So what is this new warlock?


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I've been seeing some posts about it. Is this an archetype for the vigilante class? What does it do?


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Yep! Spells like a Magus using the Wizard list. It gets Vigilante talents at 2, 6, 12, 18, and 20 with some extra options. Instead of picking Stalker or Avenger, it gets a weak at-will blast to use in place of a regular attack.


That sounds pretty freaking flavorful


Whoops, that's 2, 8, 14, 18, and 20 I think.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

You were right the first time.


KingOfAnything wrote:
You were right the first time.

Okay, good. That's a lot more workable.


Does he get abilities that modify the shape or create secondary abilities for his blast like the 3.5 warlock?

Scarab Sages

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He doesn't get a blast like the 3.5 warlock. The blast he gets doesn't increase in dice, but the warlock can use it in a full attack or two-hand fight with it.

For a class that is more like the 3.5 warlock, see the Kineticist.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

This is like a hybrid between the Soul Knife and the Warlock from 3.5.

The best thing is that the Warlock threatens with the Mystic Bolts just by having a free hand.


Is there a link for further reading? Or is it in a playtest or something?


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It'll be posted when the prd is updated with the Ultimate Intrigue stuff.

Liberty's Edge

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I've planned one through to Level 20, and I'm going to test it out tonight at my local Game Day (Starting at Level 1). They are super tough to build for; They don't have much in ways of stacking bonuses to damage until Level 12(!). The few that are available at early to mid level add up to totals of like, 1d6+4 by Level 5. Resistible too.

With a single rules clarification (no Strength bonus to damage and no Lethal Grace) their potential really took a nose-dive. I mean no offense by it of course. I still love them.


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It mandates arcane strike as a feat, if not the talent. The talent let's you add more damage by giving you a list of weapon abilities.

With arcane strike and the scaling damage added, you do 1d6 plus about half level. These function as touch attacks after level5, and you can take rapid shot and two weapon fighting allowing you to shoot three mystic bolts at 1d6+3 each, for 3d6+9 total.

It requires the right build, but you end up doing okay damage.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I wonder if someone has a build with Rogue levels in it?


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
thaX wrote:
I wonder if someone has a build with Rogue levels in it?

Just add three levels of unchained rogue with Finesse Training (Mystic Bolts) to a high Dex warlock vigilante... What other details are needed?

Liberty's Edge

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master_marshmallow wrote:

It mandates arcane strike as a feat, if not the talent. The talent let's you add more damage by giving you a list of weapon abilities.

With arcane strike and the scaling damage added, you do 1d6 plus about half level. These function as touch attacks after level5, and you can take rapid shot and two weapon fighting allowing you to shoot three mystic bolts at 1d6+3 each, for 3d6+9 total.

It requires the right build, but you end up doing okay damage.

Hello master_marshmallow. I love your username. Those things are what I was referring to in my post; my apologies, I should have been more specific. Multiple, tiny shots can run into problems with Resistances though. A large number of creatures have at least 10 Resist to every element.

It's not all hopeless; just take Acid and use Deliquescent Gloves. By the time it's relevant, 2d6+6 (for example) has a good chance of punching through Resist 10. Like you said, the massive number of attacks will then add up. Getting at least 1 point past Resist is just the important part. On the bright side, anything without energy resist will turn to goo.

Dragonchess Player wrote:
Just add three levels of unchained rogue with Finesse Training (Mystic Bolts) to a high Dex warlock vigilante... What other details are needed?

Unfortunately, Mystic Bolt never adds Strength in the first place. Thus, Dexterity cannot be substituted for the non-existent Strength Bonus.


Simon Dragonar wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

It mandates arcane strike as a feat, if not the talent. The talent let's you add more damage by giving you a list of weapon abilities.

With arcane strike and the scaling damage added, you do 1d6 plus about half level. These function as touch attacks after level5, and you can take rapid shot and two weapon fighting allowing you to shoot three mystic bolts at 1d6+3 each, for 3d6+9 total.

It requires the right build, but you end up doing okay damage.

Hello master_marshmallow. I love your username. Those things are what I was referring to in my post; my apologies, I should have been more specific. Multiple, tiny shots can run into problems with Resistances though. A large number of creatures have at least 10 Resist to every element.

