Any way to NOT "Hulk-smash" your allies?


Rules Questions

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Liberty's Edge

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Lemmy wrote:
I don't know if this is Paizo's worst archetype... But it's a serious contender for the position.

Agreed very close. I'm also not too thrilled with the Grey Paladin either. For what you get and what you lose from the standard Paladin. If the devs don't want players using any other alignment for a Paladin that LG. Don't offer something that is really not worth taking.

Then some fans wonder why some of us are so hard on the devs. At this point there no real good reason to get such archtypes. They had a playtest. Even with that the devs have the final say. Yet they still keep refusing to find the proper middle ground when it comes to new material. Either a option is too good or not worth taking. This far into the development cycle pf Pathfinder they know better. They simpl don't care. I'm glad I bought the book. Out of a score of ten I'm docking two points for poor archtype design.


Squiggit wrote:
Rysky wrote:


There's Weapon Bearer Squire for Fighters.
Grooms for Rangers.
Herald Squire's for Cavaliers.

Well I know the squires are in a separate section of Knights of the Inner sea all about squires (and a feat to give you a squire cohort). I'm going to check other options now though.

Quote:
3) I don't really see how dealing damage as a large sized monk is all that weak.

Well, the archetype does good damage, especially later on. I don't think that's the big issue with it.

Personally my biggest issue mechanically with the archetype is how squishy it is. It's a frontline combatant on a d8 with a -2 penalty to AC who can't wear armor until at least level 4. Even a dex based brute is going to be stuck with a maximum of 13 AC and maybe 10 HP at level, realistically probably lower than that.

Also not a fan of how binary the transformation is, but a lot of that is roleplaying.

That you can't use your brute BAB for feats, lose a good save (IMHO they should really have good fort and good will), can suffer from a very long lasting fatigue, that the will save is very hard to keep up with and that you lose a lot of vigilante combat options since you can't take avenger talents all hurt too.

But I don't think damage is the issue, nor do I think the archetype needs to be overpowered, but there's a lot of room for improvement I think and again, the survivability is a major factor.

Well, you could if you are about to go into a dungeon: change, then put on large leather armor you stored in your backpack (only cost 50 gp, 25 x2 for large), and enjoy have net 0 AC penalty (-2 Brute +2 armor). Unlike the talent: it has no AC penalty because not magical.

Remember, you only go berserk after all foes are dead: so it only activates during combat by RAW.

I wobder if Brute should have been an Alternate class of the Vigilante instead of a separate Archetype: A stalker or Avenger Brute would be more viable.

Still sucks due to other issues, but has more talents that it needs.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Starbuck_II wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Rysky wrote:


There's Weapon Bearer Squire for Fighters.
Grooms for Rangers.
Herald Squire's for Cavaliers.

Well I know the squires are in a separate section of Knights of the Inner sea all about squires (and a feat to give you a squire cohort). I'm going to check other options now though.

Quote:
3) I don't really see how dealing damage as a large sized monk is all that weak.

Well, the archetype does good damage, especially later on. I don't think that's the big issue with it.

Personally my biggest issue mechanically with the archetype is how squishy it is. It's a frontline combatant on a d8 with a -2 penalty to AC who can't wear armor until at least level 4. Even a dex based brute is going to be stuck with a maximum of 13 AC and maybe 10 HP at level, realistically probably lower than that.

Also not a fan of how binary the transformation is, but a lot of that is roleplaying.

That you can't use your brute BAB for feats, lose a good save (IMHO they should really have good fort and good will), can suffer from a very long lasting fatigue, that the will save is very hard to keep up with and that you lose a lot of vigilante combat options since you can't take avenger talents all hurt too.

But I don't think damage is the issue, nor do I think the archetype needs to be overpowered, but there's a lot of room for improvement I think and again, the survivability is a major factor.

