Clerics and a Helm of Opposite Alignment


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

Dark Archive

IF a (CG)Cleric of Desna puts on a Helm of Opposite Alignment (Unknownly) and became a (LE)Cleric could they worship an evil or neurtral God within the alignment step to get their holy powers back?


You're asking a rule question not an advice question...

In any event the rules don't cover this. A LE character can worship any LE, LN, or NE deity. However, that does not mean that the cleric continues to have power or instantly gets back their power. In fact, I would probably make you role play out your conversion to a new deity and it would take time.

Of course I should also say that at least for my campaigns your character would be an NPC since players aren't allowed to play evil characters (normally). Your party would need to either find a way to reversed the effect for you to play your character or you would need to bring in a new character.


I don't believe anything ever says a cleric cannot change deities (though PFS might have a rule against it), subject to the alignment restriction of course. And if the CG cleric of Desna could decide to worship Sarenrae instead, I see no reason they can't turn to Asmodeus if their alignment suddenly allowed for it.


Thx for the info ill post the same question on Rules to get more info

Dark Archive

Meant to post that as Urtar Not Whitewing


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
I don't believe anything ever says a cleric cannot change deities (though PFS might have a rule against it), subject to the alignment restriction of course. And if the CG cleric of Desna could decide to worship Sarenrae instead, I see no reason they can't turn to Asmodeus if their alignment suddenly allowed for it.

Even if their alignment allowed it, Asmodeus does not necessarily grant power to those who are suddenly lawful evil, but have never studied in his priesthood or to those who are unfamiliar with his tenets.

It's a role playing activity.

Yes, at some point the cleric could convert to the religion of another god and receive power from them. No, it probably shouldn't be as simple or easy as pray once and get your spells the next day.

How long should it take? There is no real guidance for this. A human will spend a minimum of 2 years (from adult age of 15) to train and gain their first level of cleric. On average though, they will spend 7 years. Of course, you also have lots of experience under your belt, but you need to learn the basics of your new religion.

At the minimum, I would require you to contact a priest of the deity you are seeking to worship.

Scarab Sages

Urtar Mythstone wrote:
IF a (CG)Cleric of Desna puts on a Helm of Opposite Alignment (Unknownly) and became a (LE)Cleric could they worship an evil or neurtral God within the alignment step to get their holy powers back?

So just assuming the cleric doesn't use any precautions and decides to put on a magical helm without a second thought, they would become an "ex-cleric" until they atoned and fixed their alignment. The rules do cover this.

A kind GM would have the cleric's deity whisper something to the extent of "bad idea" when the cleric attempts to put on the helm.

Regarding class retraining to switch deities, that would be up to the GM. As written, I don't think you can switch. That said, I think the GM would be reasonable to role play certain deities that value turned agents of their enemy gods, and allow the cleric to switch deities instead of being an "ex-cleric." This would be an entirely roleplaying thing and completely at the mercy of the GM.


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Claxon wrote:
Even if their alignment allowed it, Asmodeus does not necessarily grant power to those who are suddenly lawful evil, but have never studied in his priesthood or to those who are unfamiliar with his tenets.

By the game rules that isn't true. Any character (who isn't already a Cleric) of an appropriate alignment can indeed take a level of cleric of Asmodeus and Asmodeus will indeed grant power.

Claxon wrote:
How long should it take? There is no real guidance for this.

To an extent there is. If a LE Fighter gains a level, they can take a level in cleric immediately if they desire.

Retraining would allow a cleric to train away cleric levels and train them back, following a new god, as the most extreme option. Most likely only certain class features would need to be retrained.

While it is true in the real world (or even in a fantasy world) some types of training would theoretically take years to accomplish, that is subsumed by the rules for PC advancement and leveling. My 1st level fighter could theoretically in a few weeks of adventuring become a wizard, a cleric and druid (and be an absolute mess of a character that can't do anything, but that is beside the point.)


Claxon wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
I don't believe anything ever says a cleric cannot change deities (though PFS might have a rule against it), subject to the alignment restriction of course. And if the CG cleric of Desna could decide to worship Sarenrae instead, I see no reason they can't turn to Asmodeus if their alignment suddenly allowed for it.

Even if their alignment allowed it, Asmodeus does not necessarily grant power to those who are suddenly lawful evil, but have never studied in his priesthood or to those who are unfamiliar with his tenets.

It's a role playing activity.

