Rely more on obstacles/encounters other than traps? It's not the Gygax "traps, traps everywhere!" era any more. :)
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DO NOT SIMPLY RAISE THE DCs!
There is nothing more frustrating having a character that is an ace at something, or at least should be, and then suddenly the world changes and every trap ever is permanency invisible, so it can be found with a 50% chance at best.
Why did i then even choose a character concept that spend so much on being the best at traps, when i could also half-assed it and still find stuff 50% of the time?
The XP he gets are not "for free"! He spend a whole bunch of character resources to get this far.
P.S.
Also most traps are barely an annoiance at best. If nothing else happens, like a combat immediately starting, or the target person fleeing, you end up with a little pause and a few charges drained from the Cure Light Wounds wand, or some spellslots spend to save wand charges if you are hgih enough to know you will never be casting down to 1st or 2rd level spells.
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They spent feats, skill ranks, and money for magic items in order to become that good. Let them enjoy it. Let them auto-spot a number of traps -- the character obviously doesn't think it is fun to run into traps.
You don't reduce the damage on a barbarian that throws a significant amount of resources into improving damage, do you?
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If a player puts resources into being good at something, and I raise the bar to negate it then I am basically negating his effort. Maybe he intended to auto-detect traps so let him do it. It's not like he has a 45 AC, and you can't hit him so he waltzes through all of the combats.
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My question is should I make traps with a perception DC of 60, or so, just to combat his really high perception. increasing CR accordingly of course
No, you shouldn't. The player has invested quite a lot of resources in being able to be good at something. By arbitrarily raising the DCs, you are basically depriving him of the use of those resources and depriving him of the fun of being good at what he specifically wants to be good at.
That's roughly equivalent to my saying "I want to play the greatest swordsman in the land" and you as the game master saying "all right, then, I'll make sure that there are no combat encounters so you never have an excuse to draw a sword."
Or it's like my taking an enchantment-specialized wizard and your rewriting the module on the fly so that every opponent is undead and therefore immune to enchantment spells. That's uncool, to the point of set fire to the GM's rulebooks because he's obviously not using them.
Pathfinder is a resource-allocation game. Levels, feats, skills, traits, and gold for magic items are all resources that can be put to any task one likes. The choices the players make tell you what they want the game to be like. If you want to run a module as-written (without regard to the players' choices), that's acceptable, but less fun than if you actually provide what they want. But if you go out of your way not to provide what they want,.... it's hard to make that to be anything but an actively hostile move.
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IMHO, you should keep traps around - in appropriate places, of course. If for no other reason, than to give the trapfinding player the satisfaction of having spent his skill points wisely.
And some traps will continue to be dangerous even for those who spot them. The mechanism may well be on the *other* side of the trap. And mid to high level players are liable to feel very complacent about traps, and not even accept to wait around while Mr Trapfinder does his stuff. Which could be deliciously intricate indeed.
Don't forget Grimtooth's Traps. Let those honeys inspire you. And don't forget Rube Goldberg. Lots of inspiration to be had there, too.
Traps will continue to be dangerous when paired with other challenges. Don't give in to the "it's not Gygax era anymore" crowd. Traps are not just for Trappy McTrapface.
Does he have the trap spotter talent or something similar? If not the perception rolls are not automatic and he has to actively be looking for the trap. If there is no danger when he encounters the trap this is probably not a problem, but if he encounters the trap during combat that is another story.
Another option is to have a trap that is multistage traps where disarming one arms another in a different location. Maybe the trap on the treasure room activates the one on the dungeon entrance/exit. This way he can find the first trap that is already disarmed so he forgets about it. After disarming the second trap the first trap is now armed. Since he already knows about the first trap he does not get another check unless he looks. If the trap is magical the first trap may not even be in existence until triggered by the second trap so there would be no roll the first time through. Be careful not to overuse this as other have stated the player invested a lot of resources in being able to find things so he should get to use what he paid for so to speak.
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Oh joy. Another "I hate competent characters" thread.
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Oh joy. Another "I hate competent characters" thread.
My thought exactly.
