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If one first casts silence
"Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use Spell Resistance, if any. Items in a creature's possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and Spell Resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects."
and then casts howling agony
"You send wracking pains through the targets’ bodies. Because of the pain, affected creatures take a –2 penalty to AC, attacks, melee damage rolls, and Reflex saving throws, and must succeed at a concentration check (DC equal to the DC of this spell) to cast spells. However, if an affected creature spends a move action screaming as loudly as possible, it can act without any other penalties for the remainder of its turn. “Screaming,” for the purposes of this spell, includes any vocalization of pain or its telepathic equivalent; creatures that cannot scream (such as creatures without the natural ability to communicate or vocalize) suffer the full effect of the spell."
are creatures then incapable of spending a move action screaming, so they have to suffer the full effects of howling agony?
PS: Mesmerist here, so silence doesn't bother me as far as casting spells. And yes, this is a serious question, and not some theoretical game. About to get level 6 (mesmerist level 4) and wonder if I should take both of these.
PPS: Look at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_No_Mouth,_and_I_Must_Scream
if you don't get the reference.
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Looks like it would work fine. Vocalization requires sound, so if they can't make sounds, they can't scream. Seems like it takes a lot of effort to set up, though.
I like your response better...lol...now we just need to get a consensus for my GM...
PS: If my GM is reading this, hi there!
I'd say the fact that the scream in question is unable to be heard due to the silence doesn't matter. It isn't the generation of sound that is the impetus for the "counter" to the howling agony spell, it is the physical action of the scream. Even though "in space, they can't hear you scream" you can still, in fact, scream.
Darn it, got ninja'd.
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No cause they can still scream as hard and as loud as they want, it's just that no one can hear it.
silence stops sound, not what's causing it.
Note that the description for howling agony does say that creatures that cannot vocalize are out of luck.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vocalize
The above seems to indicate that people that can't make a sound can't vocalize (e.g., "to make voiced rather than voiceless.")
...“Screaming,” for the purposes of this spell, includes any vocalization of pain or its telepathic equivalent; creatures that cannot scream (such as creatures without the natural ability to communicate or vocalize) suffer the full effect of the spell."
After reading the comments, my opinion is that, if in the area of silence, you would suffer the full effects of howling agony because it calls out vocalization of pain, which you cannot do, not visualization of pain.
For those arguing that silence does not prevent the screaming it just stops the sound of the scream then by such reasoning silence should not prevent spells with a verbal component from being cast?
For those arguing that silence does not prevent the screaming it just stops the sound of the scream then by such reasoning silence should not prevent spells with a verbal component from being cast?No, because Silence explicitly states that it prevents spell casting.
It also stops all sound, and vocalization requires what? Sound of course. So if you can't make a sound you can't... VOCALIZE! Yes!
I don't think there's a problem here.
It depends on how narrowly you view the phrase "creatures that cannot scream." You can still scream, there's just no noise. Silence does not impede your ability to forcefully expel air from you lungs, nor shaping the air with you vocal cords and mouth. The air still comes out, there's just no sound.
Is that enough to count for howling agony? I dunno.
Wow, no no no.
You can absolutely scream when silenced. Your vocal chords still vibrate and become damaged, it is just that the sound is magically suppressed. Do you think magical darkness makes your eyes stop receiving visual stimuli? Absolutely not.
It's neat in theory, but no.
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"or its telepathic equivalent" has nothing to do with actual sound.
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Yeah, I don't think that works: they are still screaming, it's just that no one can hear them. It's like a "tree falling in the forest" thing.
However, OP, you're in luck: there's a spell that should work with what you want to do. Lipstitch sews their mouth shut, so I'm fairly sure that prevents them from screaming.
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"However, if an affected creature spends a move action screaming as loudly as possible, it can act without any other penalties for the remainder of its turn."
In this instance, as loudly as possible is total silence.
Lipstitch would not work either. They just scream with their mouth shut.
While I see both sides of the argument, I agree that Silence most likely does negate the ability to scream, as Howling Agony does specifically defines "scream" for us as "any vocalization of pain".
Silence stops any sound (read: vocalization) from existing in the area, which means things inside cannot scream. (Yeah, they can move their vocal cords and mime" like they're screaming, but that's something that can already be accomplished outside of the silence.)
So, targets that fail their Fortitude save against Howling Agony inside of an area of Silence should suffer the full effects of the spell.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Disclaimer: none of this next part is supported by any rules. You've been warned.
Besides, someone spending one full round to cast Silence (or the slot to Quicken it) and then cast Howling Agony to impart a -2 on saves/attacks/AC, etc. on a target/level for rounds/level unless they move out of the area isn't too powerful.
It allows a Fortitude save, and if you want the Silence to be centered on one of your enemies, it gives a Will save.