Certainly agreed---by "turn to Asmodeus" I didn't mean necessarily getting power from him immediately---but I think a good Knowledge(religion) bonus would cover the studying and tenets. For some deities that might even be enough. Since Asmodeus is totally into hierarchy, I'd definitely require finding a place in his priesthood first. But that's a GM tweak, not part of RAW.


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Yeah, my church accepts everyone, just sign here...


Dave Justus wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Even if their alignment allowed it, Asmodeus does not necessarily grant power to those who are suddenly lawful evil, but have never studied in his priesthood or to those who are unfamiliar with his tenets.

By the game rules that isn't true. Any character (who isn't already a Cleric) of an appropriate alignment can indeed take a level of cleric of Asmodeus and Asmodeus will indeed grant power.

Claxon wrote:
How long should it take? There is no real guidance for this.

To an extent there is. If a LE Fighter gains a level, they can take a level in cleric immediately if they desire.

Retraining would allow a cleric to train away cleric levels and train them back, following a new god, as the most extreme option. Most likely only certain class features would need to be retrained.

While it is true in the real world (or even in a fantasy world) some types of training would theoretically take years to accomplish, that is subsumed by the rules for PC advancement and leveling. My 1st level fighter could theoretically in a few weeks of adventuring become a wizard, a cleric and druid (and be an absolute mess of a character that can't do anything, but that is beside the point.)

Your points are true, but have always been contentious points. And by that I mean, from a narrative standpoint it doesn't make sense to allow the LE fighter to take a level in cleric if the character had not expressed an interest in a specific deity or merely paid lip service.

The rules tend not to cover this because it's hard to write up a restriction that says "Must be devout follower" and govern how to enforce it.

We also have a slightly different scenario, one that is more akin to the idea that the LE fighter suddenly wants to be a cleric of Cayden Cailean.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I recall reading that the Atonement spell is normally used to enable an ex-cleric to regain his class abilities (possibly with new domains) by converting to the service of a different deity.


That is true-ish to an extent David,

Quote:

This spell removes the burden of misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings). Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected.

Reverse Magical Alignment Change: If a creature has had its alignment magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no additional cost.

Restore Class: A paladin, or other class, who has lost her class features due to violating the alignment restrictions of her class may have her class features restored by this spell.

Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers: A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric must expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings for her god's intercession.

Redemption or Temptation: You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally.

Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment, regardless of the actual alignment in question.

Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player. This use of atonement offers a method for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.

But the unfortunate problem is that the Helm makes the cursed individual not want to return to their former alignment. They would need to remove the cursed helm and cast atonement on the cleric in order to restore him to normal, with his original deity.

However, based on the OPs post, I thought the option wasn't on the table. Instead he wanted to see what embracing his new alignment and a new deity would entail before regaining his clerical powers.

Dark Archive

Claxon wrote:

That is true-ish to an extent David,

Quote:

This spell removes the burden of misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings). Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected.

Reverse Magical Alignment Change: If a creature has had its alignment magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no additional cost.

Restore Class: A paladin, or other class, who has lost her class features due to violating the alignment restrictions of her class may have her class features restored by this spell.

Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers: A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric must expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings for her god's intercession.

Redemption or Temptation: You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally.

Though the spell description refers to

...

Yes becuase of how the helm works i was hoping that the cleric who hates the idea of evil, devils, and slavery would become one who acceptes all of that and more for the better and worse. Asmodeus would be the perfect god in that aspect, and is the god my character is worshiping currently.


This is more than a story question than a rules one.

But for me, the way it rolls is that for a period of time, our hapless cleric is essentialy a cleric without a patron, effectively an apostate.

Now Asmodeus or other LE power knows that they are the ones operating with a strong hand. They probably (through their clerics) insist that said character would have to perform AND succeed in a quest for their new god before powers would be granted.


There are no rules for this, so it is not actually a rules question. Advice is probably right and my advice is this: do not take away a player's power. That is not fun. You can offer them a choice or a way for Desna to repair their curse. Alignment can be fun to play with, but only with the other player and without taking away their toys.


Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
There are no rules for this, so it is not actually a rules question. Advice is probably right and my advice is this: do not take away a player's power. That is not fun. You can offer them a choice or a way for Desna to repair their curse. Alignment can be fun to play with, but only with the other player and without taking away their toys.

^This. It always sucks to have your abilities taken away. But it's ESPECIALLY worse for Clerics and Druids.