It's not all hopeless; just take Acid and use Deliquescent Gloves. By the time it's relevant, 2d6+6 (for example) has a good chance of punching through Resist 10. Like you said, the massive number of attacks will then add up. Getting at least 1 point past Resist is just the important part. On the bright side, anything without energy resist will turn to goo.

Dragonchess Player wrote:
Just add three levels of unchained rogue with Finesse Training (Mystic Bolts) to a high Dex warlock vigilante... What other details are needed?
Unfortunately, Mystic Bolt never adds Strength in the first place. Thus, Dexterity cannot be substituted for the non-existent Strength Bonus.

I really was hoping for a clustered rays feat that let you total up energy damage before you apply Energy Resistance.

You're right though, at later levels when energy resistance matters we won't get much from the warlock.

Scarab Sages

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master_marshmallow wrote:


You're right though, at later levels when energy resistance matters we won't get much from the warlock.

As they level warlock get additional energy types for free. They are limited to the standard four, but I can't think of anything non-epic that is immune to all of them. You just need to change types on the fly, and invest in knowledge skills to know what energy type will work.

Silver Crusade

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You seem to forget Imbicatus, a simple Demon (which those who pointed out this issue in that playtest) Will neuter any Warlock ever. Not to mention Deliquescent gloves wont work because that is a separate and additional energy, which is applied to resistance just the same.

Scarab Sages

QuidEst wrote:
Yep! Spells like a Magus using the Wizard list. It gets Vigilante talents at 2, 6, 12, 18, and 20 with some extra options. Instead of picking Stalker or Avenger, it gets a weak at-will blast to use in place of a regular attack.

Seriously? They brought The Warlock back?

Having unlimited magic energy ranged damage at will simply breaks low level play. It's neither balanced nor fun and I certainly never enjoy having people trying to force it into my games :(.

Liberty's Edge

Did I miss the part where a Warlock couldn't have a backup weapon-based option for Demons and others immune to their trick?

If attacking at range (as I'd imagine most would), they can just buy a bow, and go to town as an archer on such foes. They won't be optimal, but they should be able to afford a masterwork (or eventually +1) bow, and cold iron arrows are really cheap...and silvered blunted arrows aren't super expensive either. You can buy a couple of Oils of Bless Weapon and/or scrolls of Align Weapon, too, if you like.

That plus Rapid and Precise Shot (which they have), and Arcane Strike and, well, they're not as good as they are vs. things without all 4 Resistances, but they're not bad and it costs very little all things considered.


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Balgin wrote:


Having unlimited magic energy ranged damage at will simply breaks low level play. It's neither balanced nor fun and I certainly never enjoy having people trying to force it into my games :(.

So, you don't allow for sor/wiz cantrips in low-level play?


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Balgin wrote:


Having unlimited magic energy ranged damage at will simply breaks low level play. It's neither balanced nor fun and I certainly never enjoy having people trying to force it into my games :(.

There is absolutely no way 1d6 acid damage a round from 30 feet is going to break anything. I mean, a wizard with a crossbow is going to do more damage.

Silver Crusade

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Did I miss the part where a Warlock couldn't have a backup weapon-based option for Demons and others immune to their trick?

If attacking at range (as I'd imagine most would), they can just buy a bow, and go to town as an archer on such foes. They won't be optimal, but they should be able to afford a masterwork (or eventually +1) bow, and cold iron arrows are really cheap...and silvered blunted arrows aren't super expensive either. You can buy a couple of Oils of Bless Weapon and/or scrolls of Align Weapon, too, if you like.

That plus Rapid and Precise Shot (which they have), and Arcane Strike and, well, they're not as good as they are vs. things without all 4 Resistances, but they're not bad and it costs very little all things considered.

You are talking to someone who heavily playtested that particular variation of Vigilante. ultimately they went with the " Just give them the spells and half the talents" Idea, so unfortunately you cannot use much of the class choices. If you want to make a good Mystic Bolt user it shouldnt require you do as I did and have conductive weapon and use it as a rider (Double Barreled Pistol and Shortsword respectively) Nor should it just be fine to take 4 level of Warlock and 16 levels of anything else, like Fighter.


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Balgin wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Yep! Spells like a Magus using the Wizard list. It gets Vigilante talents at 2, 6, 12, 18, and 20 with some extra options. Instead of picking Stalker or Avenger, it gets a weak at-will blast to use in place of a regular attack.

Seriously? They brought The Warlock back?

