Two fighters: Combat Maneuver shenanegans

[dwayne germaine]

So I'm playing in an Adventure path with a fighter who has improved trip, and another player has a sword and board style fighter in the group. We are looking at working together to do some combos and I just wanted to check if this is going to come together the way I hope it will.

We both have combat reflexes, and will both be taking the greater versions of our combat maneuver at 6-7th level. At 8th we will take paired opportunists. The sword/board fighter might take vicious stomp right away (we are about to hit 4th)

If (once I have greater trip) I trip someone next to the sword/board fighter that will provoke attacks of opportunity from both of us (from greater trip) and will provoke a vicious stomp AoO from the sword/board fighter. With Paired opportunist, will our AoOs from greater trip give one another and additional AoO each? And further will his Vicious stomp allow me to take another AoO?

What happens when he starts to use Shield Slam and gets free bull rushes with every shield hit? If he has Greater Bull Rush and does a shield bash attack that free bull rush should provoke (and since it provokes from me should give him another AoO from Paired Opportunists). If I use my AoO to trip the foe, that is going to provoke attacks from my buddy, both regular and Vicious stomp, plus one from me... possibly another from each of us from paired opportunists... possibly another from me on his vicious stomp.

Is this all Legit? I think it is, but it sort of goes beyond what I've seen happen in any game so far. If so are there other ways to get more attacks of opportunity per round other than us just getting Dex belts because we are gong to run out of AoOs fast.

I'm just trying to get my head around what this will allow us to do and the best way to capitalize on it without investing too much on one trick.

[Chess Pwn]

Paired opportunist would give you one for his vicious stomp, but since you already took an AoO on the trip you wouldn't get a second one on the trip cause your buddy did one too.

Yup, just got to make the checks against creatures that qualify to use the maneuvers on.

[dwayne germaine]

Yeah, that makes sense since otherwise Paired Opportunist would set off never-ending chains of AoOs.

We are also looking at Improved Critical and Seize the Moment(teamwork) to continue the AoO fun against things that can't be tripped or bull rushed

[dwayne germaine]

Just to make sure I understand this correctly though.

I trip the opponent. Greater Trip makes it so that we both get attacks of opportunity from that. My fighter friend gets a Vicious Stomp as well, and that also gives me a second attack of opportunity from Paired Opportunists.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Yeah, teamwork feats are pretty awesome if you actually have two players that work together.

Now that said, understand that there are many opponents which can't be tripped at all (no legs or too many legs, flying creatures), and recall that only creatures at most one size larger than you can be tripped. So GM whips out a huge creature and all your trip feats will fail. There are also a few builds where the creatures fight while prone.

There are a few archetypes that allow bigger creatures to be tripped, but doesn't sound like you are going that route.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Yeah, teamwork feats are pretty awesome if you actually have two players that work together.

Now that said, understand that there are many opponents which can't be tripped at all (no legs or too many legs, flying creatures), and recall that only creatures at most one size larger than you can be tripped. So GM whips out a huge creature and all your trip feats will fail. There are also a few builds where the creatures fight while prone.

There are a few archetypes that allow bigger creatures to be tripped, but doesn't sound like you are going that route.

Well, there is another Teamwork Feat for just such an occasion: the Harder they Fall. If 1 member of the Team Aids Another, the other may Trip or Bull Rush with no worry about the size limit.

And there are other Attack of Opportunity triggers.

[dwayne germaine]

Yeah, we are aware that there are some enemies that can't be tripped. Greater Bull Rush on the sword/board fighter will help mitigate that somewhat, potions/casting of enlarge person will help more, and ways to get more AoOs from other things will also be on our radar.

If things work like we hope, then our casters will be able to focus more on dealing with problems that the two fighters don't handle well.

Scott: What book is The Harder They Fall in? I'm not finding it when I search the PRD so I have a sneaking suspicion that it's in a splatbook that our GM hasn't authorized, but I would like to look at it.

Any other AoO trigger feat suggestions are appreciated, but we are stuck with using just the core rulebook, Ultimate Players, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat. As I mentioned upthread, we are already aware of and likely will take Seize the Moment at higher levels.

[Scott Wilhelm]

dwayne germaine wrote:

Scott: What book is The Harder They Fall in? I'm not finding it when I search the PRD so I have a sneaking suspicion that it's in a splatbook that our GM hasn't authorized, but I would like to look at it.

I found it here

The website says it comes from the Pathfinder Player Companion: Giant Hunter's Handbook . That seems pretty splat-booky.

dwayne germaine wrote:

Any other AoO trigger feat suggestions are appreciated, but we are stuck with using just the core rulebook, Ultimate Players, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat.

Well, how about Bodyguard? That's in the Advanced Player's Guide. If you have Bodyguard, you get an Attack of Opportunity whenever someone attacks your Ally. That AoO has to be Aid Another to improve the ally's AC, but if you and your Ally have Paired Opportunist like you are planning, your Ally gets an AoO, too, and his AoO doesn't have to be Aid Another. I was thinking it would be cool to have be an Eldritch Guardian/Alchemist with a Protector Familiar who gets Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes, and Shield Other, then I take Paired Opportunist, so then I get an AoO whenever I'm attacked. Sadly, I don't think that's within your GM's rules universe.

You can get the Shield Other effect though: when I do get hit, I only take 1/2 damage, splitting the damage with the Tumor Familiar, and the Tumor Familiar's Damage gets offset by its Fast Healing 5. With the books you are limited to, this latter effect can still be achieved with a Potion of Shield Other and the Alchemal Allocation Level 2 Extract. You use the Familiar Share Spells ability to make it the one that uses the extract and the Potion.