I'm completely fine with allowing this convo, should anyone bring it to me.
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You can absolutely scream when silenced. Your vocal chords still vibrate and become damaged, it is just that the sound is magically suppressed.the area has been silenced. but it does not in anyway stop you from spending your move action to exert or express your pain by screamingIn this instance, as loudly as possible is total silence.“Screaming,” for the purposes of this spell, includes any vocalization of pain or its telepathic equivalent.Vocalization, by definition, requires sound. If you're not making sound, you're not vocalizing. If you're not vocalizing, you're not screaming.
Screaming is explicitly defined within the text of the spell to resolve exactly this sort of dispute, and I don't know why everyone keeps coming up with their own definition to replace it. If you're not making sound, you're not screaming. It's as simple as that."or its telepathic equivalent" has nothing to do with actual soundYou do realize that "telepathic" doesn't just mean "mental," right? If you're not actually using telepathy, you have to vocalize. If you have to vocalize, you have to make sound.
if there where a mind reader in the room he would hear the howl of painBut there isn't, is there?
Silence does not make you unable to scream. You are still vocalizing, it's just no one can hear it. If there was a spell that turned liquid to air immediate and you had to go number 1. You do your business but the snow doesn't turn yellow. You still did the deed, you are not sitting there with a still full bladder.
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Silence does not make you unable to scream. You are still vocalizing, it's just no one can hear it. If there was a spell that turned liquid to air immediate and you had to go number 1. You do your business but the snow doesn't turn yellow. You still did the deed, you are not sitting there with a still full bladder.
The only thing that makes me doubt this is things like
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Components
As it makes it seem if your spell has a verbal component but you are silenced, then you can say you are still "vocalizing the verbal component". But we know that is not how pathfinder works. You don't satisfy the verbal component of a spell if you are silenced.
So I am unsure how one can "vocalize" while silenced.
Regardless, thanks to everyone for contributing to the thread. I enjoyed reading everything and everyone's perspectives.
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Dood,
"Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use Spell Resistance, if any. Items in a creature's possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and Spell Resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects."
This spell does in no way do what you're saying it does. True, it doesn't deafen people, but it also doesn't stop anything that creates sound. It just stops sound. Nothing more, nothing less.
Going off your interpretation a Silenced area would also cause people to suffocate since they can't breathe, cause breathing makes noise.
Talking and screaming are physical actions that your body performs through the use of muscles and your lungs. If your silenced, you can scream, if you have your mouth sewn shut, you still scream.
You can still perform this physical action, just as you can still walk and attack.
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And it will also still burn your ass, because it still exists.
Going at it from howling agony to silence you just need to vocalize you pain as loud as possible. Okay. You vocalize your pain. AS loud as you can. As loud as you can just happens to be 0 since someone hit the mute button. But you're still vocalizing. As loud as you can.
Avaron is unoquivically wrong.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
Yes. The perception of stimuli is in no way contingent upon the existence of the stimuli. Silence does not prevent the source of noise.
And even ignoring that, Rysky is correct that the spell says as loud as you can. If you're unable to scream, then you don't need to do anything.
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Avaron is unoquivically wrong.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
Yes. The perception of stimuli is in no way contingent upon the existence of the stimuli. Silence does not prevent the source of noise.
And even ignoring that, Rysky is correct that the spell says as loud as you can. If you're unable to scream, then you don't need to do anything.
Well no that's just it, you can still scream, you're just muted :3
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Avaron is unoquivically wrong.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
Yes. The perception of stimuli is in no way contingent upon the existence of the stimuli. Silence does not prevent the source of noise.
And even ignoring that, Rysky is correct that the spell says as loud as you can. If you're unable to scream, then you don't need to do anything.
Avaron is not unequivocally wrong. If a tree falls in the forest and no one hers it, it does make a sound. The vibrations in the air happen, but the sound is, by definition, the perception of those vibrations.
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Avaron is not unequivocally wrong. If a tree falls in the forest and no one hers it, it does make a sound. The vibrations in the air happen, but the sound is, by definition, the perception of those vibrations.Avaron is unoquivically wrong.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
Yes. The perception of stimuli is in no way contingent upon the existence of the stimuli. Silence does not prevent the source of noise.
And even ignoring that, Rysky is correct that the spell says as loud as you can. If you're unable to scream, then you don't need to do anything.
... So are you agreeing or disagreeing with Avaron?
And regardless of whether the tree makes a sound when it falls, it still makes the crash and the thump and the rumble, the things that make the sounds.
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And it will also still burn your ass, because it still exists.Just like those throat movements will still strain your throat, because they still exist. But they won't make any sound, just like a torch in a darkness spell won't make any light.
You're basically defeating your own argument by agreeing that those actions still exist, they're just muted.
