Does 5th Edition need NPC classes?


4th Edition

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Does 5th Edition need NPC classes?

In particular, for henchmen? In a campaign with only 2 or 3 players, giving each PC a henchman can really round out a party. NPC classes in PF and 3.X excel in that role. They're simple to run and don't outshine the PCs.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've been perfectly happy with the NPC stat blocks in the Monster Manual. In the situation you're describing, I'd just let the players run 2 characters. Henchmen as lower level PC classes, that is.


Maybe?
I have run a game for something like a year and a half, and I have never had any problems in just making up the NPCs on the fly, changing a Bandit Leader into an Arabian-esque princeling for example took nearly no time, i just gave him some extra knowledge skills and a magical sword (as well as much better clothing and a bunch of jewels).

For a henchperson, just make a concept, then build upon a similar NPC in the Monsters Manual.

You could alternatively just make one with the custom monster builder in the DMG.

Or build a character like a PC, just don´t give them an archetype.

5e, in my humble opinion, is less about what is already in the system and more about how to twist and tweak it to make it how you want to play.

Maybe someone over at http://dnd-5e-homebrew.tumblr.com/ will put up something like that, but I haven´t seen anything yet.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

No, I don't think it does. Getting away from 3.x's "PCs and Monsters use EXACTLY the same rules" is one of the best things that 5e took from 4e.


You mean, like this?

Commoner:
A commoner gains the following class features.

Hit Points
Hit Dice
: 1d6 per commoner level
Hit Points at Each Level: 1d6 (or 4) + your Constitution modifier per commoner level

Proficiencies
Armor
: None
Weapons: One simple weapon
Tools: Herbalism kit, one set of artisan's tools, or vehicles (land)
Saving Throws: Strength, Constitution
Skills: Choose two skills from Animal Handling, Athletics, and Perception

Equipment
You start with the following equipment:
• (a) a club or (b) a simple weapon
• (a) a set of artisan's tools, (b) a herbalism kit, or (c) a mule

Class Features
Ability Score Improvement. When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Dustin Ashe, I was thinking of something more along the lines of the Warrior NPC class from 3.X/PF.

Warrior:

A warrior gains the following class features. Henchmen warriors usually use the following ability score array: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, arranged by the player controlling the henchman.

Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d8 per warrior level
Hit Points at Each Level: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per warrior level

[b[Proficiencies[/b]
Armor: light armor, medium armor, and shields.
Weapons: simple weapons and martial weapons.
Tools: none
Saving Throws: Strength, Constitution
Skills: Choose two skills from Animal Handling, Athletics, Intimidation, Perception, Survival

Equipment
You start with the following equipment:
• (a) a martial weapon or (b) a simple weapon and a shield
• (a) a suit of leather armor (b) a suit of scale mail or (c) a martial weapon

Class Features
Ability Score Improvement. When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

But maybe something a little bit more complex?

I was thinking of making a class where there was a Strong, Fast, Tough, and maybe even Smart, Dedicated, and Charming versions.

For example, I was thinking the Strong Warrior would add their proficiency bonus to melee weapon damage rolls. Fast Warriors would have an AC of 10 + their proficiency bonus + their Dexterity modifier and/or add their proficiency bonus to ranged weapon damage rolls. Tough Warriors would add the proficiency bonus to each Hit Die or maybe gain temporary hit points each round equal to their proficiency bonus.
Smart Henchmen might get a number of bonus Skills equal to their proficiency bonus. Maybe the Dedicated Henchman could have something like Expertise for some Wisdom-based skills or help with healing in some minor way. Charming Henchman might be warlock-like/lite, with 1 cantrip initially, and maybe 1 spell slot per day, with additional slots at levels 5, 11, and 17?


Yes, it does, to answer the original question. Keep it simple. Limit them to a 10 level class on the theory that anybody higher level than that should be a PC class. They're useful for world building / populating places. Simpler than PC classes, but more flexible than the NPC types from the MM. Rough out a chart for what level different NPCs should be (plus or minus a bit). For example what level should a master smith be? What level should a typical city watchman be? One of the best features from a DMs point of view, and imho, was the NPC classes. The virtue of the cookie cutter MM NPCs is simplicity, but they have the same issue 0 level NPCs had pre 3.x. You end up using PC classes when you want something that isn't a pushover or a clone. And if you keep building tougher cookie cutter NPCs you might as well have the NPC classes in place. All in my opinion of course. Ymmv.

*edit* And yes, I'm working on my own versions based on what I used in 3.x. I started messing with them when I went to convert my own setting to 5E...