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Does he have the trap spotter talent or something similar? If not the perception rolls are not automatic and he has to actively be looking for the trap. If there is no danger when he encounters the trap this is probably not a problem, but if he encounters the trap during combat that is another story.
Another option is to have a trap that is multistage traps where disarming one arms another in a different location. Maybe the trap on the treasure room activates the one on the dungeon entrance/exit. This way he can find the first trap that is already disarmed so he forgets about it. After disarming the second trap the first trap is now armed. Since he already knows about the first trap he does not get another check unless he looks. If the trap is magical the first trap may not even be in existence until triggered by the second trap so there would be no roll the first time through. Be careful not to overuse this as other have stated the player invested a lot of resources in being able to find things so he should get to use what he paid for so to speak.
The trapfinder is not always the trap disabler. This could fall on another party member.
This is also the type of thing that will make players paranoid and have them rolling dice too much and slowing down gameplay. It only needs to happen once.
Does he have the trap spotter talent or something similar? If not the perception rolls are not automatic and he has to actively be looking for the trap. If there is no danger when he encounters the trap this is probably not a problem, but if he encounters the trap during combat that is another story.
Another option is to have a trap that is multistage traps where disarming one arms another in a different location. Maybe the trap on the treasure room activates the one on the dungeon entrance/exit. This way he can find the first trap that is already disarmed so he forgets about it. After disarming the second trap the first trap is now armed. Since he already knows about the first trap he does not get another check unless he looks. If the trap is magical the first trap may not even be in existence until triggered by the second trap so there would be no roll the first time through. Be careful not to overuse this as other have stated the player invested a lot of resources in being able to find things so he should get to use what he paid for so to speak.
The trapfinder is not always the trap disabler. This could fall on another party member.
This is also the type of thing that will make players paranoid and have them rolling dice too much and slowing down gameplay. It only needs to happen once.
Considering the original poster specifies they character has the trapfinder trait, and has an equally high disarm device it is a logical assumption that he is the one disarming traps.
If a player is investing as much as this one has in dealing with traps the GM should use them. If the GM simply ignores traps, that is as bad if not worse than arbitrarily adjusting the difficulty.
As to it slowing down the game there are things that can be done to speed this up. If the player states that are looking for traps simply slow down their progress without slowing down the game. Telling the players that it take twice as long to walk down the hall does not really take anymore game time than telling them they walk faster. While I am not a fan of the GM rolling for the player this is one time I would do it. If there are no traps just roll behind the screen and pretend to read the dice, if there is a trap then pay attention to the roll.
Does he have the trap spotter talent or something similar? If not the perception rolls are not automatic and he has to actively be looking for the trap. If there is no danger when he encounters the trap this is probably not a problem, but if he encounters the trap during combat that is another story.
Another option is to have a trap that is multistage traps where disarming one arms another in a different location. Maybe the trap on the treasure room activates the one on the dungeon entrance/exit. This way he can find the first trap that is already disarmed so he forgets about it. After disarming the second trap the first trap is now armed. Since he already knows about the first trap he does not get another check unless he looks. If the trap is magical the first trap may not even be in existence until triggered by the second trap so there would be no roll the first time through. Be careful not to overuse this as other have stated the player invested a lot of resources in being able to find things so he should get to use what he paid for so to speak.
The trapfinder is not always the trap disabler. This could fall on another party member.
This is also the type of thing that will make players paranoid and have them rolling dice too much and slowing down gameplay. It only needs to happen once.
Considering the original poster specifies they character has the trapfinder trait, and has an equally high disarm device it is a logical assumption that he is the one disarming traps.
If a player is investing as much as this one has in dealing with traps the GM should use them. If the GM simply ignores traps, that is as bad if not worse than arbitrarily adjusting the difficulty.
As to it slowing down the game there are things that can be done to speed this up. If the player states that are looking for traps simply slow down their progress without slowing down the game. Telling the players that it take twice as long to...
I missed that highe disarm statement, but how are you going to not let the game be slow when he start to roll a lot more?