NEVER spring this up on your players without everybody knowing exactly what is going on. ESPECIALLY as the result of a magic item. Make absolutely sure that your player is on board with this before you do anything.


Urtar Mythstone wrote:
Yes becuase of how the helm works i was hoping that the cleric who hates the idea of evil, devils, and slavery would become one who acceptes all of that and more for the better and worse. Asmodeus would be the perfect god in that aspect, and is the god my character is worshiping currently.

Wait, am I to understand you plan on doing this to someone else's character?


My understanding is that you would need to have an atonement cast to restore class powers by a worshipper of the deity you are trying to convert to as part of converting to that faith.

Keep in mind that to the new deity, you'd be atoning for all the "misdeeds" you committed in the service of another god, and would be seeking penance to prove your loyalty to your newly-pledged master.

Dark Archive

Claxon wrote:
Urtar Mythstone wrote:
Yes becuase of how the helm works i was hoping that the cleric who hates the idea of evil, devils, and slavery would become one who acceptes all of that and more for the better and worse. Asmodeus would be the perfect god in that aspect, and is the god my character is worshiping currently.
Wait, am I to understand you plan on doing this to someone else's character?

Yes. This is a king maker campaign and my character(Bladebound Magus) is trying to sway everyone to his side I already have the rouge all I need are the cavalier, the cleric, and the guy who is currently dead but will have a new character soon.


I hope they're OK with this OOCly, otherwise your game might be cut short rather violently.


Should be noted that taking 2 years to become a Cleric might not be to get invested of a role but it might be the necessary time to learn how to handle divine magic that deities send.

The idea of higher level cleric getting higher spells and more slots dosen't revolve on the deity giving approval to more powerful magic to that individual, but the individual being able to wield higher magic that he is always receiving, simply because he became more skilled at it

Shadow Lodge

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Well, first off, that's a pretty dick move. That's on par wit the Cleric spamming Bestow Curse (permanent) or Mark of Justice on you while you sleep. If I do this every night for a week, odds are he's going to fail at least once. If I target Wisdom first, then hit him with the -4 to all saves, within 2 weeks he is assured to be hit by every single version of Bestow Curse, and then I'll write on him while he's asleep, Mark of Justice has no save, so no more even holding a weapon or casting a spell for this guy. Ever. . . ."

Secondly, it's pretty stupid. They will get a DC 15 Will Save to negate the Alignment Shift, and that's if they don't recognize the helm for what it is.

Either of those things happening, (with one being pretty likely and the other more 50/50) is probably going to result in your Magus being killed, the entire party turning against them, and I wouldn't say it's unlikely that you, the player are just banned from the group outright.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

This is more than a story question than a rules one.

But for me, the way it rolls is that for a period of time, our hapless cleric is essentialy a cleric without a patron, effectively an apostate.

Now Asmodeus or other LE power knows that they are the ones operating with a strong hand. They probably (through their clerics) insist that said character would have to perform AND succeed in a quest for their new god before powers would be granted.

So, "go succeed in this quest while unable to use your class abilities"?

That sounds like a blast.

Dark Archive

I was planning on telling him(cleric) its an experimental magic helm that would boost the mental prowess of an individual with an open and willing mind. Then after the helmet worked I would try to convert him to Asmodeus and then there will be three LE PCs and one CG PC. Who by numbers will have to do as we say. (Insert Evil laugh here)


Urtar Mythstone wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Urtar Mythstone wrote:
Yes becuase of how the helm works i was hoping that the cleric who hates the idea of evil, devils, and slavery would become one who acceptes all of that and more for the better and worse. Asmodeus would be the perfect god in that aspect, and is the god my character is worshiping currently.
Wait, am I to understand you plan on doing this to someone else's character?
Yes. This is a king maker campaign and my character(Bladebound Magus) is trying to sway everyone to his side I already have the rouge all I need are the cavalier, the cleric, and the guy who is currently dead but will have a new character soon.

This is what most of us would refer to as "An epic dick move".

Seriously, don't do it.

Shadow Lodge

Urtar Mythstone wrote:
I was planning on telling him(cleric) its an experimental magic helm that would boost the mental prowess of an individual with an open and willing mind.

"That's, um, ok. Why don't YOU show us all how it works. . ."

:P


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You're thinking of doing this to another PC?