3 people marked this as a favorite.

5th edition has an NPC class. It's called the d8.

The prefabricated NPCs in the Bestiary have been made on the same principle every other monster in the game have been made.

That, in short, is "give it hit dice until it has the desired hit points, choose ability scores, determine armor class (either by equipment or natural armor), give it attack forms (again equipment and/or natural), choose proficiencies, spellscasting and special abilities and finally determine the CR according to the DMG table from what you made"

I find this method vastly superior to having NPC classes. The NPC is much quicker to make than if you had to keep to building from a class and there are no restrictions to what it can do.

For example in PAthfinder when you build an NPC whether from an NPC class or a PC class, you have to choose a level, then build your characters ability scores, add the level bonuses, count the number of feats it gets, find how many skill ranks it has, spread those skill ranks, add them together with ability, racial and class bonuses, check its BAB add it together with everything to get the melee and ranged attack bonus, CMB and CMD, choose feats and add all bouses from those everywhere and then check what the save bonuses are and add those with all the modifiers and then choose appropriate gear and add the bonuses from that everywhere. Oh and let's not forget figuring out the spellcasting if there is any.

In 5e you put down your number of hit dice, give the character whatever ability scores, special abilities and gear you think it should have, and choose any number of proficiencies with equipment, skills and saves. Then you check what CR it has give it the appropriate proficiency bonus and add it together with each ability score you need to figure out its attack, skill and save bonuses.

So much easier, so much more open.


Threeshades wrote:

5th edition has an NPC class. It's called the d8.

The prefabricated NPCs in the Bestiary have been made on the same principle every other monster in the game have been made.

That, in short, is "give it hit dice until it has the desired hit points, choose ability scores, determine armor class (either by equipment or natural armor), give it attack forms (again equipment and/or natural), choose proficiencies, spellscasting and special abilities and finally determine the CR according to the DMG table from what you made"

I find this method vastly superior to having NPC classes. The NPC is much quicker to make than if you had to keep to building from a class and there are no restrictions to what it can do.

For example in PAthfinder when you build an NPC whether from an NPC class or a PC class, you have to choose a level, then build your characters ability scores, add the level bonuses, count the number of feats it gets, find how many skill ranks it has, spread those skill ranks, add them together with ability, racial and class bonuses, check its BAB add it together with everything to get the melee and ranged attack bonus, CMB and CMD, choose feats and add all bouses from those everywhere and then check what the save bonuses are and add those with all the modifiers and then choose appropriate gear and add the bonuses from that everywhere. Oh and let's not forget figuring out the spellcasting if there is any.

In 5e you put down your number of hit dice, give the character whatever ability scores, special abilities and gear you think it should have, and choose any number of proficiencies with equipment, skills and saves. Then you check what CR it has give it the appropriate proficiency bonus and add it together with each ability score you need to figure out its attack, skill and save bonuses.

So much easier, so much more open.

In short you're custom building your NPCs. That's fine in an AP. I run a sandbox and I sometimes need to produce NPCs on the fly in fairly large numbers or pre prepare a batch of NPCs to fit a role and use them as needed. An NPC class serves that goal by giving you a framework. It works for me, but ymmv. Obviously :)

I used the idea of a d8 per level for all classes btw.


No. Personally, I believe NPC classes are contrary to the spirit of 5E. The game seems to take a conscious step back from that level of simulation (and imo is better for it).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Absolutely not. Locking everybody in the universe into just a handful of classes in 3.x was one of the dumbest ideas ever.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
bugleyman wrote:


No. Personally, I believe NPC classes are contrary to the spirit of 5E. The game seems to take a conscious step back from that level of simulation (and imo is better for it).

I moved into D&D from miniature wargaming (Chainmail). For us, there was always a degree of "simulation" in the game world. NPC classes (and PC classes for that matter) were a convenient way to organize and rationalize this world.


JoeJ wrote:


Absolutely not. Locking everybody in the universe into just a handful of classes in 3.x was one of the dumbest ideas ever.

... A handful of classes? You have large hands :D

Original D&D with just 3 classes and zero level NPCs... that was a handful of classes.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I'm talking more about Henchmen classes that can be run simultaneously with a PC classed character by a player. I'm not talking about NPCs that don't level with the party or DMPCs.

For example, a gaming group has only a DM and 3 players. Say, a bard, a cleric, and a wizard. Henchmen could be a fun way to fill out the party.