But you're still vocalizing.No, you really, really aren't.
Vocalizing is making sound.
You appear to be claiming that you are making sound, and the amount of sound you're making just happens to be zero. But making zero sound is not making sound. Just like making zero light is not making light, or making zero jumping jacks is not making jumping jacks.
Your argument is equivalent to claiming that a magma mephit's fast healing is always active, because they are clearly in contact with magma. It just happens to be zero magma
No, you're not making sound. You're making the action that's causing the sound.
The mephit analogy is completely left field to this conversation and also nonsensical. It also doesn't say anywhere the Mehit is actually made of magma, the only way I can see this conversation coming up would be when it uses its magma form ability to actually turn into lava.
In other words, "You can still make noise, you're just prevented from making noise."
Nooooooooo, you can still scream, the scream just doesn't make any noise. Notice that silence doesn't say anywhere that you can't talk, just that conversation is impossible. You can still talk, but you're muted. You can still scream, but you're muted.
Well since everybody is in agreement but one stubborn person who refuses to change their mind, I'm going to lay this to rest. Ask your GM what his/her interpretation is. Even if they rule that it works, it's far from a game-breaking combo.
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No, you're not making sound.Thank you! Now we have a common basis to start from.
I have never once said you're still making sound, you're not. You're MAKING THE ACTION THAT CAUSES THE SOUND. You seem to be under the impression that a scream is just a noise, and not an action and an accompanying sound.
You're making the action that's causing the sound.Not quite. As we just agreed, there's no sound being made. You're making an action that would normally cause sound, but because of the silence spell, cannot cause sound in this instance.
And as you just agreed with me YOU'RE STILL SCREAMING EVEN IF NO SOUND IS BEING MADE.
you can still scream, the scream just doesn't make any noiseIf we were just left to our own devices to come up with a definition for the word "scream," that would be a debatable but acceptable response.
This spell, however, provides us with a precise definition of the word. For the purpose of this spell, "screaming" requires vocalizing.
Hence, my argument:
1. Screaming requires vocalizing.
2. Vocalizing requires making sound.
3. If you cannot make sound, you cannot vocalize.
4. If you cannot vocalize, you cannot scream.
5. If you cannot make sound, you cannot scream.
6. In an area of silence, you cannot make sound.
7. In an area of silence you cannot scream.Which step do you disagree with?
*rolls eyes*
If you want to be pedantic, step 2, you're still vocalizing, they're just being silenced, muted. But they still exist. I seem to have erred in using using sound/noise interchangeably, whatever it is you doing, speaking, screaming, it still happens, it still exists, it's just muted.
So just because your vocalization is silenced doesn't make it not exist, because it very much does.
"You send wracking pains through the targets’ bodies. Because of the pain, affected creatures take a –2 penalty to AC, attacks, melee damage rolls, and Reflex saving throws, and must succeed at a concentration check (DC equal to the DC of this spell) to cast spells. However, if an affected creature spends a move action screaming as loudly as possible, it can act without any other penalties for the remainder of its turn. “Screaming,” for the purposes of this spell, includes any vocalization of pain or its telepathic equivalent; creatures that cannot scream (such as creatures without the natural ability to communicate or vocalize) suffer the full effect of the spell."
Note that it says "screaming as loudly as possible", NOT "scream loud enough to be heard"
It also says "ANY vocalization", a muted scream would still fall under that.
"verb (used without object), vocalized, vocalizing. 5. to use the voice, as in speech or song. 6. to sing without uttering words, especially to warm up the voice, practice vowel sounds, etc., before a performance.
Just because your silenced doesn't mean you're no longer using your voice. Specifically taking away your ability to speak or scream is most certainly NOT what silence does. It just silences the noise being made, that's it.
Avaron, even though I disagree with you and I have decided to step away from this discussion, I want to say that I respect how calm and understanding you are being in this disagreement. It's something I would like to see more on the rules forums and I'm glad there are people that can remain calm and respectful.
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The question, as I see it, is whether the act of trying to produce sound or the perception of that sound ends the effect. I think both sides are reasonable interpretations. In the absence of an official ruling, I say, "Expect table variation."
I have a vested interest in the answer; the OP and I are in the same Kingmaker campaign.
The way I see it, neither. It's the actual production of the sound itself.
I'm trying to understand 'production of the sound".
If I have a gong hanging from a tree branch and I hit it with a stick, a sound is produced. The vibrating metal produces the sound which is carried on sound waves to the "ears" of creatures that can hear.
If I hit the same gong with the same stick while it is in the area of a Silence spell, is a sound produced? The same vibrations are produced and the air around the gong still moves and produces sound waves.
Does the silence spell keep the gong from producing a sound (the sound waves)? Or does it keep creatures that can hear from hearing the sound waves that are produced?