There is Broken Wing Gambit found in Ultimate Combat. When you hit someone, you them offer a +2 to attack and damage, but if your opponent tries to use the bonus, all your allies get Attacks of Opportunity. There is an FAQ that states that you count as your own ally, but since your GM is limiting the field in rulebooks, he may also refuse to recognize FAQs.

There is Snake Fang, which lets you get an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity whenever someone attacks you and misses. There was a recent errata nerfing the Feat by nerfing Monk Master of Many Styles. Masters of Many Styles used to be able to take any Feat on a Style Feat Tree without having to meet any prerequisite except for taking the first Feat on the Tree, for which they also did not have to meet the prerequisites. That means you used to be able to gain Snake Fang with only 2 levels in Monk. Now you need to be a 9th level character (9 ranks in Sense Motive). But if your GM is limiting the field of allowed rulebooks, it is entirely possible that he is using old editions of the rulebook, putting Level 2 MOMs Monk with Snake Fang back on the menu.

You should look into acquiring a Crown of Swords, found in the Advance Race Guide (drat!) which summons a Spiritual Sword to attack whomever hits you. That way, whenever anyone attacks you, they trigger a round of AoOs due to Bodyguard, offsetting your offered +2 due to BWG, which triggers another Round of AoOs; if they miss, that Triggers another round of AoOs from Snake Fang, and if they hit, they get attacked by your Crown of Swords! And as you know, there is no reason why your AoOs can't be Shield Slams that trigger even more AoOs due to Greater Bull Rush and Paired Opportunist! Get yourselves some Belts of Dexterity, and do take levels in Alchemist to take that Dex Mutagen so you will be keeping the party going a long, long time!

The Advanced Players' Guide has a Feat called Punishing Kick which works like Stunning Fist except instead of making your opponents Stunned, you make them Prone. This is not as good as Tripping them, because it won't trigger Greater Trip, but it will still Trigger Vicious Stomp and attempts to get up from Prone, and unlike Tripping, Punishing Kick has no size limit.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Yeah, teamwork feats are pretty awesome if you actually have two players that work together.

Now that said, understand that there are many opponents which can't be tripped at all (no legs or too many legs, flying creatures), and recall that only creatures at most one size larger than you can be tripped. So GM whips out a huge creature and all your trip feats will fail. There are also a few builds where the creatures fight while prone.

There are a few archetypes that allow bigger creatures to be tripped, but doesn't sound like you are going that route.

Well, there is another Teamwork Feat for just such an occasion: the Harder they Fall. If 1 member of the Team Aids Another, the other may Trip or Bull Rush with no worry about the size limit.

And there are other Attack of Opportunity triggers.

Completely true. Though the more specialized you are in a particular way of fighting, the harder it is to fight battles incompatible to your specialization.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Yeah, teamwork feats are pretty awesome if you actually have two players that work together.

Now that said, understand that there are many opponents which can't be tripped at all (no legs or too many legs, flying creatures), and recall that only creatures at most one size larger than you can be tripped. So GM whips out a huge creature and all your trip feats will fail. There are also a few builds where the creatures fight while prone.

There are a few archetypes that allow bigger creatures to be tripped, but doesn't sound like you are going that route.

Well, there is another Teamwork Feat for just such an occasion: the Harder they Fall. If 1 member of the Team Aids Another, the other may Trip or Bull Rush with no worry about the size limit.

And there are other Attack of Opportunity triggers.

Completely true. Though the more specialized you are in a particular way of fighting, the harder it is to fight battles incompatible to your specialization.

Fair to say: most aggressively built characters have aggressive weaknesses to go with their aggressive strengths. It's really fun to piece together some really wicked effects to produce devastating results, but the way in which I have usually been the most helpful to the party is when I was at my most versatile, being the one who packed Blunt, Slashing, and Piercing weapons, the one who had ropes and pitons, the one who could function while Blinded, stuff like that.

[lemeres]

These kinds of builds are the exact reason why eldritch guardian is awesome. It can full this off with one player. So of course you will have a better time when you have two coordinated characters.

I tend to like dirty tricks myself. Always find something applicable, and at higher levels it can take a target down in one round when you tag team them.

[Scott Wilhelm]

lemeres wrote:

These kinds of builds are the exact reason why eldritch guardian is awesome. It can full this off with one player. So of course you will have a better time when you have two coordinated characters.

I'm also interested in the Beast-Bonded Witch.

lemeres wrote:

I tend to like dirty tricks myself. Always find something applicable, and at higher levels it can take a target down in one round when you tag team them.

I really like the idea of marrying Dirty Tricks with Sneak Attack Damage, say getting a character with multiple natural attacks; use the first attack and Quick Dirty Trick to make your opponent Blind, then enjoy Sneak Attack Damage on all the rest.

I didn't mention a build like that on this thread though because the OP's focus is on Teamwork Feats.

[fretgod99]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I really like the idea of marrying Dirty Tricks with Sneak Attack Damage, say getting a character with multiple natural attacks; use the first attack and Quick Dirty Trick to make your opponent Blind, then enjoy Sneak Attack Damage on all the rest.

I didn't mention a build like that on this thread though because the OP's focus is on Teamwork Feats.

Check out the Skulking Slayer if you haven't. It seems like something one could have some fun with. I've plotted a few builds with it, but haven't ever been able to play one.

[dwayne germaine]

Thanks for the ideas. Broken Wing Gambit was one I had my eye on too, so it might get worked into the characters as they level up.

We play using a generally more restrictive reading of most rules than a lot of people on the forums. In this case that means Bodyguard won't trigger AoOs from other people with Paired Opportunist in our games, but otherwise that would have been a great trick. Same thing with Snake Fang, although it might still be a good feat for the sword/board fighter since he has unarmed strike.