Even if you(the GM) are rolling the rolls is still being made unless you agree to only roll for any potential threats, and throw in a few extra rolls so they don't metagame.
...Does he have the trap spotter talent or something similar? If not the perception rolls are not automatic and he has to actively be looking for the trap. If there is no danger when he encounters the trap this is probably not a problem, but if he encounters the trap during combat that is another story.
Another option is to have a trap that is multistage traps where disarming one arms another in a different location. Maybe the trap on the treasure room activates the one on the dungeon entrance/exit. This way he can find the first trap that is already disarmed so he forgets about it. After disarming the second trap the first trap is now armed. Since he already knows about the first trap he does not get another check unless he looks. If the trap is magical the first trap may not even be in existence until triggered by the second trap so there would be no roll the first time through. Be careful not to overuse this as other have stated the player invested a lot of resources in being able to find things so he should get to use what he paid for so to speak.
The trapfinder is not always the trap disabler. This could fall on another party member.
This is also the type of thing that will make players paranoid and have them rolling dice too much and slowing down gameplay. It only needs to happen once.
Considering the original poster specifies they character has the trapfinder trait, and has an equally high disarm device it is a logical assumption that he is the one disarming traps.
If a player is investing as much as this one has in dealing with traps the GM should use them. If the GM simply ignores traps, that is as bad if not worse than arbitrarily adjusting the difficulty.
As to it slowing down the game there are things that can be done to speed this up. If the player states that are looking for traps simply slow down their progress without slowing down the game. Telling the
These types of rolls are best done by the GM not the player. The trick is you only need to worry about the roll if there is an actual trap.
If you are using dice get in the habit of idly rolling dice while you are doing something else. The trick is you only have to pay attention when there is something actually going on. Most of the time you are simply flipping dice and ignoring them, but every once in a while pause as is you are looking at something. Then when a situation like a trap comes up it will not be an automatic give away.
I use a computer and hero labs when I am running. It has a built in dice roller so I can roll 99 rolls with a single click of the button. Since I am constantly checking things on the system and my players cannot see the screen they have no clue if I am looking up something or actually rolling a check of some sort.
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If the player knows his perception is pre-roll is higher than the trap DC he doesn't even need to roll barring GM inflation of trap perception DC's. He can just say I am checking everything that might be trapped. So I guess the actual rolling is not needed. He just needs to specify when the roll is happening.
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Stop trying to solve your problem out-of-character. Remember, every problem is really an opportunity in disguise...
Any character with an enormous amount of anything, whether it's combat ability, skill mastery, spellcasting, wealth, followers, etc, is going to attract attention. After all, this is a fantasy world with magical scrying, hyperbolic bards, gossiping villagers, and endless tomes full of myths and legends.
So, what happens when a character becomes world-renowned for spotting traps? Maybe a merchant from a far-away land hears about him and sends a desperate letter: "My family's ancient treasure was stolen by Ulaph, the demon prince of trickery and traps! Only you can navigate through his vault of insidious contraptions and magical dangers. Find the treasure and I'll split it with you!" Sounds like a typical adventure plot, yeah, but now you've given yourself free reign to fill it with the craziest traps you can think of! Better yet, your player won't feel slighted by it in the least, rather, he'll feel like he's in the spotlight!
Better yet, for years after that adventure, you'd better bet Ulaph is going to remember this puny mortal that defeated the best traps in his vault. From that point on, Mr. 40+ Perception Check has a demon prince hounding him from the netherworld, occasionally setting otherworldly traps in his way in the hopes of getting revenge. So, for the rest of that character's career, you can toss a DC 50+ trap into an adventure and, not only will the player not be at all angry, he'll be thrilled that once again, his character's personal plot line is center stage!
At level 15 he has a +40 bonus in perception.
How?15 ranks
3 class skill
10 alertness and skill focus
4 wisdom
2 half-elf keen senses
5 eyes of the eagle item
1 seeker traithe also has the trapfinder trait which lets him disable magic traps
The dude has invested 25% of his 8 Feats and his 2 traits into that skill. Let him suceed in this thing he is good at. A lot.
