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So my players were off to kill an ancient copper dragon (yes, my PCs are evil).
But ancient copper dragons have antimagic field.
What dragon that has access to antimagic field would not cast it as their very first action and then melee the crap out of would be dragonslayers?
Consider, for the dragon, casting antimagic field means that any weapons coming at it (melee or ranged) are no longer magical, so its DR/15 magic soaks up damage.
Its AC 39 makes it extremely difficult for a melee character to hit (especially one that was relying on a lot of magic to boost its numbers), reducing them to "fishing for 20's".
Any spellcasters are pretty much useless.
So, how does one go about killing a dragon that has antimagic field up?
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So my players were off to kill an ancient copper dragon (yes, my PCs are evil).
But ancient copper dragons have antimagic field.What dragon that has access to antimagic field would not cast it as their very first action and then melee the crap out of would be dragonslayers?
Consider, for the dragon, casting antimagic field means that any weapons coming at it (melee or ranged) are no longer magical, so its DR/15 magic soaks up damage.
Its AC 39 makes it extremely difficult for a melee character to hit (especially one that was relying on a lot of magic to boost its numbers), reducing them to "fishing for 20's".Any spellcasters are pretty much useless.
So, how does one go about killing a dragon that has antimagic field up?
Damage Reduction is a Supernatural Ability and is shut down in antimagic field, the exact same as other magical abilities.
Ancient Copper Dragons (the kind with AC 39 and DR 15/magic) get most of their AC from their size... but there are a few issues they face, as well.
Namely, they lose access to their spells, spell-likes, breath weapons, and supernatural abilities.
That leaves them with their (potent) teeth and claws and wings and tail, Climb Stone ability, and Trapmaster ability.
That means they're vulnerable to flanking, granting some nice +2s to attacks.
The issue would be keeping them grounded (or the warriors airborne), but that's a thing in general.
If the mages Call some creatures instead of Summoning them, the creatures will persist, even within an antimagic field (though the mage would want to compensate them very well, or select creatures who had a specific grudge against either this dragon or something like a blood feud with copper dragons in general or something).
Of course, this could just be resolved if you gave them literally any other 6th level or lower sorcerer spell. :D
EDIT: NINJAAAAAASSS~!
Gunslingers.
Dang it, Gore-batch; stop ninja'ing me with better suggestions every time! ;p
Smite good, lantern archons (yup whole load of em-who told you evil arcane casters/oracles can't summon them) and a dancing bard.
Even in AMF, consider getting a dedicated grappler onto it(if the dragon will land, else the only way anyone can grapple him is to be a winged aasimar).
I don't think either smite good or lantern archon light rays would work in an antimagic field?
And, if you mean dervish dancer, those abilities definitely don't function in an AMF.
This scenario happened in a 3.5 game I was in. The party was caster heavy and this was pretty much the climax to the campaign. Basically the entire party became useless as they watched the Warlock flying around blasting (somehow one of his abilities still worked).
In the end I think the party was hiding in a box of prismatic walls while the dragon just stood outside waiting to eat us when the spell ended.
All in all not a good ending. Haven't had players together with that GM since.
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Damage Reduction is a Supernatural Ability and is shut down in antimagic field, the exact same as other magical abilities.Ancient Copper Dragons (the kind with AC 39 and DR 15/magic) get most of their AC from their size... but there are a few issues they face, as well.
Namely, they lose access to their spells, spell-likes, breath weapons, and supernatural abilities.
That leaves them with their (potent) teeth and claws and wings and tail, Climb Stone ability, and Trapmaster ability.
That means they're vulnerable to flanking, granting some nice +2s to attacks.
The issue would be keeping them grounded (or the warriors airborne), but that's a thing in general.
If the mages Call some creatures instead of Summoning them, the creatures will persist, even within an antimagic field (though the mage would want to compensate them very well, or select creatures who had a specific grudge against either this dragon or something like a blood feud with...
I did go looking to see whether DR was (Ex) or (Su) and I couldn't find anything that said definitively that a dragon's DR was one or the other.