Yeah, don't do that. For one, that's not LE - LE/Asmodeus is about *temptation* and getting someone to fall of their own volition. Using a blunt instrument like this is not clever.

But let's say you did - even if the cleric did decide to convert to another faith, there's no reason to believe that he'd suddenly convert to YOUR religion, nor does it wipe the character's memory of what you've done or how the conversion happened.

So, if it was me, as a newly-LE character, I'd immediately recognize that your character is a lying, traitorous, honorless dog that needs to be put down; I'd probably join the Hellknights and work to see your character tried and executed.

As the *DM* seeing a player attempt this on a cleric of *DESNA* (a goddess of liberation and freedom), I'd deus ex machina the hell out of that moment providing the cleric has at all been a good and loyal servant of the deity: we're talking a Bralani Azata showing up to break the curse and kick some ass kind of moment.

There is no way this plan ends up well for you.


You can't force somebody to play any alignment they don't want to. I mean he puts the helm on and the character acts no different than he did before. what are you gonna do about it? complain that he doesn't lie enough? complain that he doesn't kill enough, complain that he doesn't play his character in a way that you think he should? you might as well take his character sheet and tell him to go home if you're going to pull a move like this.

Dark Archive

BlackJack Weasel wrote:
You can't force somebody to play any alignment they don't want to. I mean he puts the helm on and the character acts no different than he did before. what are you gonna do about it? complain that he doesn't lie enough? complain that he doesn't kill enough, complain that he doesn't play his character in a way that you think he should? you might as well take his character sheet and tell him to go home if you're going to pull a move like this.

The way we play is that we don't play the game we play the characters and if his character is now one who is now an organized evil he'll play it that way.

Shadow Lodge

You may be missing the point. It might be you are a new player or it might be that your group is OK with this sort of thing. If your group of players is, then ignore, but if it does apply, it is probably worth your time to listen to the advice offered.

The other person built the character they wanted to play. If they had wanted to play an evil cleric, that's probably what they would have done to start. This goes way beyond what the rules say about the class, and is entirely about one player, (you), forcing another, (the Cleric), to play what is essentially your character.

What's worse is by doing so you are either forcing them to play an extremely underpowered and I'll designed one, (its doubtful that their prior Feats will carry over effectively), or to play the game you want to play. Either way is exceptionally douchbaggy.

Every class can do a little gimmick like that to others. Like I said earlier the Cleric could spam the crap of you with Bestow Curse. The Rogue could rob you blind while you sleep or just pocket the best loot before you even have a chance to see it. Trying to make the Paladin fall through a cursed item isn't any more mature than any of the others, its just less genius an attempt to ruin other players fun. Again, if the other players. , all of them are on board with this and this doesn't apply, then ignore it.

Your Magus should be smart enough to get how bad an idea this is, though. The Cleric knows full well what happened, they just suddenly lose any reason or care about not killing you for it. Once word about what you did to one of Desna's chosen, and it will, its pretty likely you will be hunted and the Cleric will be sought after for restoration and reclamation. Its not too likely another deity would be interested in taking in a new priest who is likely only temporarily, and certainly only artificially loyal.


There was a post not that long ago about a player who was playing a desnan cleric adventuring with a group of evil murderhobos.

Are you another player from that group?

I've seen groups that roll this way back in the day, and he'll either be okay with it. (If you wallow with pigs and all that....) Or he'll walk out of your group.

Dark Archive

No I'm not, but my Magus has already helped a cleric of Erastil which gives me credit as a nice guy while the cavalier acused the cleric as a werewolf witch and that he should be burned at the stake.(which is weird since the cavalier worships Erastil)


Urtar Mythstone wrote:
BlackJack Weasel wrote:
You can't force somebody to play any alignment they don't want to. I mean he puts the helm on and the character acts no different than he did before. what are you gonna do about it? complain that he doesn't lie enough? complain that he doesn't kill enough, complain that he doesn't play his character in a way that you think he should? you might as well take his character sheet and tell him to go home if you're going to pull a move like this.
The way we play is that we don't play the game we play the characters and if his character is now one who is now an organized evil he'll play it that way.

will he? how will you enforce this? the player wants to play a chaotic good character, you can't make him play a character alignment he doesn't want to. like I said, he's wearing the helm and his alignment as far as the rules are concerned is LE. but you can't expect or force him to play the character any different and if you could enforce it all you'd do is remove agency from the player. raising a flag every time he pets the dog instead of kicking it? every time he helps the old lady cross the street instead of robbing her blind? forcing him to do things that he doesn't want to do. you'd essentially be removing that players input in the game. you might as well tell them to go home whilst you take control of their character.

and on the other side if you can't enforce it, you can't force him to do anything because you don't have that power as a fellow player and as a fellow player you shouldn't. he'll play his character the way he wants to regardless of helm and you'd just have to suck it up. If he doesn't want to play a character who kicks dogs and robs old ladies you can't make him play one.

