Ability Scores and Prerequisites for Feats


Rules Questions

51 to 100 of 139 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

Lorekeeper Paizo has claimed they don't do errata via FAQ. So if you are correct they will have to admit this is false.
A dev has also said they made the 24 hour limit to avoid people hotswapping magical items such as belts of strength.
If they do answer this the next question would be the purpose of temp scores if they do the exact same thiwas permanent scores.

The above assumes you are correct.

Personally I think that Sean's suggestion should be the rule, but I am sure that FAQ doesn't apply to scores. I do appreciate your help, but we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I believe that a stat is a number. As such, a feat or a prestige class is not a stat. Hence you cannot say that you qualify for it based on the FAQ.

Note also that the FAQ despite its length never says that temporary bonuses actually increase the ability score. Even though if that was their intention, it would have been easier to just say that rather than write this lengthy FAQ. Occam's Razor leads me to the conclusion that temporary bonuses do not increase the ability score.

FAQed for definite answer

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:

Lorekeeper Paizo has claimed they don't do errata via FAQ. So if you are correct they will have to admit this is false.

A dev has also said they made the 24 hour limit to avoid people hotswapping magical items such as belts of strength.
If they do answer this the next question would be the purpose of temp scores if they do the exact same thiwas permanent scores.

The above assumes you are correct.

Personally I think that Sean's suggestion should be the rule, but I am sure that FAQ doesn't apply to scores. I do appreciate your help, but we are going to have to agree to disagree.

They already create FAQs that change the rules. This is a thing that happens. There are tons of examples. This is one of those examples. There is even a term for it, faqratta.

The FAQ trumps a forum post. Especially one that came before it.

THE FAQ IS ABOUT ABILITY SCORES. It is in the title..
It has nothing to do with anything EXCEPT ability scores and their increases, both temporary and permanent.

Seriously, answer my question. What do you think it is about? What are you calling a 'bonus'? What do you believe gives you your carry capacity?

If you can't tell me how
"Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?"
somehow is not about ability scores... then I will be forced to believe you are simply trolling this thread.

And the answer to your question is... well, directly in the FAQ.
"A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."

There was once a difference, pre FAQ. Now, post FAQ, there is no difference as they affect everything the same way.

How about you answer my questions, both above and this one?
How can something affect everything one thing affects... and not affect everything it affects at the same time?
And, if they both do the same thing... how are they different but in name?

Scarab Sages

The Raven Black wrote:

I believe that a stat is a number. As such, a feat or a prestige class is not a stat. Hence you cannot say that you qualify for it based on the FAQ.

Note also that the FAQ despite its length never says that temporary bonuses actually increase the ability score. Even though if that was their intention, it would have been easier to just say that rather than write this lengthy FAQ. Occam's Razor leads me to the conclusion that temporary bonuses do not increase the ability score.

FAQed for definite answer

Except the examples given, such as carry capacity, state that carry capacity is modified. Carry capacity is given by your actual strength stat.

Also, it says that
"A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."

One of the stats that permanent ability score bonuses affect is your actual ability score. Which temporary did not, originally.

In fact, the only thing a permanent ability score bonus affects is your actual ability score. That's it. That's all it does. The rest is causality.

One of the stats that permanent int modifies, due to being a real increase, is skill points.
If a temp increase affects everything the same way a permanent increase does... well, then you get skill points too.
Which is not originally how it worked either. And, the only way it can achieve this is by being an actual increase to your ability scores.

Instead of being a +1 per two points to the things ability score modifies.

You have to remember, originally, temporary score bonuses did not apply to the ability score itself. Just as ability damages do not. It was a separate modifier.

The FAQ makes it clear it is no longer a separate modifier for temp bonuses.
That, despite originally being written as a definite rule, that it was really only a 'quick way' to perform an ability score change. And, as such, is only there to make the game go faster(quick build). Yet, in actuality, is not a definite rule. Since it is an actual change to the stat and thus modifies everything an actual stat change affects(rebuild), which is what a permanent ability score bonus does.

What the FAQ needed to state, to make sure it did not apply to EVERYTHING a permanent ability score affects is to say
'temporary applies to everything that permanent applies to(which, instead, it straight up says it does affect everything), except that it does not apply to HP, skill points, spell slot increases, spell casting stat for spell level purposes and feat prereqs...

The list goes on. These are all things that a simple +1 can not modify, but an actual increase to your score can.


Lorewalker wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Lorekeeper Paizo has claimed they don't do errata via FAQ. So if you are correct they will have to admit this is false.