Well, you could if you are about to go into a dungeon: change, then put on large leather armor you stored in your backpack (only cost 50 gp, 25 x2 for large), and enjoy have net 0 AC penalty (-2 Brute +2 armor). Unlike the talent: it has no AC penalty because not magical.

Remember, you only go berserk after all foes are dead: so it only activates during combat by RAW.

I wobder if Brute should have been an Alternate class of the Vigilante instead of a separate Archetype: A stalker or Avenger Brute would be more viable.

Still sucks due to other issues, but has more talents that it needs.

Actually the -2 is constant while they're in their Viglante identity, not just when they're no more enemies around.

"When a Brute is in mortal peril, such as when combat starts, he must succeed at a Will Save or enter his Vigilante identity."

It's questionable if they can even willingly choose to transform.


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Vigilante wrote:
Game Masters should consider carefully whether or not a vigilante will make for a good fit with their campaign. The class is one that requires a degree of social aptitude and roleplaying to make full use of its potential. Campaigns that focus more on wilderness exploration, travel, or dungeon delving and that are lighter on politics, negotiation, and manipulation might require a vigilante player to put in additional effort to make full use of his class features. Alternatively, a vigilante is uniquely suited to make for a powerful villain, hidden by day behind a mask of civility and a terror at night, free to commit terrible acts without risking discovery.

I don't know about you guys but considering this is on the parent class I think Paizo's (poorly) hinting that this class is better used for NPCs without outright stating it, so by proxy there is a hint for the archetype to be used by NPCs.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Starbuck_II wrote:


Well, you could if you are about to go into a dungeon: change, then put on large leather armor you stored in your backpack (only cost 50 gp, 25 x2 for large), and enjoy have net 0 AC penalty (-2 Brute +2 armor). Unlike the talent: it has no AC penalty because not magical.

A Large Brute actually has a total AC penalty of -3; the archetype specifically notes that you get know ability score adjustments from the size increase but apply all other modifiers as normal. You have the -2 penalty for being in vigilante form, and a stacking -1 size penalty to AC, so even a set of large sized leather armor only gets you to a net -1 AC.

Quote:


Remember, you only go berserk after all foes are dead: so it only activates during combat by RAW.
I wobder if Brute should have been an Alternate class of the Vigilante instead of a separate Archetype: A stalker or Avenger Brute would be more viable.
Still sucks due to other issues, but has more talents that it needs.

Having count as a variant of the Avenger definitely wouldn't have hurt.


JiCi wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Seeing as how you have to make a save to avoid transforming when a fight breaks out, and the only other time it specifically says you're allowed one is when there are no more enemies around, I would say no.

Hmmm... it only states "when he is in mortal peril" or "when threatened in his vigilante identity"... TBH, when you're outnumbering one enemy 4-to-1, you're... not really threatened :P

I don't see anywhere that the Brute cannot end voluntarily his transformation...

Again, the problem is that there is no sign that HE CAN. in Pathfinder the burden is not in proving the negative, but the positive.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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You're not even getting true enlarge person, which I think factors into that assessment (or should). You're getting a stat-less size increase with an extra -2 AC penalty thrown on top, and a Will-based restriction that limits the usefulness of your dual identities (not to mention trading two good saves for one); while you do get reach, it's hard not to view the transformation as a net zero modification.

Ssalarn wrote:
the archetype specifically notes that you get no ability score adjustments from the size increase

Noticed the typo in my previous post too late to correct it.


Ssalarn wrote:

You're not even getting true enlarge person, which I think factors into that assessment (or should). You're getting a stat-less size increase with an extra -2 AC penalty thrown on top, and a Will-based restriction that limits the usefulness of your dual identities (not to mention trading two good saves for one); while you do get reach, it's hard not to view the transformation as a net zero modification.

Ssalarn wrote:
the archetype specifically notes that you get no ability score adjustments from the size increase
Noticed the typo in my previous post too late to correct it.

