any other). The Cassian Angel form could have a Sage archetype. The 3rd level Celestial Monkey improved familiar form could have no archetype. Et cetera.
A PC who has classes and changes forms would not change form into another class. The same principle applies here.
The familiar doesn't become a new familiar. It is the same original familiar, it just has a new shape.
That's fine.
The rule says that when it reaches 3rd level it reveals it's form.
That means it has been an improved familiar all along. In which case it can never have an archtype, it never gets speak with animals of it's own kind, and it never grants the normal familiar quasi bonus feat and there is no problem.
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Want to make it really flexible?
The way I read the 'Animal Guide' ability, each of the different forms has its own unique stats. So, a 20th level cat familiar form would have a 15 intelligence and the ability to speak with other cats, but the 7th level Cassian Angel improved familiar form of the same animal guide would only have a 6 intelligence and no 'speak with animals' ability.
Basically, each form separately follows the standard rules for a familiar/improved familiar of its type. Effectively giving the Magical Child four different familiars... only one of which is 'active' at any given time.
Which would potentially mean that each form could have a DIFFERENT familiar archetype. The cat familiar form could have a mauler archetype (or any other). The Cassian Angel form could have a Sage archetype. The 3rd level Celestial Monkey improved familiar form could have no archetype. Et cetera.
A PC who has classes and changes forms would not change form into another class. The same principle applies here.
The familiar doesn't become a new familiar. It is the same original familiar, it just has a new shape.That's fine.
The rule says that when it reaches 3rd level it reveals it's form.
That means it has been an improved familiar all along. In which case it can never have an archtype, it never gets speak with animals of it's own kind, and it never grants the normal familiar quasi bonus feat and there is no problem.
Them being an improved familiar at first level is blatantly not true. And if you want to quibble over fluff, there is plenty more to play with. Do you want to play this game?
We can start with your misrepresentation of the sentence about their form.It is better to argue from solid ground than to play games.
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The rule says that when it reaches 3rd level it reveals it's form.
Actually, what it says is that it, "reveals another aspect of its form".
That means it has been an improved familiar all along.
Actually, the word "another" means that it is BOTH.
In which case it can never have an archtype, it never gets speak with animals of it's own kind, and it never grants the normal familiar quasi bonus feat and there is no problem.
The cat familiar doesn't grant +3 to stealth? I don't see anything supporting that reading.
"The familiar can change its vigilante identity again when the magical child reaches 5th and 7th levels, each time to familiars available at those levels."
These are different familiars... with different stats... different creature types... different alignments.
Yes, they are all the same creature with one set of memories, but it has five different 'identities' (one social & 4 vigilante)... each with their own stats. A single animal guide could be a seemingly normal house cat, a cat familiar, a fiendish cat, a celestial cat, AND a silvanshee... or an animal, a magical beast, an undead, an elemental, AND a fey.
The effort to treat these all as ONE identity is inherently self-defeating. For example, why wouldn't it make just as much 'sense' to have the regular familiar bonus (e.g. +3 stealth for a cat) apply for all its forms as to deny it to all forms? You are saying that there is only one creature... but how do you then determine that this single creature/identity LOSES abilities across forms rather than gaining them? Would a silvanshee (the 'highest' form) in cat familiar form still be able to use its 'heroic strength' ability? Or does it lose that ability even in silvanshee form because it is 'really' a cat? Do only the abilities of the 'last' form count? If so... how does that work when you don't know what that form is going to be until 7th level?
Et cetera. It just doesn't work. Rather, there are four different vigilante identities/forms/familiars. Each has its own alignment and powers.
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The rule says that when it reaches 3rd level it reveals it's form.Actually, what it says is that it, "reveals another aspect of its form".
That means it has been an improved familiar all along.Actually, the word "another" means that it is BOTH.
In which case it can never have an archtype, it never gets speak with animals of it's own kind, and it never grants the normal familiar quasi bonus feat and there is no problem.The cat familiar doesn't grant +3 to stealth? I don't see anything supporting that reading.
"The familiar can change its vigilante identity again when the magical child reaches 5th and 7th levels, each time to familiars available at those levels."
These are different familiars... with different stats... different creature types... different alignments.
Yes, they are all the same creature with one set of memories, but it has five different 'identities' (one social & 4 vigilante)... each with their own stats. A single animal guide could be a seemingly normal house cat, a cat familiar, a fiendish cat, a celestial cat, AND a silvanshee... or an animal, a magical beast, an undead, an elemental, AND a fey.