A dev has also said they made the 24 hour limit to avoid people hotswapping magical items such as belts of strength.
If they do answer this the next question would be the purpose of temp scores if they do the exact same thiwas permanent scores.

The above assumes you are correct.

Personally I think that Sean's suggestion should be the rule, but I am sure that FAQ doesn't apply to scores. I do appreciate your help, but we are going to have to agree to disagree.

They already create FAQs that change the rules. This is a thing that happens. There are tons of examples. This is one of those examples. There is even a term for it, faqratta.

The FAQ trumps a forum post. Especially one that came before it.

THE FAQ IS ABOUT ABILITY SCORES. It is in the freakin title dude. I don't know how you can't understand this. It has nothing to do with anything EXCEPT ability scores and their increases, both temporary and permanent.

Seriously, answer my question. What do you think it is about? What are you calling a 'bonus'? What do you believe gives you your carry capacity?

If you can't tell me how
"Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?"
somehow is not about ability scores... then I will be forced to believe you are simply trolling this thread.

A bonus to me is the modifier(assuming it is positive) you add after you roll the dice. As an example a score of 16 has a +3 bonus, assuming nothing else is in play.

As for the strength score affecting the carrying capacity, that is explained in the FAQ by the following.

FAQ wrote:


A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.

That would apply to a carrying capacity, but feats and PrC's are not stats so there is really no conflict.

I also already said we should agree to disagree. If I was trolling I would just try to keep this going instead of agreeing to part ways with our opinions. If you still think I am a troll then feel free to not respond.

Also there is this:

Jason Bulmahn before the FAQ wrote:


Generally speaking, you need to permanently have a score, feat, or ability to meet the prerequisites of a feat or prestige class. In the case of a magic item that boosts an ability score, you need to be wearing the item full time for it to be considered a permanent bonus for this purpose. It is one of the few ways you could take a feat that you later do not meet the prereqs for.

Personally, I would say that have claws for a few rounds per day does not meet the prereqs for a feat that requires a claw attack. Just like being able to cast beast shape once per day would not grant you the prereqs. Note though that this is an off the cuff opinion. I would need to investigate further.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Paizo Publishing

FAQ you keep quoting wrote:


The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.

This line is claiming(implying) the FAQ was a clarification on intent, not a rules change.

So if it is a clarification then it is not a rules change.

So is Paizo being dishonest when they are implying it is a clarification because it definitely seems to go against a previous design rule, and directly against Jason's post.

PS: Once again I do not think either of us will convince the other at this point, and insinuating that I am a troll will only get most of our posts deleted by an admin so it's much better to either refrain from doing so or not reply.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:
A bonus to me is the modifier(assuming it is positive) you add after you roll the dice. As an example a score of 16 has a +3 bonus, assuming nothing else is in play.

This I think is our problem. You are working under an incorrect definition. A modifier is not a 'bonus'. A modifier is a modifier, which may be a bonus(if positive).

An ability score bonus has nothing to do with an ability score modifier.

The word bonus is used many times in Pathfinder to mean different things depending on the context.

An ability score bonus, by definition, applies to ability scores(permanent increase) and things the ability score applies to(temporary increase). But has nothing to do with the modifier except where an actual stat change has occurred.

As it is a 'bonus' to 'ability scores'. Not a 'positive' 'ability score' 'modifier'.

------------------Originally-----------------------
Now, originally, temporary ability score increase did not even increase ability scores, much less their modifiers. They were a separate stat that improved ability score based rolls. At a rate of +1 per two points.

Now, you can tell this is not an actual increase by the fact that I could have 13 INT and gain an INT temporary ability score bonus of +1 and it would provide me zero mechanical advantage. As it requires 2 points to provide a +1 bonus to 'skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability'.

If that +1 had been a permanent ability score bonus, my int would instead now be 14 and provide skill points.
-----------------Post FAQ-----------------------------
Under the new rules of temp changing every stat and roll that permanent does...

if I were to gain +1 INT temporary ability score bonus and I have an INT of 13... I would now have 14 INT as that is what a permanent ability score bonus provides. And temporary gives everything a permanent ability score bonus provides.
Thus, I gain skill points.

With your definition of 'ability score bonus' being only related to a modifier, it could NEVER change encumbrance. As that does not relate to ability score modifiers.
Except this is what ability score bonuses do.

---------------------------------------------------------edit
Oh another example!
If I were have 14 con. Then apply a +4 temporary ability score bonus...
Originally if I had taken 14 con damage, my character would be dead.

Post FAQ, I would not be as I would need to take 4 more con damage to die.