Do not just have him spot traps, but ambushes with really well disguised enemies, the footsteps of invisible assasins etc.I am fairly certain I should stick to what is fun. so now my question turns to what is fun?
you find this trap, and disable it (similarly high disable check) here have some xp.
OR
(secretly rolls perception(fails))
You walk across the hall and the floor explodes dealing 34 damage. here have a lot of xp.
Yeah that is the problem with most traditional traps. If the group cannot spot them the paladin will walk through save take some damage and than heal themselves.
I would go with what the others said. Make traps more interesting than just two skill rolls.
Examples:
-part of a combat encounter
A pit trap in front of a group of archers/blasters etc. . Now even if your Perception guy manages to alert the fighters before they charge in, the group still has has to make a plan how to deal with the situation.
Fly/Teleport over the hidden pit? Have their guy disable the pit and try to protect him from their enemies missiles?
-even after spotting the trap, disabling it could still be a challenge
There is a device on the other side of the room blasting multiple random lightnings into the area, with a high enough perception check the hero can spot an two exposed cogwheels on the device, which of stopped from moving could stop the device. Again the group still needs a solution how to bypass the lightings even if the know how to bypass that thing.
The trap guy would have to Tumble through the lightning (or have a protection from Energy spell have cast on him) to use disable device. Or the group could try blocking the device by putting an object(shooting an arrow, levitating something) in beetween the two cogwheels. The Barbarian could charge through and smash the cogwheel. They could hold the cogwheel still with a telekinesis spell etc.
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If you want to make traps more interesting, put traps in combat.
Yes, seriously. Spiked pits in the middle of a room in combat. Flame traps come from the ceiling in a room full of fire resistane/immune enemies.
Now the rogue really has things to do while the enemy fights them. It makes traps far more interesting.
Traps by themselves are worthless. There are three outcomes...
1) Someone notices the trap and avoids/disables/or sets it off with a summoned creature.
2) Someone notices and sets it off by accident
2a) The trap isn't enough to kill and is usually just some hp damage, which will be prompty healed with a wand of CLW
2b) The trap is enough to kill someone outright, which is very unfun for players. Failing a single roll shouldn't result in instant death.
3) No one notices the trap and you get 2a or 2b.
All 3 options aren't interesting in the slightest.
Traps are thematically appropriate at certain places, but don't expect them to be a serious impediment.
Start including them in places where combat will occur, and have the traps be designed not to hamper the creatures in the dungeon. Pit traps in rooms with flying creatures. Fire traps in rooms with fire resistant/immune creatures. This makes combat much more interesting.
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Bear in mind also, if the CR of the trap is equal to or less than the APL-10 (so presumably CR5 for this group) the trap is worth no exp anyways, even CR 9 and 10 traps are going to be giving very little exp compared to what a normal CR 15 encounter would, so that's not necessarily something to get too worried over.
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This is the Typical "why even play Rogue" Dilemma.
Rogue has a Specific Role and by taking it away you immidially remove the Class Feature. You wont take a Sorcerer his Flying cause the Earth Elemental cant reach him, do you?
Actually, a lot of GMs on this forum seem to do just that:
* The Paladin's smite evil is destroying everything! All right, everything in this next castle is some form of neutral.
* The Enchanter's spells are too powerful! All right, everything gets a +infinity to their Will saves (or is outright immune).
* The Ranger's arrows are killing everything! All right, everything is now protected by infinite numbers of mirror images.
* The Fighter is tripping everything with her reach weapon! All right, everything in this dungeon that doesn't fly is now a centipede!
* The Monk has an unhittable AC!!! All right, everything in this dungeon has a permanent true strike on it.
That doesn't mean that it's not a jerk move, just that there are a lot of jerks out there. A lot of GMs seem to get really upset when the players are actually good at what they're supposed to be good at.
Ultimate Intrigue has a Undetectable Trap spell. For your purposes the only benefit is that it raises the DC to spot traps by half the caster's CL. The problem is that it's only on the lists for Antipaladins, Occultists, and Rangers, so it's hard to think of a good reason for it to be broadly applied to lots of traps at a high CL. And it only lasts day/level rather than being permanent, so an expert Level 16 Ranger trap consultant who travels the world for high paying clients doesn't help.