In PF, we had a party of 3, and the GM gave each of us a warrior classed henchmen to control in addition to our PCs. I think our party was a half-orc inquisitor of Desna, a human fighter, and a Dark Tapestries oracle. The GM had converted an old 1st Edition module, so we needed some extra bodies to keep the PCs from being dead bodies. And it worked really well and was fun.


SmiloDan wrote:


I'm talking more about Henchmen classes that can be run simultaneously with a PC classed character by a player. I'm not talking about NPCs that don't level with the party or DMPCs.

For example, a gaming group has only a DM and 3 players. Say, a bard, a cleric, and a wizard. Henchmen could be a fun way to fill out the party.

In PF, we had a party of 3, and the GM gave each of us a warrior classed henchmen to control in addition to our PCs. I think our party was a half-orc inquisitor of Desna, a human fighter, and a Dark Tapestries oracle. The GM had converted an old 1st Edition module, so we needed some extra bodies to keep the PCs from being dead bodies. And it worked really well and was fun.

I've used both PC and NPC classes in that role in 3.x. My players have adventured with NPC friends and had henchmen and hirelings of various classes, PC and NPC. A simplified NPC type class is less of a burden to run (for DM or PC) than a PC class I'd agree. I imagine I'll continue to use both depending on the NPCs role and origin. For me the NPC classes are very useful in populating the world, but that population includes the people the PCs move through and around...


Threeshades wrote:

5th edition has an NPC class. It's called the d8.

The prefabricated NPCs in the Bestiary have been made on the same principle every other monster in the game have been made.

That, in short, is "give it hit dice until it has the desired hit points, choose ability scores, determine armor class (either by equipment or natural armor), give it attack forms (again equipment and/or natural), choose proficiencies, spellscasting and special abilities and finally determine the CR according to the DMG table from what you made"

I find this method vastly superior to having NPC classes. The NPC is much quicker to make than if you had to keep to building from a class and there are no restrictions to what it can do.

For example in PAthfinder when you build an NPC whether from an NPC class or a PC class, you have to choose a level, then build your characters ability scores, add the level bonuses, count the number of feats it gets, find how many skill ranks it has, spread those skill ranks, add them together with ability, racial and class bonuses, check its BAB add it together with everything to get the melee and ranged attack bonus, CMB and CMD, choose feats and add all bouses from those everywhere and then check what the save bonuses are and add those with all the modifiers and then choose appropriate gear and add the bonuses from that everywhere. Oh and let's not forget figuring out the spellcasting if there is any.

In 5e you put down your number of hit dice, give the character whatever ability scores, special abilities and gear you think it should have, and choose any number of proficiencies with equipment, skills and saves. Then you check what CR it has give it the appropriate proficiency bonus and add it together with each ability score you need to figure out its attack, skill and save bonuses.

So much easier, so much more open.

It probably depends on the game and circumstances. Any random NPC who the characters don't interact with much can just be decided in an arbitrary fashion, but for more important ones the GM might (game and group dependent, of course) might require a little more fleshing out. Luckily the system seems quick enough that a hastily thrown together class or two can easily fill most gaps that a GM decides need filling.


R_Chance wrote:
Threeshades wrote:

5th edition has an NPC class. It's called the d8.

The prefabricated NPCs in the Bestiary have been made on the same principle every other monster in the game have been made.

That, in short, is "give it hit dice until it has the desired hit points, choose ability scores, determine armor class (either by equipment or natural armor), give it attack forms (again equipment and/or natural), choose proficiencies, spellscasting and special abilities and finally determine the CR according to the DMG table from what you made"

I find this method vastly superior to having NPC classes. The NPC is much quicker to make than if you had to keep to building from a class and there are no restrictions to what it can do.

For example in PAthfinder when you build an NPC whether from an NPC class or a PC class, you have to choose a level, then build your characters ability scores, add the level bonuses, count the number of feats it gets, find how many skill ranks it has, spread those skill ranks, add them together with ability, racial and class bonuses, check its BAB add it together with everything to get the melee and ranged attack bonus, CMB and CMD, choose feats and add all bouses from those everywhere and then check what the save bonuses are and add those with all the modifiers and then choose appropriate gear and add the bonuses from that everywhere. Oh and let's not forget figuring out the spellcasting if there is any.

In 5e you put down your number of hit dice, give the character whatever ability scores, special abilities and gear you think it should have, and choose any number of proficiencies with equipment, skills and saves. Then you check what CR it has give it the appropriate proficiency bonus and add it together with each ability score you need to figure out its attack, skill and save bonuses.