Again, another thing that an ability score modifier has nothing to do with, but actual ability scores do.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:
"Jason Bulmahn before the FAQ wrote:"

Read this carefully. Before the FAQ, as in, the FAQ is newer and trumps all things that come before it.

wraithstrike wrote:


This line is claiming(implying) the FAQ was a clarification on intent, not a rules change.

So if it is a clarification then it is not a rules change.

So is Paizo being dishonest when they are implying it is a clarification because it definitely seems to go against a previous design rule, and directly against Jason's post.

You can not say 'it is not intended to be a rules change' while it is specifically changing how the rules work.

They explained in the FAQ that the 'quick build' way that temporary was written is not how it actually works, it was put there as a way of speeding up the game. That, instead, all ability score increases are actually 'rebuild's. But the 'quick build' way is a good way to think of it, to achieve faster if not precise results. You 'precisely' gain all benefits of an increased ability score even when it is temporary.
They just didn't have room to say all that.

That is not dishonest in the slightest. But it DOES change a hard rule into a soft rule. Temporary now does all that permanent does, by the mere fact that the FAQ SPECIFICALLY says it does.

And, FAQS often enough go against previously stated by dev forum posts. That is okay as that is their point. To be the definite way to handle badly written or misunderstood rules in the game.

But, certainly, anything that comes before the FAQ is null and void where it disagrees with the FAQ.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Session ends.

GM: Alright, here's your XP.
Player: Sweet, I levelled. Let me see... Ah, that Bull's Strength spell is still active, I take Power Attack since right this minute I qualify! Lucky the fight didn't take one round more, or it would have run out.


Lorewalker wrote:
This I think is our problem. You are working under an incorrect definition. A modifier is not a 'bonus'. A modifier is a modifier, which may be a bonus(if positive).

That is what I said. A bonus is a positive modifier. A penalty is a negative modifier. What do you think I am saying?

I did say "assuming it is positive". What else does that mean other than a bonus is a positive modifier?

Let me put it another way. A modifier may be negative or positive.

If it is positive it is a bonus, and if it is negative then its a penalty.

That is basic stuff. Of course I know that. I can probably pull up old posts where I have explained this to others.

If you don't read that line I quoted as implying clarification then we don't read the same. What else does "The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bonus would affect" mean?

To me it means "Hey we really would have liked to explain this in detail when the book came out, but due to wordcount issues we couldn't do it. Now we are clearing it up for you."

So now you know that I understand modifiers. I just don't' see the FAQ as a rules change, and I see no contradiction with the book.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
This I think is our problem. You are working under an incorrect definition. A modifier is not a 'bonus'. A modifier is a modifier, which may be a bonus(if positive).

That is what I said. A bonus is a positive modifier. A penalty is a negative modifier. What do you think I am saying?

I did say "assuming it is positive". What else does that mean other than a bonus is a positive modifier?

Let me put it another way. A modifier may be negative or positive.

If it is positive it is a bonus, and if it is negative then its a penalty.

That is basic stuff. Of course I know that. I can probably pull up old posts where I have explained this to others.

If you don't read that line I quoted as implying clarification then we don't read the same. What else does "The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bonus would affect" mean?

To me it means "Hey we really would have liked to explain this in detail when the book came out, but due to wordcount issues we couldn't do it. Now we are clearing it up for you."

So now you know that I understand modifiers. I just don't' see the FAQ as a rules change, and I see no contradiction with the book.

Let's try to make this simple...

This is how it works according to the CRB. I will ignore the FAQ for this part.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Say I gain a temporary ability score bonus. This bonus is 2. That would would net me a +1 to things related to the ability score.

ability score bonus wrote:
For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability

<----Bonus, as in adds positively. Does not equal modifier. Otherwise the bonus, which adds a bonus... would be a positive ability score modifier which adds a positive ability score modifier.

Say my ability score is 14. After I gain this ability score bonus, my ability score is still 14.

To anything the ability score modifies and is listed in the Temporary Ability Score Bonus section, I would add my modifier, which is +2, and the +1 that my ability score bonus gives me.
So, +2(A.S. mod) and +1(A.S. bonus).

Not an A.S. modifier of +3.

If the effect that gives me the 2 ability score bonus lasts longer then 24 hours, my actual ability score increases.

ability score bonus wrote:
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.

I now have an ability score of 16 and gain all the perks of that.

This is due to a permanent ability score bonus. My modifier is now +3 and I no longer have a separate bonus for the ability score bonus.

Now, here, if you were correct and the ability score bonus was ONLY something that changed your ability score modifier... how can it change my actual ability score?
As a permanent ability score bonus is a 'bonus'. Which you say is only a positive modifier.