Aye. you build combat encounters expecting the party to trounce them, spend some healing, and move on.
Build the trap encounters expecting them to get beaten, shave off time, and move on. You're only miffed because they aren't spending resources NOW to recover from the trap, instead having them spent well ahead of time.
having a player spot traps and is more believable and satisfying then having the party fly or teleport right past them, right?
==Aelryinth
If you want to make traps more interesting, put traps in combat.
Yes, seriously. Spiked pits in the middle of a room in combat. Flame traps come from the ceiling in a room full of fire resistane/immune enemies.
Now the rogue really has things to do while the enemy fights them. It makes traps far more interesting.
Traps by themselves are worthless. There are three outcomes...
1) Someone notices the trap and avoids/disables/or sets it off with a summoned creature.
2) Someone notices and sets it off by accident
2a) The trap isn't enough to kill and is usually just some hp damage, which will be prompty healed with a wand of CLW
2b) The trap is enough to kill someone outright, which is very unfun for players. Failing a single roll shouldn't result in instant death.
3) No one notices the trap and you get 2a or 2b.All 3 options aren't interesting in the slightest.
Actually, I think there's an interesting fourth option.
4) Someone notices the trap and goes somewhere else in the dungeon. This lets the baddie have an effective "crowd control" tactic to make sure the eventual combat happens at a place of her choosing and under circumstances beneficial to her. Oddly enough, this is often how traps happen in the real world -- you lay a mine field not because you want to kill people, but because you want the enemy not to use the mined area.
But, of course, to use this, you need people to know about the trap and NOT simply to walk through it with a summoned monster.
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To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, doing that isn't NECESSARILY bad, it's just a matter of how often, how heavy handedly, and for how long you do it.
As a GM, I want to have fun too. If all the monsters in the dungeon have too low of a Perception to see invisible party members, and everyone can turn invisible, after a while I'm either going to start tweaking their perception scores so they at least have a CHANCE of spotting them (that Skill Focus: Fly they have can easily become Perception) or give a few of the important boss monsters potions of See Invisibility, because the shank shank bleh game gets old after a while.
That's not to say every monster is going to have +20 or above Perception, but the sentries guarding the fort need at least a fighting chance on beating that 10+20+Stealth score.
Admittedly, I find myself doing this much MORE often with pre-written APs than homebrew games, but that's more a testament to APs being woefully unprepared to handle ANY kind of optimization in the group than anything else.
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I have an Investigator in my game that regularly makes 40s or 50s Perception checks. I pretty much assume he is going to spot anything and plan accordingly. The player built him as a skill monkey so skill checks are about the only time he really shines his combat skills are pretty meh.
I toss lots of skill challenges at the party that I know he is going to pass and most of the others fail. It is his time to shine. Why not let him?
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As a GM, I want to have fun too. If all the monsters in the dungeon have too low of a Perception to see invisible party members, and everyone can turn invisible, after a while I'm either going to start tweaking their perception scores so they at least have a CHANCE of spotting them (that Skill Focus: Fly they have can easily become Perception) or give a few of the important boss monsters potions of See Invisibility, because the shank shank bleh game gets old after a while.
Really? So what else are you giving me to replace the 20,000 gp I spent on the ring of invisibility you just arbitrarily deprived me of?
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"Ring of Invisibility" is not code for "Can never be seen ever ever by anyone".
By that logic, having an enemy with DR the Fighter can't bypass or more HP than he can deal in a full attack is depriving him of his +5 sword. Both are equally silly, because sometimes that happens.
In both cases your item has still given you advantages (a sentry with a +20 Perception is still going to NOT see you more often than he does...and is completely s#!@ out of luck if you even bothered to put ranks in Stealth instead of hoping your item made you undetectable by anyone forever).