I suppose I should detail the party that was fighting the dragon.
Antipaladin 14
Vampire Inquisitor 12
Warpriest 14
Arcane Archer (can't recall the exact spread of classes) 14
absent
Sorceror 14 (who doesn't have any summoning spells as I recall)
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They are not only evil, but also fools if decided to attach the dragon without a plan and without a proper preparation.
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From the PRD
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su) A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.
The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability.
Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage. Others are vulnerable to certain materials, such as adamantine, alchemical silver, or cold-forged iron. Attacks from weapons that are not of the correct type or made of the correct material have their damage reduced, although a high enhancement bonus can overcome some forms of damage reduction.
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotic-, or lawful-aligned weapons, such as from an align weapon spell or the holy magical weapon property. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.
When a damage reduction entry has a dash (—) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction.
A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon, such as “cold iron or magic.” A weapon that inflicts damage of either of these types overcomes this damage reduction.
A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction (such as “magic and silver”), and a weapon must be both types to overcome this type of damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.
And I do see a number of class features that specifically mention that the DR they provide is Ex.
But that doesn't by default indicate that the Dragon's DR is Su in nature.
So my players were off to kill an ancient copper dragon (yes, my PCs are evil).
But ancient copper dragons have antimagic field.What dragon that has access to antimagic field would not cast it as their very first action and then melee the crap out of would be dragonslayers?
Consider, for the dragon, casting antimagic field means that any weapons coming at it (melee or ranged) are no longer magical, so its DR/15 magic soaks up damage.
Its AC 39 makes it extremely difficult for a melee character to hit (especially one that was relying on a lot of magic to boost its numbers), reducing them to "fishing for 20's".Any spellcasters are pretty much useless.
So, how does one go about killing a dragon that has antimagic field up?
One thing you forgot Antimagic field turns off all Supernatural, Spell-like, magic items, and spells.
This means the dragon becomes just a brute (still great AC/hit chances though).a. Magic DR becomes DR 0/everything in an antimagic field because it too is magic.
b. It does have high AC true.
c. Magic that has no SR can freely cast into an antimagic field. So spellcasters can still hurt it.
Gun users can hurt it as guns within first range attack vs touch AC.
A Widened Pit spell would work as none have SR.
Really, Conj is best useage as it rarely has SR.
Wis/Sorc list:
Even at first level,Snowball works: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/snowball , but sadly it is only 1d6/caster.
2nd level spells: Cloud of Seasickness to sicken it. Glitterdust to Blind it. Stone call, but only 2d6 damage. Summon Swarm Swarm auto hits and deals Xd6/rd.
3rd level spells: Ice Spears (as it is huge it can be hit by all the spears unless flying), Swarm of fangs as a Swarm auto hits and deals 2d6/rd.
4th level spells: None really seem too good by the Solid Fog.
5th: Geyser would hurt it (reflex 1/2), Cloudkill deals Com damage with a Fort 1/2.
6th: Chains of Light auto paralyzes, but get a save on their turn to remove it each round.
7th: Incendiary Cloud, Rain of Arrows, Wall of Lava
Not sure of can cast more than 7th in your party. But they have options.
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As far as I know there's no clear formal way of deciding if a creature's DR is Ex or Su. If the DR is based on the monster being physically tough, it should probably be Ex. If it's based on magic, a "curse", or the creature's spiritual nature, probably Su.
So, in general:
Ex
DR x/-, such as on elementals
Adamantine, such as on golems (but watch out for Stoneskin)
Piercing/Bludgeoning/Slashing (such as skeletons/zombies)
Su
Alignment
Magic
Silver
Cold Iron
---
As an aside, a Lantern Archon's light rays are Ex. They can go through almost anything, yet fail to hurt the Incorporeal shadow because they're not magical.
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c. Magic that has no SR can freely cast into an antimagic field. So spellcasters can still hurt it.
Where do you read this?
Antimagic Fdeld sais that:"An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area", no exceptions for spell without SR.
And then that "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.": you can cast Ice Spears spell outside the field, and then if the dragon comes close to the spears they will not disappear, but you cannot cast the spell inside the field, so to hit the dragon.