Don't forget it removes all martial weapons, medium armor, Good Reflex, (you could see the trade Good Fort for Good Will being even though), etc.

Heck, you can't even wear armor easily. Unlike Monk you don't get non-armor bonuses to armor class.

Which is why NA bonus makes sense.

Hmm, maybe one should multiclass into a Synthegist?

They get a NA or armor bonus to AC. They also can't wear normal armor.

It ruins the non-magical aspect of the theme, but it helps.

This works best for small types as then you'll be equal or smaller than Eidolon. But later when you can get a large eidolon, this will work with Med.

You also get better BAB (when fused you get its BAB), saves, and temp hp.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
JiCi wrote:


I don't see anywhere that the Brute cannot end voluntarily his transformation...

Again, the problem is that there is no sign that HE CAN. in Pathfinder the burden is not in proving the negative, but the positive.

I think his argument would be the rules do say he can, as Vigilante Dual Identity allows a Vigilante to switch between Social and Vigilante identities with no limitation.

Nothing in Brute replaces Dual Identity, it only alters it in requiring a Chaotic Vigilante alignment and only one step difference between Social and Vigilante alignments. Brute Form replaces Vigilante Specialization, and does not directly alter anything in Dual Identity.

So the rules in Dual Identity for changing from Vigilante back to Social identities aren't changed, since nothing in Brute has changed them.

HOWEVER, I think the line in Brute form "Furthermore, the brute cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skill (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration (such as spellcasting)," could EASILY be considered to disallow changing back to Social identity as a task that requires "patience or concentration."

Community & Digital Content Director

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Removed a series of back and forth posts. Folks, please stick to assisting with the original posters' question, and leave the grar out of the conversation. Dismissive comments, personal insults, and baiting others is really counter-productive.


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Samasboy1 wrote:
HOWEVER, I think the line in Brute form "Furthermore, the brute cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skill (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration (such as spellcasting)," could EASILY be considered to disallow changing back to Social identity as a task that requires "patience or concentration."

Well, shoot...

Point taken...

Okay... so he can't turn back to normal on his own.


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Weirdly enough, a Brute is also less scary in his vigilante form than he is in his social form because he takes a -2 to all Charisma skill checks in vigilante form. This includes Intimidate.


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Is there a single character in fiction the archetype can represent?


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Milo v3 wrote:
Is there a single character in fiction the archetype can represent?

The Sulk?

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Ventnor wrote:
Weirdly enough, a Brute is also less scary in his vigilante form than he is in his social form because he takes a -2 to all Charisma skill checks in vigilante form. This includes Intimidate.

It'll be a net gain of +2 against humanoid opponents in most instances since you get a +4 bonus to Intimidate checks if you are larger than your target. So, technically not less scary, but not as much more scary as you might expect.


Ssalarn wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Weirdly enough, a Brute is also less scary in his vigilante form than he is in his social form because he takes a -2 to all Charisma skill checks in vigilante form. This includes Intimidate.
It'll be a net gain of +2 against humanoid opponents in most instances since you get a +4 bonus to Intimidate checks if you are larger than your target. So, technically not less scary, but not as much more scary as you might expect.

That's technically for another debate, because the Brute, as well as the other Vigilante archetypes, could all use more unique talents. For the Brute only:

- A talent to gain size adjustments for physical stats.
- A talent to gain rage powers.
- A talent to wield oversized weapons.
- A [high-level] talent to lower the Will save DC/to give a bonus to it.

Anyway, there are ways to increase the Brute's Will save bonus, I've listed a few of them a while back. Then there's the Calm Emotions spell, which I have no clue how it would affect a Brute. Finally, and that's a new point, is the confusion-like effect at the end of an encounter a mind-affecting effect?

Yes, you cannot transform into a Brute if you are somehow immune to fatigue, but what about mind-affecting effects? The drawback is strikingly similar to a confusion effect, so... do resistances and immunities affect a Brute? If so, how?

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