This very literally can not be correct, as your ability score modifier does not apply to encumbrance. And permanent ability score bonuses, per the CRB, do.


I already know how modifiers work. Seeing as how you have only been here a few months I am not surprised that you don't know this.

I also said temp bonuses don't actually change your score, which you just repeated back to me. That is why I said you can't get the feat. Your actual score never changed because the ability bonus was not kept for a long enough duration.

I said a positive modifier is a bonus. As an example your ability score modifier of +3 is also an ability bonus of +3.

Once again what else does "modifier(assuming it is positive) " mean?

I am really curious as to what exactly you think I am saying.

Don't give me a bunch of rules I already know. I want your interpretation of what I am saying.


You also never explained what "The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bonus would affect." meant to you.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:

I already know how modifiers work. Seeing as how you have only been here a few months I am not surprised that you don't know this.

I also said temp bonuses don't actually change your score, which you just repeated back to me. That is why I said you can't get the feat. Your actual score never changed because the ability bonus was not kept for a long enough duration.

I said a positive modifier is a bonus. As an example your ability score modifier of +3 is also an ability bonus of +3.

Once again what else does "modifier(assuming it is positive) " mean?

I am really curious as to what exactly you think I am saying.

Don't give me a bunch of rules I already know. I want your interpretation of what I am saying.

Yes, I have only been posting regularly for a relatively short time. But I have been a part of the Pathfinder community since it came out. Not that it matters. My gaming credentials have meaning to this conversation.

I am not explaining 'ability score modifiers'. I am explaining what an 'ability score bonus' is. That is a very specific term that has NOTHING to do with MODIFIERS. The only time I refer to ability score modifiers is where I am showing how they are not the same thing as ability score bonuses.
Read this paragraph again. And then again if you still believe I am talking about ability score modifiers. Because I am not. They are not the same thing, as is defined in the CRB.

Definitions follow. Find a place that I am incorrect, and cite me where I am incorrect and I will apologize for disagreeing on the point.

A 'bonus' in Pathfinder can be many things. It is not, by definition, only a positive modifier value.

List of bonuses and definition:

Bonus

Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

Types(non exhaustive)
Alchemical, Armor, Base Attack, Circumstance, Circumstance, Competence, Deflection, Dodge, Enhancement, Inherent, Insight, Luck, Morale, Natural Armor, Profane, Racial, Resistance, Sacred, Shield, Size and Trait.

An ability score modifier is the number calculated from an actual ability score, defined as being between -5 and +5.. though it may actually go higher. This is your modifier. Or sometimes shortened 'mod'. It may be a 'bonus' or a 'penalty' depending on its sign.

Ability Score Modifier Definition:
Determine Bonuses (or Penalties)
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren't die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you'll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.

An ability score bonus(temporary) is a value that acts as a sudo increase to your ability score. While not actually increasing the ability score, it does provide a +1 bonus, not to your ability score modifier, but to 'skills and statistics' listed with the ability score. (As per the CRB, I am leaving the FAQ out of this to make the definitions and distinctions as easy as possible.)

An ability score bonus(permanent) actually increases your ability score. (Once again, not your modifier directly) In all ways this acts as if your ability score is increased by the ability score bonus amount.

Notice, the last two, both of the ability score bonuses, do not ever mention ability score modifiers. They either give a bonus(not an 'ability score modifier', just an untyped bonus) to 'skills and stats'(but do not add to the ability score modifiers) or they apply directly to the ability score itself.


Once again I know how those rules work in a game. It is almost impossible to misapply them. I am asking for your interpretation of what I said. You keep reading more into things than what I am saying, like when you assumed I had a reason to read the rules a certain way. I really don't get attached to the result because if I read a rule and it annoys me enough I will just houserule it. I GM more than I play so I don't really have to worry about asking for permission too much.

I am not questing your gaming credentials. The point with my statement was that certain posters here are known to know the rules well and everyone knows they know basic stuff. I am one of them. <---That is why I cited your time here. I never said that was actually when you started gaming.

As an example I won't ever question Jiggy, Cheapy, Gauss, or Ashiel on how the casting of spells works. I know they know the rules.
We might not all agree on the more complex things all the time, but on basic things it is a pointless question.

PS: No apology is needed, if you are proven to be incorrect. Everyone is wrong sometimes.

PPS: So once again what do you think I was trying to say?

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:
You also never explained what "The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bonus would affect." meant to you.

It means exactly what it says. Let's break it down.

'The section in the glossary was very tight on space'
They always are tight on space. So this is not a surprise.

'and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect'

An ability score-related game effect...

let's list some.:

chance to hit... okay. You add your A.S. modifier to this.