Having unlimited magic energy ranged damage at will simply breaks low level play. It's neither balanced nor fun and I certainly never enjoy having people trying to force it into my games :(.

...Have you seen the Kineticist?

Really, "unlimited magic energy ranged damage at will" doesn't "break the game" any more than a Rapid Shot-ing, Manyshot-ing archer, who gets 20 shots for a gold.
Besides, from what I've read here, the Warlock bolt thing doesn't get higher than 1d6, so it's not even as "bad" as the Kineticist (which, I'll say, is a fantastic class with its own issues).


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Warlock is 1d6, +1 at 4 and every 4 levels thereafter. Ranged or melee, light, TWF capable.

Downside is that they can't benefit from weapon enhancing effects and can't be enchanted so they never get weapon properties or an enhancement bonus to attack or damage.

There's a talent that lets you apply elemental damage enhancements(except corrosive), but it runs off arcane strike so no swift action and you don't get access to those properties until 12. At sixteen it adds flaming/shocking/frost burst and the alignment properties to that list too, but you can't give them anything beyond those.

No stat to damage either.

There are a lot of checks on mystic bolt's power.

Scarab Sages

Endoralis wrote:
You seem to forget Imbicatus, a simple Demon (which those who pointed out this issue in that playtest) Will neuter any Warlock ever. Not to mention Deliquescent gloves wont work because that is a separate and additional energy, which is applied to resistance just the same.

Lets assume a 17th level Warlock facing a CR17 Marilith. Assuming you took the arcane striker talent, point blank shot, and martial focus (mystic bolts), that's 1d6+10 +2d6 holy per bolt (+4 from levels, +4 from arcane strike, +1 form PBS, and +1 from martial focus). The Marilith has ER 10, leaving you with 3d6 per hit against a touch AC of 17.

Yes, the -10 per hit hurts. But you can still contribute.


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so a lv17 character is doing ~10.5 damage a hit.
A lv17 archer is doing LOTS more than that, 1d8+3str+2weapon spec+10 deadly aim+5 weapon=1d8+20 so over twice your damage per hit.

Silver Crusade

Imbicatus wrote:
Endoralis wrote:
You seem to forget Imbicatus, a simple Demon (which those who pointed out this issue in that playtest) Will neuter any Warlock ever. Not to mention Deliquescent gloves wont work because that is a separate and additional energy, which is applied to resistance just the same.

Lets assume a 17th level Warlock facing a CR17 Marilith. Assuming you took the arcane striker talent, point blank shot, and martial focus (mystic bolts), that's 1d6+10 +2d6 holy per bolt (+4 from levels, +4 from arcane strike, +1 form PBS, and +1 from martial focus). The Marilith has ER 10, leaving you with 3d6 per hit against a touch AC of 17.

Yes, the -10 per hit hurts. But you can still contribute.

And notice you picked quite a high level to even justify that much. Unfortunately that is paltry compared to the amount of investment you likely placed to make the Mystic bolts any good. The standard Ranged feats, TWF Tree, Weapon Finesse, to maybe do 10 damage per hit against a creature that is your CR which you should be able to fight alone, if with some challenge. Instead you place alot of effort for little gain and as I said, another class with just enough to get Mystic Bolt does it better and still has their abilities, they also get 2nd level Wizard spells out of it.

Your case was even assuming you could use Holy but lets give the Warlock benefit of a doubt.


Endoralis wrote:
...a creature that is your CR which you should be able to fight alone, if with some challenge.

Is this really the new unofficial benchmark for character power?

Designer

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Tormsskull wrote:
Endoralis wrote:
...a creature that is your CR which you should be able to fight alone, if with some challenge.
Is this really the new unofficial benchmark for character power?

Theoretically, by the CR system, it should be at best 50/50 shot to win or lose against a creature of your CR (and that's assuming your character isn't focused on synergies with teammates, which some are) if you go all-out. That said, with the right options, it's definitely possible to optimize characters well beyond those expectations (players in my games often have such characters, for instance), even to make a 6-level spellcaster who can solo such a creature without using any of its spells. For instance, Imbicatus's proposed character (fleshed out with TWF feats and Rapid Shot, and maybe boots of speed) seems very likely to solo a CR 17 ancient green dragon without using any spells.

