crashcanuck |
I'm trying to think of a good build for an Avenger Vigilante for PFS and can't seem to settle on what kind of combat style to use. I'm torn between a throwing weapon or TWF Sword and Board build. Do any of you know a better way to build this kind of Vigilante for combat or even just have tips for how to do one of those styles?
Claxon |
Throwing it out there but throwing weapons are pretty terrible if you care about stats enough to ask
Not so true. They get access to a talent that makes it viable.
Returning Weapon (Ex): The vigilante has a signature
type of thrown weapon that returns to him. Choose a
type of thrown weapon, such as throwing axes. Whenever
the vigilante uses that type of weapon, it automatically
returns as if it had the returning property. At 14th level,
if the vigilante chose a type of thrown weapon that is
treated as ammunition, such as shuriken, and buys a set
of 50 magic ammunition of that type, he automatically
replenishes them at no cost and never runs out. If he chose
a non-ammunition thrown weapon instead, he can apply
the magical properties of the first weapon he throws in a
round to any nonmagical thrown weapons of that type he
throws that round. This allows him to make a full attack
with the benefits of his magical thrown weapon, even
though it only returns next round.
That ability basically makes it viable. They just need to buy a few backup weapons and have quick draw.
Oh wait, for PFS you say...never mind you'll never reach high enough level.
Claxon |
For a throwing build I would go with Startoss Style so between that and the Returning talent I would only need one good weapon
Yeah, unfortunately that doesn't really work as well as you want it to.
Startoss style can only hit each individual target once, which means while you might get a full attack worth of attacks, you only deal a little damage to each available target. What's worse, is that if you don't have enough targets near your initial target you just lose the extra attacks.
People like Startoss Style because it's a free extra 2 points of damage per feat.
But you need Ricochet Toss, which has multiple feat taxes for a vigilante. Quick draw, and the feat tax for not having Weapon Training, Martial Focus. Still, it is possible by taking all 3 feats. It just makes the build a late bloomer.
It's also worth noting that you can pick up Weapon Finesse and Starry Grace which will allow you to wield starknives and get dex to damage with them.
You also need to worry about getting Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Point Blank Master at some point.
The Vigilante talent that give you Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization are absolutely required here.
Claxon |
Why is ricochet toss required over the Returning talent?
Returning doesn't return your weapon after each attack, only at the beginning of your next turn.
Imagine you throw your +3 starknife. It's now on the ground, over there, by the enemy. Sure, you could draw your backup weapon. But it wont be magical. And you still need quick draw to do it.
So, your options are startoss style and can't attack the same target more than once and possibly can't get multiple attacks depending on number of enemies present OR....
You pick up ricochet toss (or blinkback belt works basically the same) so you can make full attacks against a single target.
At level 14 the Returning Talents works well, as you can just throw an absurd number of shurikens or a type of thrown weapon that will all get the benefits of being magically enchanted, but until that point....eh it just doesn't work well.
Claxon |
It's also worth noting, that Startoss Style and Starry Grace both turn off if you have more than 1 weapon in hand.
So trying to use Startoss style as just a damage booster (while attacking a single target with multiple thrown weapons) doesn't work because it will turn off.
However, you can do a dex based single weapon melee build with starry grace and work your way up to a thrown weapon build once the important feats all become available (and using some retraining).
But it's not easy going.
Imbicatus |
Woodoodoo wrote:3/4ths of your level - Fist of the Avenger caps out at +5 damage.I think you could make a pretty sick unarmed TWF build using Dex to hit and Str for damage.
with fist of the avenger and and lethal grace you get a bonus equal to your level on damage rolls
Although you can easily increase the damage further with the Shield Gauntlet style from the Armor Master's Handbook by increasing the gauntlet weapon die, and give yourself a solid AC bonus too.
Protoman |
minoritarian wrote:Although you can easily increase the damage further with the Shield Gauntlet style from the Armor Master's Handbook by increasing the gauntlet weapon die, and give yourself a solid AC bonus too.Woodoodoo wrote:3/4ths of your level - Fist of the Avenger caps out at +5 damage.I think you could make a pretty sick unarmed TWF build using Dex to hit and Str for damage.
with fist of the avenger and and lethal grace you get a bonus equal to your level on damage rolls
What are the prereqs for the Shield Gauntlet Style feats? I can start building a new vigilante towards it ahead of time til book comes out.