HP... this you also, while not add directly, but do add HD * con mod.

Skill points... Yup, modifier involved here.

Encumbrance... No modifier involved here. This is related to your actual ability score.

negative HP till Death... No, this has nothing to do with modifiers. This is related only to your actual ability score.

how much drain/damage/penalty you can sustain to an ability before falling unconcious or dying... This, again has nothing to do with modifiers. This is related to actual ability scores.

So, we now know for sure that not all ability score related effects are modifier related.

'that an ability score bonus would affect.'

What does an ability score bonus affect? Well, since the lookup in the CRB is not exhaustive per the FAQ and it says that temp bonuses apply to all things permanent bonuses do... and permanent bonuses specifically apply to ability scores and treat your ability score as increased by the amount of ability score bonus...

We then know for sure that an ability score bonus would increase things like negative HP till death and encumbrance. Encumbrance is even listed as an example in the FAQ. Neither of those things are related to modifiers but only to the actual ability score. Nor are all able to simply have +1 added to it per 2 points and still make sense.

So, in conclusion, for the intents and purposes of any ability score-related game effect, your ability score is increased by the amount of the bonus given. Regardless of being temporary or permanent.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:

Once again I know how those rules work in a game. It is almost impossible to misapply them. I am asking for your interpretation of what I said. You keep reading more into things than what I am saying, like when you assumed I had a reason to read the rules a certain way. I really don't get attached to the result because if I read a rule and it annoys me enough I will just houserule it. I GM more than I play so I don't really have to worry about asking for permission too much.

I am not questing your gaming credentials. The point with my statement was that certain posters here are known to know the rules well and everyone knows they know basic stuff. I am one of them. <---That is why I cited your time here. I never said that was actually when you started gaming.

As an example I won't ever question Jiggy, Cheapy, Gauss, or Ashiel on how the casting of spells works. I know they know the rules.
We might not all agree on the more complex things all the time, but on basic things it is a pointless question.

PS: No apology is needed, if you are proven to be incorrect. Everyone is wrong sometimes.

PPS: So once again what do you think I was trying to say?

I think you said what you said. That an ability score bonus is an ability score modifier.

That would be an incorrect statement. Thus why I spent all the time I did listing from the book definitions that state this isn't so. Can not be so.

Also, I apologize. I did not realize you were just trying to give your credentials. Though, it was not needed. I've seen your name around the forums for the longest time.

I have no issue disagreeing with anyone, no matter their credentials, if I believe they are incorrect.


Lorewalker wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Once again I know how those rules work in a game. It is almost impossible to misapply them. I am asking for your interpretation of what I said. You keep reading more into things than what I am saying, like when you assumed I had a reason to read the rules a certain way. I really don't get attached to the result because if I read a rule and it annoys me enough I will just houserule it. I GM more than I play so I don't really have to worry about asking for permission too much.

I am not questing your gaming credentials. The point with my statement was that certain posters here are known to know the rules well and everyone knows they know basic stuff. I am one of them. <---That is why I cited your time here. I never said that was actually when you started gaming.

As an example I won't ever question Jiggy, Cheapy, Gauss, or Ashiel on how the casting of spells works. I know they know the rules.
We might not all agree on the more complex things all the time, but on basic things it is a pointless question.

PS: No apology is needed, if you are proven to be incorrect. Everyone is wrong sometimes.

PPS: So once again what do you think I was trying to say?

I think you said what you said. That an ability score bonus is an ability score modifier.

That would be an incorrect statement. Thus why I spent all the time I did listing from the book definitions that state this isn't so. Can not be so.

That is not what you asked, and that is not what I said.

Your question was--> What are you calling a 'bonus'?
My answer was --> "A bonus to me is the modifier(assuming it is positive) you add after you roll the dice"

I even clarified it with --> "A bonus is a positive modifier."


I asked you to repeat what you thought I said because sometimes people in the forums misunderstand the other person's intention. By repeating the speaker can say "yes" or "no" with varying degrees in order to correct the accurateness of the other person's interpretation.

Sovereign Court

If this was true, then a barbarian would need only 11 CON for Raging Vitality. I doubt that's intended, but I wouldn't really mind.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:


That is not what you asked, and that is not what I said.
Your question was--> What are you calling a 'bonus'?
My answer was --> "A bonus to me is the modifier(assuming it is positive) you add after you roll the dice"

I even clarified it with --> "A bonus is a positive modifier."

wraithstrike wrote:

It is completely different. A bonus is not a score. The FAQ makes no mention of both scores being the same. The problem is that people are assuming the terms score and bonus are interchangeable.