The effort to treat these all as ONE identity is inherently self-defeating. For example, why wouldn't it make just as much 'sense' to have the regular familiar bonus (e.g. +3 stealth for a cat) apply for all its forms as to deny it to all forms? You are saying that there is only one creature... but how do you then determine that this single creature/identity LOSES abilities across forms rather than gaining them? Would a silvanshee (the 'highest' form) in cat familiar form still be able to use its 'heroic strength' ability? Or does it lose that ability even in silvanshee form because it is 'really' a cat? Do only the abilities of the 'last' form count? If so... how does that work when you don't know what that form is going to be until 7th level?
Et cetera. It just doesn't work. Rather, there are four different...
Do you propose, then, that the Vigilante class is actually two different people? It has different alignment too.
No, the whole point to this thing is it has multiple forms just as the vigilante has multiple identities. If it becomes an elemental... it's not really an elemental. It's something that looks like an elemental and has its abilities. If it becomes a lyrakien... it is not a lyrakien. It just looks like one and shares its abilities.
Each form is a different aspect of the whole being. There is the old story of the blind men and the elephant that kind of informs on this situation. The trunk is long and flexible... but that doesn't mean the legs are long and flexible. Different parts of the thing have different attributes and abilities. And, for this spirit guide, when a part is manifest the other parts are not. Thus when a Donkey Rat, Master gains a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves. But when in another form, it does not grant that. Each form only provides what that form provides and not what any other form provides.
It is a spirit guide that takes the form of a familiar, not a pack of familiars.
Could the devs say that it can have different archetypes per form and it make some sense thematically? Yes.
But that isn't really how the current rules of the game lead. Different forms do not change classes. Archetypes are sort of like classes for familiars. Thus, it would have one archetype.
This is a fairly unique ability. So you will have to excuse their lack of context to better explain how it functions.
The Chosen One paladin archetype does something similar, but in that case they really were an improved familiar all along as that is its true form. And they handle the situation gracefully by giving it an archetype already. Which goes on both forms, improved familiar and base familiar form.
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If the different Familairs are just aspects, then they can be different easily. Like split-personality, except split body/mind/personality.
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If the different Familairs are just aspects, then they can be different easily. Like split-personality, except split body/mind/personality.
That could definitely be a way to play it. But, remember to consider how the Vigilate works in regards to switching personalities. That will inform on how this was designed, as it is supposed to be thematically similar.
Just, you get different bodies to go along with the change. Which is pretty cool.
Different bodies, different ability scores, different types and subtypes, different feats, different skill bonuses...
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I am strongly considering making He-Man after reading this thread.
-j
I think a lot of this arguing is missing the forest for the trees. Whether or not it CAN be tweaked to be semi-viable as a fighter isn't super relevant.
What is is whether it can be done so with A.) Any viable variation in build and fighting style (which seems to be a flat no from the people saying they like theirs) and B.) Whether it makes a good MAGICAL CHILD flavor-wise when you do build it to be effective (which from what I'm hearing is also a no).
"Yes it can be passably decent if you use this specific tiny subset of options" does not a good archetype or class make.
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Do you propose, then, that the Vigilante class is actually two different people? It has different alignment too.
Two alignments, two personalities, two different sets of abilities. So yes, in a sense the vigilante is two people... which is indeed a classic trope of the genre.
If it becomes an elemental... it's not really an elemental. It's something that looks like an elemental and has its abilities. If it becomes a lyrakien... it is not a lyrakien. It just looks like one and shares its abilities.
Semantics. If it quacks like a duck...
And, for this spirit guide, when a part is manifest the other parts are not. Thus when a Donkey Rat, Master gains a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves. But when in another form, it does not grant that. Each form only provides what that form provides and not what any other form provides.
This actually agrees with my position... and contradicts the idea that the lack of 'speak with animals' on the improved familiar forms indicates a lack of this ability on the animal familiar form. If the animal familiar form then HAS that ability why can it not swap it out for an archetype which replaces 'speak with animals'? If it is because the improved familiar forms don't have 'speak with animals'... well then we are back to applying things across forms.
Could the devs say that it can have different archetypes per form and it make some sense thematically? Yes.
The most logical alternative might be to say that any familiar archetype(s) applied must be viable across all forms. However, that could be difficult to do when three of the forms haven't been chosen yet.