Whether DR is (Su) or (Ex), in most cases can be determined by the type of DR.
Easy Ones: DR/bludgening for skeletons, DR/slashing zombies, most other physical specific damage type. Clearly this is Ex, since it is a property of their physical body that creates the DR.
DR/Good-Evil-etc. for Outsiders. This is clearly Su, it is a supernatural ability due to being beings of true Good/Evil/etc.
DR/Magic is MUCH more dependent on how you see the source of the DR. For Dragons, is the DR b/c the creature has his body magically enhanced? An example of this would be a Vampire. I would say a Vampire's DR/Silver and Magic is (Su), b/c it is a product of their magical ability to ignore or instantly heal damage (a good *fluff* description of this in action can be seen in Pathfinder Tales: Bloodbound).
For a Dragon, I would argue it is (Ex). I would say that the reason Dragons have DR is probably because of Smaug from "The Hobbit." Tolkien's description of this mighty hide likely influenced Gygax and early D&D writers to include DR for Dragons. The argument is that a Dragon's hide is so strong and durable, only the strongest of blows or magically enhanced weapons can even hope to damage the Dragon.
All that being said, it can easily go either way. Really a GM call.
Back to OP question: you can still use magic, but you will have to limit yourself to "instantaneous conjurations." Also "Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field." So any spell that says "as wall of force" should also work.
DR turning off:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities
"Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable."
As you can see Supernatural. Thus shut off in the field.
In 3.5, for example, they categorized which aren't turned off:
EX: Damage Type (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning), Nothing (unbreachable), Adamantine
SU: Aligned (good/evil/law/chaos), Epic (+6 or more), Magic (+1 or more), Achemical Silver, Cold Iron
Ex DR was not turned off.
EDIT: Wow, there are a lot of ninjas!
EDIT 2: Here we go! Quote added for context.
I did go looking to see whether DR was (Ex) or (Su) and I couldn't find anything that said definitively that a dragon's DR was one or the other.
I suppose I should detail the party that was fighting the dragon.
Antipaladin 14
Vampire Inquisitor 12
Warpriest 14
Arcane Archer (can't recall the exact spread of classes) 14absent
Sorceror 14 (who doesn't have any summoning spells as I recall)
The damage reduction link I gave in my post starts with the following:
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.
(Bold is mine, for emphasis.)
Given that it has a quality of DR/magic, it seems that it would, functionally, need to be a magical ability in order to interact with magic in any appreciable way.
Vampires keep their spider-climb ability, which should let them cling to the dragon after reaching it.
The archer is probably going to be fine. He can just pepper the dude at all times without much problem.
The antipaladin should also be okay. At minimum, he's rocking a +14, and probably a solid attack bonus beyond that. Flanking bonuses can and should net you up to a +6 with flanking assistance from your party, meaning that the attack value you're looking for from him would be equal to (19 - ability modifier) .
The sorcerer still isn't useless, though - he can get items to allow him to conjure creatures, reliably... he's likely got a high charisma, and a solid caster level.
The warpriest ain't lookin' so hot, but just load the dude up with a bag full of loaded double hackbut (or maybe just pistols, if you're on a budget). Have him ride the dragon and attack at will ignoring any misfires by tossing the gun aside.
((I suppose you could give him the Amateur Gunslinger with Quick Clear Deed to keep them working).
Or maybe just drug the critter until it (specifically, enough aether to drop its CON to 0 and win. :D
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My 2cp: A dragon's DR should be ex just like their SR.
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Back to OP question: you can still use magic, but you will have to limit yourself to "instantaneous conjurations." Also "Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field." So any spell that says "as wall of force" should also work.
You can lure the dragon in a cloud or against a prismatic wall, but you cannot cast in the field:
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it.[...]Summoned creatures of any type wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away.[...](The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)[...]Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field. Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
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There are loads of ways to combat a dragon in an antimagic field.
What PCs are in the party? And what level are they?