Imbicatus |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Imbicatus wrote:What are the prereqs for the Shield Gauntlet Style feats? I can start building a new vigilante towards it ahead of time til book comes out.minoritarian wrote:Although you can easily increase the damage further with the Shield Gauntlet style from the Armor Master's Handbook by increasing the gauntlet weapon die, and give yourself a solid AC bonus too.Woodoodoo wrote:3/4ths of your level - Fist of the Avenger caps out at +5 damage.I think you could make a pretty sick unarmed TWF build using Dex to hit and Str for damage.
with fist of the avenger and and lethal grace you get a bonus equal to your level on damage rolls
Shield Gauntlet Style: Weapon Focus (gauntlet or spiked gauntlet), proficiency with bucklers and light shields.
Shielded Gauntlet Attack: Shield Gauntlet Style, Weapon Focus (gauntlet or spiked gauntlet), proficiency with bucklers and light shields.
Shielded Gauntlet Master: Shielded Gauntlet Attack, Shield Gauntlet Style, Weapon Focus (gauntlet or spiked gauntlet), proficiency with bucklers and light shields.
Imbicatus |
Hmm what do they actually do besides increase the damage die? Gives an AC bonus as well?
First Feat lets you treat your gauntlet as a buckler, but you lose the AC bonus if you attack with it.
Second increases the damage die to Warpriest sacred weapon as your level -4. Edit: and allows you to take an extra AoO per round.Third allows you to keep the AC bonus if you attack, and allows the gauntlet's enhancement bonus to also function as a shield enhancement bonus.
Imbicatus |
If you only got the first Shield Gauntlet Style feat and wielding two gauntlets but only attack with one in a round, do you keep the shield bonus from the other gauntlet or do you lose both?
You keep the shield bonus from the non-attacking gauntlet.
wearing a gauntlet or spiked gauntlet on your off hand,
and you are not using that hand to hold or make attacks
with any other weapons or shield, you gain a +1 shield
bonus to AC. You lose this shield bonus whenever you
attack with your gauntlet or hold a weapon or shield in
that hand. While receiving this shield bonus to AC, your
gauntlet or spiked gauntlet is treated as a buckler for the
purpose of using other feats and abilities (though you
are also considered to have a free hand). This feat acts
as the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purpose of
satisfying the prerequisites of the Deflect Arrows and
Snatch Arrows feats.
Protoman |
Has the whole gauntlets counting as unarmed strikes for weapon focus and effects been resolved yet? Or still undetermined. Somehow Hero Lab got convinced it did (probably from one of the older threads on it) and I don't know if I missed a ruling on it now that someone's mentioning unarmed + brawling armor right after talk of shield gauntlet style.
Protoman |
Imbicatus |
Well, since the build I suggested was a dex bases build I don't see anything wrong with light armor
The point I was making is that the heaviest armor you can use is a chain shirt. You can't make a Brawling Mithral Breastplate because while mithral allows you to wear medium armor as if it were one category lighter, it is still actually medium armor for the purposes of what you can enchant it with.
Woodoodoo |
Woodoodoo wrote:Well, since the build I suggested was a dex bases build I don't see anything wrong with light armorThe point I was making is that the heaviest armor you can use is a chain shirt. You can't make a Brawling Mithral Breastplate because while mithral allows you to wear medium armor as if it were one category lighter, it is still actually medium armor for the purposes of what you can enchant it with.
Yes and you will still have a very respectable AC with a mithral chain shirt.
Protoman |
Actually heaviest armor would be elven chain as that's still specifically light armor. Less useful for dexterity based character though. I'm not a fan of the price (5,150 gp) but for a strength based brawling vigilante, I was sort of boned AC-wise for several levels of only having an AC of 17 with only +1 brawling mithral chain. Needless to say, my vigilante got smacked around a lot.
Celestial armor is technically better with higher dexterity modifier and higher price, but I doubt I'd ever use it.
Imbicatus |
Imbicatus wrote:Yes and you will still have a very respectable AC with a mithral chain shirt.Woodoodoo wrote:Well, since the build I suggested was a dex bases build I don't see anything wrong with light armorThe point I was making is that the heaviest armor you can use is a chain shirt. You can't make a Brawling Mithral Breastplate because while mithral allows you to wear medium armor as if it were one category lighter, it is still actually medium armor for the purposes of what you can enchant it with.
Yes, but it won't be as good as if it were a mithral breastplate, or celestial armor unless your Dex is so insanely high that you will hit the max dex bonus, and then you will have a higher AC with a Haramaki.