That is not what it says at all and the FAQ's only cover what they specifically cover. They call out "bonuses", which are not scores. You can affect the modifier(penalty or bonus) of an ability score without ever changing the score. Ability damage is one way to do it, since ability damage changes the bonus you get to use, but it never changes your actual ability score.

This is why I asked. Because of your insistence that the FAQ only relates to modifiers. Which it does not.

You were saying that the FAQ only relates to modifiers. In this case, positive ones.

The FAQ, on the other hand, specifically talks about 'ability score bonuses' affecting things that 'ability score modifiers' never affect.

Unless you mispoke, I do not see how I can read you explaining that a 'bonus' is an ability score modifier and that the FAQ only speaks about bonuses and not ability scores. And then somehow not get that it seems you are saying 'ability score bonuses' are 'ability score modifiers'. Since the FAQ is about ability score bonuses.


I will try to explain again. The FAQ is saying that

The title is "Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?"

The first line is that "Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do."

To me that is saying the bonus from a belt of giant strength affects stats such as to-hit, damage, carrying capacity and so on no matter if you have belt on for 2 minutes during which time the bonus is temporary, or if you have it one for 3 days. By that time ti would be permanent.

"The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score."

That is referring to a previous FAQ about temporary ability score bonuses.

"For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors."

This is giving more examples of things that are affected. In addition it brings up the carry capacity and how it is affected. The temporary bonus affects carrying capacity because it comes from a temporary ability score increase, which is referenced in the CRB. I worded the other way previously, but I know the bonus comes from the score.

The last thing that the FAQ says is

"A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."

That means exactly what it says. It affects the same stats and rolls no matter if the ability score bonus is temporary or permanent.

Unless I am misunderstanding you, you think the permanent and temporary ability scores have the exact same perks because of this FAQ.

I see it as a clarification on the CRB, but the temp score still is not allowed to qualify for a feat or a PrC.

Basically our line of contention IMO seems to be with the last line, and how much power it grants to temp scores.


lareman wrote:
If this was true, then a barbarian would need only 11 CON for Raging Vitality. I doubt that's intended, but I wouldn't really mind.

He would have to be raging at the time he leveled up. :)

J/K. I agree with you, and I hope the PDT puts a nail in this coffin.

Scarab Sages

A few comments then A few simple questions...
----------Comments----------------------------
1) The CRB never references temporary ability score bonuses applying to carry capacity. It can not, since temporary ability score bonuses, as per the CRB, are only +1s. Which are per two ability score bonus points.
Since temporary ability score bonuses do not raise the ability score, per the CRB.

2)An ability score bonus, when permanent, is an actual ability score increase. An ability score bonus, when temporary, is not an actual ability score increase. When temporary, it is only +1 to relevant things per two points of bonus. This is per the CRB.

3)I think I see another point we disagree on. You seem to read the first sentence to mean 'temporary ability modifier' when it says 'temporary ability bonus'. (I could be wrong in the assumption, but I bring it up so you can say yes or no, to better understand each others argument)

When it more appears they just left the word score out accidentally. This is made clear by the fact that this is the only place they forget to include 'score' when talking about 'temporary ability score bonuses'. The rules that are being talked about are 'ability score bonuses' which come in two flavors, 'temporary' and 'permanent'. There is no definition for a 'temporary ability bonus'. They even 'correct' themselves later in the last sentence, by including the word score.

----------Questions---------
1) What does a permanent ability score bonus do, directly? Hint: it only does one thing directly.

2) What is the difference between temporary ability score bonus and a permanent ability score bonus originally?

3) Can a +1 per two points of ability score bonus translate into something you can use to calculate carry capacity? Or contribute meaningfully to negative HP before death without halving the benefit?

4) Can a sentence say 'A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.' and then somehow the two not apply to all stats and rolls equally? Hint: one of your statistics is your ability score.


1. I agree, but the FAQ does reference that "Temporary Ability Score Increases" such as those from bull's strength does increase carrying capacity. That is what I was referring to and that is why my quote was from the FAQ, not the CRB.

2. I stated before that only a permanent ability score bonus leads to an actual increase. The increase from something such as bull's strength or having on a belt of giant strength are both temporary bonuses leading to a temporary score increase. The specific wording is that "Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses". Which is to say that the ability score does increase, but the bonus is temporary.

3. I know what it is. I just used the wrong words. I have correctly used " temporary ability score" in other places. Don't worry about the slippage. You keep trying to prove that I don't know how these simple rules work, which is why you are focused too much on the wrong area. I understand perfectly well that the " temporary ability score" is where the "adjusted modifer(my term) comes from.