Silver Crusade

BlackJack Weasel wrote:
Urtar Mythstone wrote:
BlackJack Weasel wrote:
You can't force somebody to play any alignment they don't want to. I mean he puts the helm on and the character acts no different than he did before. what are you gonna do about it? complain that he doesn't lie enough? complain that he doesn't kill enough, complain that he doesn't play his character in a way that you think he should? you might as well take his character sheet and tell him to go home if you're going to pull a move like this.
The way we play is that we don't play the game we play the characters and if his character is now one who is now an organized evil he'll play it that way.

will he? how will you enforce this? the player wants to play a chaotic good character, you can't make him play a character alignment he doesn't want to. like I said, he's wearing the helm and his alignment as far as the rules are concerned is LE. but you can't expect or force him to play the character any different and if you could enforce it all you'd do is remove agency from the player. raising a flag every time he pets the dog instead of kicking it? every time he helps the old lady cross the street instead of robbing her blind? forcing him to do things that he doesn't want to do. you'd essentially be removing that players input in the game. you might as well tell them to go home whilst you take control of their character.

and on the other side if you can't enforce it, you can't force him to do anything because you don't have that power as a fellow player and as a fellow player you shouldn't. he'll play his character the way he wants to regardless of helm and you'd just have to suck it up. If he doesn't want to play a character who kicks dogs and robs old ladies you can't make him play one.

His table, if this is the way they roll, so be it. No need to tell them how their fun is wrong because it doesn't mesh with how you play. If the DM is okay with party PvP, and is okay with this thats their choice.

Personally deus ex machina from the DM to prevent this would be worse for me than what he is doing, at least anything as overt as high level outsider pops in and kills the magus. What he is doing assumes the cleric is gullible enough to do what the evil magus wants, and could actually be a great moment for the cleric to explore different things with his character, not the least of which is the potential to return to his former self.

If the cleric player doesn't want this to be permanent the DM can then work in response, with numerous methods to counter-act this. For one does the cleric have an established church in the town? This evil, which to be frank isn't exactly the most clandestine conversion, might spark an uprising against the magus' faction in the town.

Alternatively the cleric might embrace the evil, but understanding the magus betrayed him he works against him, perhaps even embracing Eiseth, or another deity that would allow him to work against him, but no longer restrained by being good. Alseta might be another good deity if the cleric is more introspective, lawful neutral god about transitions, doors, and thresholds.

Personally, I'd be fine with the switch, at least in the interim, but hell no I am not siding with him. If I did go Asmodeus it would be to supplant the magus in his favor and role. The magus wants a mini-cheliax, fine, but it would be the clerics to oversee. Also, being evil, no reason to heal the magus or his supporters again. But then I do tend to have a slight vindictive streak in games.


Scythia wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

This is more than a story question than a rules one.

But for me, the way it rolls is that for a period of time, our hapless cleric is essentialy a cleric without a patron, effectively an apostate.

Now Asmodeus or other LE power knows that they are the ones operating with a strong hand. They probably (through their clerics) insist that said character would have to perform AND succeed in a quest for their new god before powers would be granted.

So, "go succeed in this quest while unable to use your class abilities"?

That sounds like a blast.

Quests aren't supposed to be easy. And no one said you can't get help.

Take it from the Big A's point of view. He really isn't interested in recruiting Desna's rejects, but those that prove themselves capable.


Urtar Mythstone wrote:
No I'm not, but my Magus has already helped a cleric of Erastil which gives me credit as a nice guy while the cavalier acused the cleric as a werewolf witch and that he should be burned at the stake.(which is weird since the cavalier worships Erastil)

Just be ready for IC and OOC backlash.

I had someone do this to me once in a game in almost the same way as you're describing.

My character wasn't happy.

It wasn't the alignment change, the helm states that you must act in accordance, it was that the character took my character's choice away that didn't sit well.

The next time we rested I coup de graced him in his sleep. Crushed his head with my warhammer.

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