But most character never have a dex that high, so using actual light armor is an ac hit.Regardless, while the +2 to hit and damage is nice at low levels, the general crappiness of an amulet of mighty fists make unarmed strikes still harder to enchant at high levels than gauntlets.
minoritarian |
Has the whole gauntlets counting as unarmed strikes for weapon focus and effects been resolved yet? Or still undetermined. Somehow Hero Lab got convinced it did (probably from one of the older threads on it) and I don't know if I missed a ruling on it now that someone's mentioning unarmed + brawling armor right after talk of shield gauntlet style.
I just submitted a bug report as gauntlets can't even be chosen with weapon focus/signature weapon in hero lab.
(choosing unarmed strike with either doesn't affect gauntlets, nor do any traits that increase damage.)
Protoman |
(choosing unarmed strike with either doesn't affect gauntlets, nor do any traits that increase damage.)
Really? It worked with Weapon Focus and Specialization on my Hero Lab. Did you set your identity to vigilante? Hero Lab currently doesn't grant the vigilante bonus feats (other than from Combat Skill) to the social identity.
Currently traits don't affect gauntlets, thankfully.
Also I noticed that equipping monk's robe increased the the damage dice of gauntlets in Hero Lab too.
ZZTRaider |
The point I was making is that the heaviest armor you can use is a chain shirt. You can't make a Brawling Mithral Breastplate because while mithral allows you to wear medium armor as if it were one category lighter, it is still actually medium armor for the purposes of what you can enchant it with.
Is there a specific ruling about that somewhere?
"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. ... This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor."
What enchantments you put on the armor isn't a matter of the character's proficiency, so I'd expect it to fall firmly under the "other limitations", for which a mithral breastplate is considered light armor.
Protoman |
Protoman wrote:Has the whole gauntlets counting as unarmed strikes for weapon focus and effects been resolved yet? Or still undetermined. Somehow Hero Lab got convinced it did (probably from one of the older threads on it) and I don't know if I missed a ruling on it now that someone's mentioning unarmed + brawling armor right after talk of shield gauntlet style.I just submitted a bug report as gauntlets can't even be chosen with weapon focus/signature weapon in hero lab.
(choosing unarmed strike with either doesn't affect gauntlets, nor do any traits that increase damage.)
From what I gathered Hero lab changed it on the Version 12.2 Update on Sept 2, 2015
Paizo has clarified that the Gauntlet weapon should not be a separate selection for things like the weapon focus feat, and is instead a modifier to unarmed strikes, so the deity Ng, whose favored weapon is the gauntlet, has been changed to favored weapon: unarmed strike (including the PFS rule that deities with unarmed strike as a favored weapon grant improved unarmed strike to their clerics as a bonus feat). Previously, followers of Ng could not take the Weapon of the Chosen feat tree because weapon focus (gauntlet) was not available in Hero Lab.
I still don't know what Paizo declared (if anything) actually clarified such a thing.
Protoman |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Imbicatus wrote:The point I was making is that the heaviest armor you can use is a chain shirt. You can't make a Brawling Mithral Breastplate because while mithral allows you to wear medium armor as if it were one category lighter, it is still actually medium armor for the purposes of what you can enchant it with.Is there a specific ruling about that somewhere?
"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. ... This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor."
What enchantments you put on the armor isn't a matter of the character's proficiency, so I'd expect it to fall firmly under the "other limitations", for which a mithral breastplate is considered light armor.
It got ruled upon in an FAQ:
Mithral armor: What exactly does it mean when it says mithral armor is counted as one category lighter for “other limitations?”
This means that mithral armor allows its wearer to use it when her own class features or special abilities demand her to wear lighter armor; in other words, the character wearing the armor is less limited. For example, a bard can cast spells in mithral breastplate without arcane spell failure, a barbarian can use her fast movement in mithral fullplate, a ranger can use his combat style in mithral fullplate, brawlers, swashbucklers, and gunslingers can keep their nimble bonus in mithral breastplate, rogues keep evasion in mithral breastplate, a brawler can flurry in mithral breastplate, characters without Endurance can sleep in mithral breastplate without becoming fatigued, and so on. It does not change the armor’s actual category, which means that you can still store a creature one size category larger in a hosteling mithral fullplate, and you can’t enhance a mithral breastplate with special abilities that require it to be light armor, like brawling (though you could enhance it with special abilities that require it to be medium armor), and so on.
Mithral doesn't change the actual type of armor, just some limitations when interacting with it. That's why proficiency and armor-type specific enhancements aren't affected.
Gravefiller613 |
Just had a long post eaten by the post monster.
I'd consider a finesse TWF dagger build which uses the returning weapon talent to add an extra tactical option for full attacking on a regular basis.
Daggers cause deific obedience Pharasma compensates for the lack of to hit bonuses.
And take the River Rat Trait