----------------------------------questions from you----
1. I already answered this. It actually increases the ability score. Why are you asking me for info that I already gave?
I gave the quote from the CRB in my opening post. First post

2. I know what you are getting at, and I still don't think that temporarly ability scores affect your actual ability score. I have already said this is our point of contention. Are really reading what I write? If so why do I keep having to repeat myself?

3a. It is not the +1 per two point that translates into carrying capacity, but the temporary ability score increase. That is covered in the FAQ, which I also already explain.

3b. I don't really understand your 2nd question in this set. I am assuming you are asking about constitution damage. If so yes con damage will kill you.

4. If it is a stat or roll it should apply to the stats and rolls no matter if it is temporary or permanent, but that does not mean that they both give the exact same benefits outside of number. As an example, which I keep using---> The temp score will not qualify you for a feat or PrC.

PS: Please before you ask me any more questions before I have not already answered them.
I am not answering any more of these basic questions. You can just assume I don't know them if you wish. It gets old when I have given answers, and you ask me something I already said.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Lorewalker wrote:

They already create FAQs that change the rules. This is a thing that happens. There are tons of examples. This is one of those examples. There is even a term for it, faqratta.

Seriously, answer my question. What do you think it is about?

There is no example of a FAQ that alters a rule that doesn't say "this will be changed in future errata".

All other FAQ simply explain the rules text in the book with more words. In short, if you read the rules text and you think the FAQ changed the rule then you know you read the rules text incorrectly and came to an incorrect interpretation.

I think the FAQ on this simply says that all the rules for temporary bonuses influence are not limited to the lists of example things (I'd call them "quick and dirty") in the back.


James Risner wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

They already create FAQs that change the rules. This is a thing that happens. There are tons of examples. This is one of those examples. There is even a term for it, faqratta.

Seriously, answer my question. What do you think it is about?

There is no example of a FAQ that alters a rule that doesn't say "this will be changed in future errata".

All other FAQ simply explain the rules text in the book with more words. In short, if you read the rules text and you think the FAQ changed the rule then you know you read the rules text incorrectly and came to an incorrect interpretation.

I think the FAQ on this simply says that all the rules for temporary bonuses influence are not limited to the lists of example things (I'd call them "quick and dirty") in the back.

That is the point I was making before, but maybe not in this thread. If they decide to make an FAQ that goes directly against the rules in the book they will errata the book. I have seen them change their mind on FAQ's without changing the book, but in those cases the wording could be read either way. In this case the CRB notes an actual difference, so they would have said something about an errata. This is pretty much common knowledge for most people, or it should be.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:

----------------------------------questions from you----

1. I already answered this. It actually increases the ability score. Why are you asking me for info that I already gave?
I gave the quote from the CRB in my opening post. First post

2. I know what you are getting at, and I still don't think that temporarly ability scores affect your actual ability score. I have already said this is our point of contention. Are really reading what I write? If so why do I keep having to repeat myself?

3a. It is not the +1 per two point that translates into carrying capacity, but the temporary ability score increase. That is covered in the FAQ, which I also already explain.

3b. I don't really understand your 2nd question in this set. I am assuming you are asking about constitution damage. If so yes con damage will kill you.

4. If it is a stat or roll it should apply to the stats and rolls no matter if it is temporary or permanent, but that does not mean that they both give the exact same benefits outside of number. As an example, which I keep using---> The temp score will not qualify you for a feat or PrC.

The point of the questions are to have you go read the rules again, as I fear you may be only trying to remember them. As they are different than what you claim.

3a. The old style of +1 per two points would not have. This a deliberate change from the FAQ. As, the only increase the temporary ability score bonus adds is +1 per two points to relevant abilities. Not the actual ability modifier, mind you. It was a separate bonus. It did not add to the actual ability score.
Now, due to the FAQ, the actual temporary ability score bonus adds to the actual ability score whether it is permanent or not.

3b. Con adds to HP. Your con score also is how much HP you can go negative before your character dies.
Originally, since temporary ability score bonus did not apply to the ability score and instead gave +1 to relevant abilities per 2 points... if you have 12 CON and 2 temporary ability score bonus, you would die at -12.
I was asking do you think it was intended to add the ability score bonus bonus(yes, two bonuses, since the temporary ability score bonus adds a bonus) to the negative HP you have till you die, since that is the only bonus that temporary ability score bonuses gave per the text?

4. Numbers are the benefit. The difference between the number 12 and 13 in the Strength ability score are what disallows or allows you to take the Power Attack feat. Not some other quality. This is why originally temporary ability score bonuses did not add to your actual ability score. So that by its nature permanent Could allow you to qualify for a feat and temporary could not. But if they share the same nature, as in, add to all the same things.. well, you can qualify. By the mere fact that your ability score is actually increased.