Silver Crusade

Player characters are assumed to be able to handle 4 events of a CR equal to their effective party level daily (Expending a quarter resources about). A party is assumed to have 4 persons. As such it should be possible handle something that is assumed your level of challenge. At least once a day if need be. Be that a trap, monster, NPC or otherwise. A Single PC has a lower EL but the Marilith still is within possible challenge.

The main issue I have is that with all such, you cannot because the overall bolt is far weaker than it should have been. Thing is, it has Wizard spells so it can ofcourse do things because spells are powerful. it does not excuse a weak feature however. Heck, if you placed no real investment and could do 10 damage a hit and were focused on something else that would be fine. But its the fact you do and do little better.

Liberty's Edge

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Actually...assuming TWF Feats, at that level, we're talking 8 attacks. At something like +21/+21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11 (+12 BAB +8 Dex +1 Bracers of Falcon's Aim +2 Heroism +1 Haste +1 PBS -2 Rapid Shot -2 TWF).

All told, that's somewhat north of 70 damage on average (probably more like 80, actually), in terms of DPR. By these benchmarks (which seem really valid to me), that kills the Marlith in four rounds, and is thus a perfectly respectable offense for the level in question.

It's not optimal, but then we're talking a worst case scenario for our Mystic Bolt user here. He does much better against the vast majority of foes (who are not Resistant to all 4 elements). They do nearly twice as well (for a DPR of something like 160) when that's not the case. Which is fairly impressive, actually.

Their damage is less as you go down in level, but then having a bow for backup being a valid strategy is more valid at lower levels.

Tormsskull wrote:
Endoralis wrote:
...a creature that is your CR which you should be able to fight alone, if with some challenge.
Is this really the new unofficial benchmark for character power?

That's...pretty close to the official benchmark of character power. An encounter of four creatures of CR=APL is supposed to be a toss-up who wins, and that's assuming it's not the only fight in the day. If it's the only fight and you can nova you should do better.


In fairness regarding the Marilith, we're talking about an enemy that plays specifically into the archetype's weaknesses and we're also talking about a sixth level spellcaster who doesn't cast a single spell.

So I mean, if you fight an enemy that's supposed to be a 50/50 on average, but also has stats that perfectly line up to counter you and you ignore your biggest class feature? It's not really a surprise the character doesn't do very well.

DPR also goes up quite a bit if you can use Sense Vitals, but no one can agree on whether or not that spell works for Warlocks, so ETV.

Worst case scenario it's not like you can't just pick up a longbow or something.

Liberty's Edge

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swoosh wrote:

In fairness regarding the Marilith, we're talking about an enemy that plays specifically into the archetypes' weaknesses and we're also talking about a sixth level spellcaster who doesn't cast a single spell.

So I mean, if you fight an enemy that's supposed to be a 50/50 on average, but also has stats that perfectly line up to counter you and you ignore your biggest class feature? It's not really a surprise the character doesn't do very well.

And yet you actually do pretty respectably with a little buffing. Hell, you do pretty well even sans buffing, to be honest.


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Mystic Bolt is one class feature among several. Including 6th level int based, prepared sor/wiz spellcasting. Something that by itself probably makes the Warlock stronger than the base Vigilante.

Liberty's Edge

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Prince Yyrkoon wrote:
Mystic Bolt is one class feature among several. Including 6th level int based, prepared sor/wiz spellcasting. Something that by itself probably makes the Warlock stronger than the base Vigilante.

And then there's that. Do you not want to rely on your Mystic Bolt? Then don't.

Especially at earlier levels, you're almost as good a caster as a Wizard is, after all. And even later, there are a huge number of spells you can cast and make yourself useful in the circumstances that your Mystic Bolts aren't useful.

Liberty's Edge

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Imbicatus wrote:
As they level warlock get additional energy types for free. They are limited to the standard four, but I can't think of anything non-epic that is immune to all of them. You just need to change types on the fly, and invest in knowledge skills to know what energy type will work.

Hello Imbicatus. Movanic and Monadic Devas are both non-epic and immune to all energy types. Fortunately they are good creatures, but I was actually forced into combat with one in a PFS scenario of all things*. Won't name which.

*Technically, my group did. But I could either fight it with them or let them all die. Not a good situation.

Endoralis wrote:
Not to mention Deliquescent gloves wont work because that is a separate and additional energy, which is applied to resistance just the same.