So much easier, so much more open.

In short you're custom building your NPCs. That's fine in an AP. I run a sandbox and I sometimes need to produce NPCs on the fly in fairly large...

If that is what works for you go ahead, but personally on I find on the fly creation of NPCs goes A LOT faster without using classes.

Grey Lensman wrote:
It probably depends on the game and circumstances. Any random NPC who the characters don't interact with much can just be decided in an...

I find the system works for both quickly thrown together NPCs and major recurring ones and it's great because it makes them unpredictable for players and feel unique.

Players can't simply identify an enemy spellcaster as a wizard or sorcerer and extrapolate from there. The character may cast like one of these but has a whole suit of completely different abilities.

And having homebrewed and converted a whole host of monsters with the 5e system already I can say with confidence it is a lot faster than sticking to a class system.


SmiloDan wrote:

I'm talking more about Henchmen classes that can be run simultaneously with a PC classed character by a player. I'm not talking about NPCs that don't level with the party or DMPCs.

For example, a gaming group has only a DM and 3 players. Say, a bard, a cleric, and a wizard. Henchmen could be a fun way to fill out the party.

In PF, we had a party of 3, and the GM gave each of us a warrior classed henchmen to control in addition to our PCs. I think our party was a half-orc inquisitor of Desna, a human fighter, and a Dark Tapestries oracle. The GM had converted an old 1st Edition module, so we needed some extra bodies to keep the PCs from being dead bodies. And it worked really well and was fun.

Not to belabor the point, but why not just give each player a lower level PC-classes henchmen to play along with their main?

I might just be yammering on about this because I'm participating in the Dungeonesque Kickstarter playtest, which includes rules for 0-level characters for a DCC style funnel game, so I'm at the moment I'm a fan of playing multiple characters.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The main reason I don't like 0th-level or lower level companions is survivability. Lower level characters can actually be a drain if they're constantly needing healing after every battle. If the henchmen have hit points on par with the PCs, this stops being an issue.

Especially with the spending Hit Dice mechanic when short resting. If the henchmen have significantly less Hit Dice than the main PCs, they can't self-heal as much.

What's a DCC style funnel game?


SmiloDan wrote:

The main reason I don't like 0th-level or lower level companions is survivability. Lower level characters can actually be a drain if they're constantly needing healing after every battle. If the henchmen have hit points on par with the PCs, this stops being an issue.

Especially with the spending Hit Dice mechanic when short resting. If the henchmen have significantly less Hit Dice than the main PCs, they can't self-heal as much.

What's a DCC style funnel game?

Dungeon Crawl Classics is an OSR system where each player starts with multiple 0-level characters and which ever character survives the first adventure (the funnel) continues to advance from level one as with regular OSR advancement. It's fantasy RPG Viet Nam as a feature, not a bug; I've only played it a couple of times, but ended up more emotionally attached to a completely randomly generated PC than I am to most of the ones I design for a specific character concept.

Honestly, if you're a fan of adventure path style, plot driven campaigns, you'll probably hate it. :)

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I think the Thug (CR 1/2) in the Monster Manual makes a fine hireling. You may even want to nerf him at early levels, since he's got multiattack and easy advantage.


Threeshades wrote:

5th edition has an NPC class. It's called the d8.

The prefabricated NPCs in the Bestiary have been made on the same principle every other monster in the game have been made.

That, in short, is "give it hit dice until it has the desired hit points, choose ability scores, determine armor class (either by equipment or natural armor), give it attack forms (again equipment and/or natural), choose proficiencies, spellscasting and special abilities and finally determine the CR according to the DMG table from what you made"

I find this method vastly superior to having NPC classes. The NPC is much quicker to make than if you had to keep to building from a class and there are no restrictions to what it can do.

You can also build the world's greatest cobbler without having him by necessity be able to smash through most nation's armies.


My theory is that unless you're going to be engaging them in combat, providing a full stat block for every NPC is pointless and hideous waste of time.

If give them a name, a purpose, and then let them do things that enable that purpose.

Hell, even if your characters ARE psychotic commoner-hacking murderous bastards, just have them die after they've taken what you guestimate to be an appropriate amount of damage.

Sovereign Court

If you really want a cohort, I would honestly make someone just as you would a normal PC, and just keep them at the appropriate level. If you really need something that is less capable/intricate than a normal PC, I would omit any archetype.

Community / Forums / Gamer Life / Gaming / D&D / 4th Edition / Does 5th Edition need NPC classes? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in 4th Edition