The party
Antipaladin 14Vampire Inquisitor 12
Warpriest 14
Arcane Archer (can't recall the exact spread of classes) 14
absent
Sorceror 14 (who doesn't have any summoning spells as I recall)
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EDIT: Wow, there are a lot of ninjas!
The damage reduction link I gave in my post starts with the following:
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.(Bold is mine, for emphasis.)
Given that it has a quality of DR/magic, it seems that it would, functionally, need to be a magical ability in order to interact with magic in any appreciable way.
Vampires keep their spider-climb ability, which should let them cling to the dragon after reaching it.
The archer is probably going to be fine. He can just pepper the dude at all times without much problem.
The antipaladin should also be okay. At minimum, he's rocking a +14, and probably a solid attack bonus beyond that. Flanking bonuses can and should net you up to a +6 with flanking assistance from your party, meaning that the attack value you're looking for from him would be equal to (19 - ability modifier) .
The sorcerer still isn't useless, though - he can get items to allow him to conjure creatures, reliably... he's likely got a high charisma, and a solid caster level.
The warpriest ain't lookin' so hot, but just load the dude up with a bag full of loaded double hackbut (or maybe just pistols, if you're on a budget). Have him ride the dragon and attack at will ignoring any misfires by tossing the gun aside.
((I suppose you could give him the Amateur Gunslinger with Quick Clear Deed to keep them working).Or maybe just drug the critter until it (specifically, enough aether to drop its...
Yes, I read the link you gave, which was to the d20pfsrd site. The one I posted was from Paizo's site (sorry, but I always take Paizo's version over the d20pfsrd one).
During the session, I ran the Dragon's DR as Ex, thus it wasn't suppressed.
The vampire's issue was that it was daytime (and sunny to boot), and his magic item that keeps him safe from the sun would be inert, thus burnt to a crisp (which is what happened when the dragon caught up to him).
The archer could barely hit it while outside the AMF. When he got charged by the dragon he couldn't hit it or do any damage. [we found out when a Strength Composite Longbow was more value than the Adaptive enhancement.]
The Antipaladin did close, but with a poor damage ratio (he did something like 15pts of damage, the dragon did 90+) he decided to run away.
The warpriest didn't have any guns (seriously none of the players inquired as to what level of firearms were in the game... /shrug).
The sorcerer was all evocation dmg or charm type spells. No mass conjuring there, and I think even if she did conjure something, it would not have been very effective. But it was moot since the player couldn't make the session.
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With great difficulty!
The sorcerer was all evocation dmg or charm type spells. No mass conjuring there, and I think even if she did conjure something, it would not have been very effective. But it was moot since the player couldn't make the session.
That doesn't reflect the sorcerer's ability to utilize purchased magical items at all, which was what I suggesting.
That said, as for the rest: meh. If you or your players don't want it, it's not really a thing. Those were merely ideas based off of your initial question and why they work. (Drugs still work, though.)
Similarly, taking Paizo's site over the d20pfsrd is a good idea, so nothing to be sorry about, at least to me. I just vastly prefer the other, because it's far easier to search, clarify, and cross reference everything. As I rarely peruse the PRD anymore (because it's extremely irritating, layout-wise, to me) I only quoted what I knew, and I missed the context that you looked at the local PRD instead. :)
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As an aside, a Lantern Archon's light rays are Ex. They can go through almost anything, yet fail to hurt the Incorporeal shadow because they're not magical.
This is fascinating! I didn't realize that! Thanks!
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How you ask? Disjunction.
Oh they aren't high enough level.
Become large/huge. An AMF only effects things entirely within the field.
Can I get a source on that?
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I have used the tactic as a DM myself. A dragon in an AMF is still a dragon after all.
The PCs were a bit higher level, but the dragon was a bit more impressive too, so it mostly worked about the same. The party had to come up with different tactics, work together and dig deep, but they were able to beat it. Some characters had to give up their usual roles, finding other ways to help (our inquisitor who relied on an agile rapier for melee ended up mostly using aid another to help the big STR guy hit for example).
I found it to be a fun session to run, and I think the players enjoyed it, although they did complain some when they first discovered most of their usual tricks were not going to work.