I have asked around on these boards, local VOs, etc. Possible Table Variation. Corrosive weapon property states that it is "extra" damage, same language as Sneak Attack for example. Sneak Attack, for instance, is not calculated separately for DR but is totaled. Argument is that Elemental Weapon Properties, assuming they deal the exact same damage type, would be totaled. It has never come up before because the Warlock is mostly unique in its ability to deal elemental damage as a weapon. YMMV. I generally agree that Mystic Bolt is not so great.

As an aside, I would like to mention that I consider Warlock to be a great archetype in most respects. Like swoosh, Prince Yyrkoon, and deadmanwalking mentioned, having 3/4 Spellcasting in the full Wizard spell list is incredible compared to what they trade it for. To be frank, I personally find it superior to base Vigilante even if I never use Mystic Bolt at all; though I have a massive Caster bias. That said, I'm hoping Mystic Bolt gets more support now or in the future. :)

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

My overall first reaction was "Mystic Bolts threaten when the character has a free hand? Sweet!"


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think the big takeaway for the Warlock is that despite sounding similar to its 3.5 counterpart, mystic bolt is not your core class feature. You're a 6th level spellcaster pulling off a great spell list with extra vigilante stuff on the side first and foremost.

You just happen to get a free, mediocre weapon that lets you do things like .. compensate for a poor attack stat by rolling vs touch, TWF and cast spells without a glove of storing, or be able to hold a rod or staff or wand or w/e, cast spells and still be able to threaten with a.. decentish weapon.

Basically I think the archetype makes a lot more sense if you treat it as a dedicated spellcaster with a really nifty super-cantrip rather than a class that gets energy weapons and some spellcasting.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Well, other than some really off the wall shenanigans and a shot that could go further than a bow, the 3.5 warlock had casting of a sort, going off abilities instead of spells.

Yeah, I am gonna see how this guy works.


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Rapid Shot and TWF stack, for three attacks at -4 total.
By the time you get to the level where you can have all the feats you need, you can succeed with the build.

Liberty's Edge

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master_marshmallow wrote:

Rapid Shot and TWF stack, for three attacks at -4 total.

By the time you get to the level where you can have all the feats you need, you can succeed with the build.

This level is 5th, for the record. As a Human, anyway.

1st: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2nd: Arcane Striker
3rd: Rapid Shot
5th: TWF

That gets you, assuming Dex 18 three attacks at +4/+4/+4 for 1d6+4 each while within point-blank range. That's not outrageously good or anything, but it's workable, and it gets better as levels go up.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Rapid Shot and TWF stack, for three attacks at -4 total.

By the time you get to the level where you can have all the feats you need, you can succeed with the build.

This level is 5th, for the record. As a Human, anyway.

1st: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2nd: Arcane Striker
3rd: Rapid Shot
5th: TWF

That gets you, assuming Dex 18 three attacks at +4/+4/+4 for 1d6+4 each while within point-blank range. That's not outrageously good or anything, but it's workable, and it gets better as levels go up.

Workable is the correct word for the assessment.

I believe you keep the talent at 6th?

Liberty's Edge

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master_marshmallow wrote:

Workable is the correct word for the assessment.

I believe you keep the talent at 6th?

Yep. I'd probably grab Inspired Vigilante just because Inspiration is amazing and I love it, but that's likely not the optimal choice all things considered, though it's not a bad one.


Add Weapon Finesse and Lethal Grance, and you've got a fairly workable switch hitter. The more I think about the archetype, the more I really start to like it.


Only the Weapon Finesse part of Lethal Grace works for Mystic Bolts, no STR to dmg so no 1/2 Vigilante level to dmg either.


Zabraxis wrote:
Only the Weapon Finesse part of Lethal Grace works for Mystic Bolts, no STR to dmg so no 1/2 Vigilante level to dmg either.

Right, I'm assuming a finesse weapon in the main hand, conductive eventually. Just forgot to mention it.

Liberty's Edge

You could also grab Weapon Finesse and just switch hit with bolts alone. You get one less attack in melee, but that's all you give up, and not that big a deal by the time you're grabbing ITWF. That keeps them all touch attacks, as well.

Scarab Sages

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swoosh wrote:
DPR also goes up quite a bit if you can use Sense Vitals, but no one can agree on whether or not that spell works for Warlocks, so ETV.

ETV?

Exposure Time Variance?
Emergency Towing Vessel?
Environmental Technology Verification?

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