If you're a Rogue with even a +10 Stealth (so...ONE RANK) and the ring, you're gold (that's a take 10 of 40, something they only beat on a 20, for those tallying it up at home). If you're a Wizard who's rolling around with 14 Dex and a ring, or the spell, the guys might notice you if they roll above average. I don't see why not being undetectable is a big deal.
Investment should be respected, yes, but the mere act of you buying something does not make that thing a sacred relic that can never be overcome. Ditto any spell you cast. Neither of which defines your character.
As a GM, I want to have fun too. If all the monsters in the dungeon have too low of a Perception to see invisible party members, and everyone can turn invisible, after a while I'm either going to start tweaking their perception scores so they at least have a CHANCE of spotting them (that Skill Focus: Fly they have can easily become Perception) or give a few of the important boss monsters potions of See Invisibility, because the shank shank bleh game gets old after a while.
You could just add other obstacles. Stuff like Twigs, which might cause noise, dust, that might leave footprints. If the players do not avoid those, the villains see get easier checks.
Which is just a roundabout (and less rules supported) way of doing the same thing.
This thread sums up the main problem with pathfinder, and the main reason 5th Ed is so attractive. Luckily I don't think having +40 perception is anywhere as common as it appears on the threads.
Definitely don't make traps a thing with this character in the party. Just describe them finding the trap and moving on. It's a waste of time and a massive deflater of tension to have someone make repeated 2+ rolls. You definitely shouldn't be making character roll for things that are as easy for them as walking down the street. Put your creative energies instead on times when a trap isn't discoverable, or roll traps that are obvious but triggered by other creatures. You can still descibe the needle trap they see and disarm on the door handle, and the fire jets they plug - just don't waste time slowing down the game.
Incidentally a character focussing all their resources to inflate one stat or ability to auto success levels should not he encouraged, or rewarded In my opinion. Balanced reasonable characters will result in less hoop jumping to deliver a good challenging adventure. A character with Perception 20 is still great at perception, they just don't auto succeed.
One option is to sit down with the player and ask them is their a reason they felt the need to focus on this? Have they had experience where a vindictive DM has faced them against lethal traps with very high DCs - this could be a vicious cycle. Consider explaining that the exceptionally high stat boosted by equipment, feats and racial abilities is making you question the point of including these. Ask how they feel about that. Give them the option of retraining feats or selling/swapping the goggles. As even going from 2+ to a 6+ could make some traps at least worth using. I had a similarly conversation with a player in shattered star and it turned out very agreeably.
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This thread sums up the main problem with pathfinder, and the main reason 5th Ed is so attractive. Luckily I don't think having +40 perception is anywhere as common as it appears on the threads.
Definitely don't make traps a thing with this character in the party. Just describe them finding the trap and moving on. It's a waste of time and a massive deflater of tension to have someone make repeated 2+ rolls. You definitely shouldn't be making character roll for things that are as easy for them as walking down the street. Put your creative energies instead on times when a trap isn't discoverable, or roll traps that are obvious but triggered by other creatures. You can still descibe the needle trap they see and disarm on the door handle, and the fire jets they plug - just don't waste time slowing down the game.
Incidentally a character focussing all their resources to inflate one stat or ability to auto success levels should not he encouraged, or rewarded In my opinion. Balanced reasonable characters will result in less hoop jumping to deliver a good challenging adventure. A character with Perception 20 is still great at perception, they just don't auto succeed.
One option is to sit down with the player and ask them is their a reason they felt the need to focus on this? Have they had experience where a vindictive DM has faced them against lethal traps with very high DCs - this could be a vicious cycle. Consider explaining that the exceptionally high stat boosted by equipment, feats and racial abilities is making you question the point of including these. Ask how they feel about that. Give them the option of retraining feats or selling/swapping the goggles. As even going from 2+ to a 6+ could make some traps at least worth using. I had a similarly conversation with a player in shattered star and it turned out very agreeably.
I had a +30 by level 10. I had no intention of running into traps or hiding enemies. Many of them were invisible so it actually paid off. Mantis Assassins using invisibility to be specific.
Having a really high perception(insert other words as needed) does not translate to "not balanced" or "broken"