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Can I get a source on that?How you ask? Disjunction.
Oh they aren't high enough level.
Become large/huge. An AMF only effects things entirely within the field.
The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.In the context of pathfinder within means completely within. I forget which FAQ it was but basically within is synonymous with completely within. While "In" is partially within or completely within.
I'm sorry but I do not find that to be a convincing argument.
Admittedly it still leads to weird situations of "What happens to characters only partially inside an Antimagic Field?", which is what got the spell changed for dragons so that they would be completely covered by the spell.
Your solution is easier to adjudicate, but I don't find your argument to be reasonable evidence to arrive at your conclusion.
I see the battle went as expected...the question is if they knew the Dragon would cast AMF.
If so, they went in very unprepared.
Thing is, if the dragon casts AMF, it affects it just as much as it's enemies.
I love USING AMF in my games, as it is a very effective way to counter spellcasters...BUT there are very effective ways to bypass it.
It does not stop naturally occurring phenomena, and so the more effective thing is to cause natural events or actions that cause harm than trying to harm the dragon directly. Things like a natural storm over the area and then activating the electrons right at the flying dragon to attract lightning strikes (and lightning DOES strike more than once at a single spot in nature, it really is dependant on the charges at the location...Just ask Jim Caviezel about it!).
You can cause high winds to toss trees or other massive objects around, if you have someone with the Strength to do it, toss boulders like a Hill Giant or other Giant.
It's about using the environment to your best advantage. Part of that is setting up the area before hand and luring the dragon into your trap (who fights a dragon on it's terms...crazy adventurers who want to die...that's who!)
You have to look at it as trying to take the beast down without direct magical attacks, but magic can still play a major role in the game with indirect effects.
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The situation reminds me of this.
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This scenario happened in a 3.5 game I was in. The party was caster heavy and this was pretty much the climax to the campaign. Basically the entire party became useless as they watched the Warlock flying around blasting (somehow one of his abilities still worked).
3.5 Warlock had 'Vitriolic Blast' which was a no SR Acid attack mod for their eldritch blast. It was the only non SR attack they ever got. Was a higher level ability IIRC. It was the only attack they got that was useful against golems and against the Clay Golem it was worse that useless.
For a Dragon, I would argue it is (Ex). I would say that the reason Dragons have DR is probably because of Smaug from "The Hobbit." Tolkien's description of this mighty hide likely influenced Gygax and early D&D writers to include DR for Dragons.
As a quick point of trivia, D&D did not have DR until 3rd edition so I can guarantee that 'Gygax and early D&D writers' did not include it for dragons. While you are very much correct in that Smaug definitely would have influenced them, it was reflected in dragons Armor Classes and Magic Resistances, which were usually some of the highest in the game.
Armor class had an absolute cap in pre 3.0 games, it was effectively what AC 31 would be now.
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Pre-3.0, there were some monsters that required +X to hit at all; that's the precursor to DR.
I just checked DR in my 3.0 Bestiary, and there it's just a Su ability, no mention of it being Ex for anyone. And I do remember a Dragon magazine article advising that AMF is quite good for taking down demons/devils, because such a large part of their CR is from magical abilities. It reminded the reader also that the AMF would shut off the DR. So this is definitely not a new phenomenon.
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The 3.5 SRD actually says which DR types are magic and which ones aren't. I would probably go with that, since Pathfinder doesn't say one way or the other.
Push-ups, sit-ups, and plenty of juice.
But for real though? An artifact weapon. Artifacts aren't affected by antimagic field. Little-known fact.
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Have them higher a high level bard, with maxed bluff, diplomacy, ands slight of hand. Then use successful skill checks to hide a scythe on your person and get access to the dragon's layer. After a vigorous night of ... "barding" coup de grace it in its sleep. After all, are not bards the very reason half dragon is a template?
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So this is a great meta-question, because nerfing the use of magic is a major wrench for nearly all Pathfinder parties.
It's also a really fun way to make a tank PC or NPC or dragon NPC suddenly SUPER relevant. Try this with your favorite party barbarian against the BBEG wizard/cleric/druid.
With your party comp the way it was, with no warning and no prep, you were pretty screwed if you goal was "win" and very unlikely to meet the goal of "no body dies" with a bunch of undead bumming around in the sunlight.
The reality is, in you specific situation, the optimum choice was absolutely, "run away, sacrificing whoever you need to to get most of the party away." With a party your level, that's actually translated as, "Get away and sacrifice whoever is easiest to raise/unraise."
The vampire needed to gaseous form into a crevasse somewhere and hide.
Saying "the rules don't let a dragon get fully surrounded by the AMS" isn't really relevant in most home games where the DM is going to handwave and make a giant AMS.
To beat a little tarrasque with no regen, which is essentially what you have here, you need to:
1.) Stop it from doing what it does best: base a PC and multi attack. This is done by stepping away and making it go in multiple directions. unless it has combat reflexes, you take a hit on the charge and a hit on the fall back, instead of 5 hits a round.
2.) Deal any damage to it possible from range.
3.) move your harassing circle of PC's so that when the focus of it's love falls back, they can get heals before they get charged and AMS'ed again.
4.) Keep in mind that it's simply a tough opponent and it'd probably be easier to flee and come back with counters to AMS.
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Send in an attractive lady with Trap the Soul cast on a gem and present both as a gift. Gifts accepted, no saving throw, SLURP!
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Send in an attractive lady with Trap the Soul cast on a gem and present both as a gift. Gifts accepted, no saving throw, SLURP!
Or it could be an attractive boy. Lady dragons have needs too!
So another thing on your checklist... check dragon's gender.
-Rely on the AMF to remove spells that are neutralizing/storing various deadly things.
-Siege weapons.
-Hide while AMF runs out. Underwater is a good place; underground is even better.
-Recruit a dragon ally.
The antimagic dragon was a lot nicer in 3.5 with metabreath feats from the draconomicon.
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There are loads of ways to combat a dragon in an antimagic field.
What PCs are in the party? And what level are they?
The party
Antipaladin 14
Vampire Inquisitor 12
Warpriest 14
Arcane Archer (can't recall the exact spread of classes) 14absent
Sorceror 14 (who doesn't have any summoning spells as I recall)
Nope! this party won't make it. Their best chance is to hire gunslingers or reprogram a huge robot from Numeria.
Good luck! :)
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As an aside, a Lantern Archon's light rays are Ex. They can go through almost anything, yet fail to hurt the Incorporeal shadow because they're not magical.This is fascinating! I didn't realize that! Thanks!
Lantern Archons being summoned has been known as 'Golembane' for some time now.
Note that CALLED, as opposed to Summoned creatures are not hedged out by the AMF. So you could Call up something big and ask it to fight the dragon on your behalf.
an evil party using some very large monsters to make enhanced undead is another alternative.
As you saw, the biggest thing the AMF does to melees is not its DR, it's making it HARD TO HIT. Losing stat bonuses, weapon bonuses, and combat buffs is a huge TH penalty for a high level melee to overcome (-8 TH or more).
Note that a Melee who can stay out of range of the AMF, such as an Enlarged One with a Reach Weapon, could still attack it and keep some bonuses. Vital Strike might be reasonable to use in such a case.
Lastly, alchemical bombs. In the AMF, clusters of alchemical items are still perfectly useful, they aren't magical. Something crazy like polymorhping clusters of ten alchemical frost bottles into thrown rocks and tossing them at the dragon would work fine. They hit the AMF, revert to vials, and smash against his touch AC for 10-60 cold damage. Repeat a dozen times and its dead.
If the whole party does this, its likely dead in one round. Cost you time and a little money, but easy enough to do.
Note: I use 10d6 as the limit because normal fires max out their damage at 10d6, and normal acids max theirs at the same with Immersion damage at 10d6. Magical stuff can get up to 20d6, but alchemy isn't magical.
So...barrels of alchemical stuff and lantern archons, I guess, and Created corporeal undead.
==Aelryinth