If your con score is 12, but due to a temporary ability increase it is now 14... for all intents and purposes it is now 14. Just as if it were permanent. For all things.
This is what the FAQ makes clear.

You are adding an extra distinction between the two that the FAQ does not.
What you seem to be saying 'for all intents and purposes the score is now 14... except for exceptions I choose'.
The text gives none of the exceptions you are claiming.
Reasonable though they are.

I do not disagree that the change should not have allowed what it does. Let me make that clear. But it literally does, per its wording.

Scarab Sages

James Risner wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

They already create FAQs that change the rules. This is a thing that happens. There are tons of examples. This is one of those examples. There is even a term for it, faqratta.

Seriously, answer my question. What do you think it is about?

There is no example of a FAQ that alters a rule that doesn't say "this will be changed in future errata".

All other FAQ simply explain the rules text in the book with more words. In short, if you read the rules text and you think the FAQ changed the rule then you know you read the rules text incorrectly and came to an incorrect interpretation.

I think the FAQ on this simply says that all the rules for temporary bonuses influence are not limited to the lists of example things (I'd call them "quick and dirty") in the back.

You don't have to guess what it says.

"A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."

That can not be more clear. They both affect all the same things. Being able to meet feat prereqs is a thing that permanent affects... if they both affect the same things... then they both affect it.

Now, on to you saying they never post a FAQ change without an errata?
How about their change to Intelligence.
3 intelligence gives sentience in Pathfinder. Per the CRB.

There is a FAQ blog, which does not include an errata or any words saying there will be, that changes that basic fact for Animals. (and, later, a forum post that includes Plants with it). For Pathfinder, if you are an animal and have any amount of intelligence, 50 even, you are still not sentient. This is contrary to the CRB definition of Intelligence.

That is one example. I could find more for you, if you wish. But one should be enough to counter your belief that 'There is no example of a FAQ that alters a rule that doesn't say "this will be changed in future errata".'

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Lorewalker wrote:

"A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."

That can not be more clear.

How about their change to Intelligence.
3 intelligence gives sentience in Pathfinder. Per the CRB.

It is clearly not as clear as you say.

"A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."

and

"Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability"

These two rules statements are not incompatible. Temporary bonuses don't increase scores, but will change all things as if it was increased. Another way to look at this is Strong Jaw. It doesn't increase the size like Enlarge Person does. It is just treated as if it had increased. Same for Temporary Bonuses. Would you think Strong Jaw would trigger if the opponent had something that cared about being hit by a Huge weapon? No.

This the Animal Blog?

This doesn't change any rules in the CRB or Bestiary. If you think this changes a rule, you are reading that rule incorrectly.

They made the FAQ for people who read the rule incorrectly. Can you point out what line you might be reading incorrectly, so I can demonstrate to you where the disconnect is?

So I reiterate my statement, no FAQ without "changed in errata" has ever changed a rule.

Scarab Sages

James Risner wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

"A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."

That can not be more clear.

How about their change to Intelligence.
3 intelligence gives sentience in Pathfinder. Per the CRB.

It is clearly not as clear as you say.

"A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."

and

"Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability"

These two rules statements are not incompatible. Temporary bonuses don't increase scores, but will change all things as if it was increased. Another way to look at this is Strong Jaw. It doesn't increase the size like Enlarge Person does. It is just treated as if it had increased. Same for Temporary Bonuses. Would you think Strong Jaw would trigger if the opponent had something that cared about being hit by a Huge weapon? No.

This the Animal Blog?

This doesn't change any rules in the CRB or Bestiary. If you think this changes a rule, you are reading that rule incorrectly.

They made the FAQ for people who read the rule incorrectly. Can you point out what line you might be reading incorrectly, so I can demonstrate to you where the disconnect is?

So I reiterate my statement, no FAQ without "changed in errata" has ever changed a rule.

Then, please, tell me how +1 per 2 points can change encumbrance? By the book the only thing a temporary ability score did was add +1 per 2 points to certain listed abilities. It did not get added to to the ability score, nor did it even 'sort of but not quite' get added.

The difference is Strong Jaw says what it does, it says it increase damage like a size increase.
The CRB also says what Temporary Ability Score Bonuses do... they only add +1 per 2 points to relevant skills and stats. Of which encumbrance is neither one listed nor would the +1 per 2 points be relevant to.
Anything else you can try to say it does... is not in the text.

The FAQ changes this by saying that the temporary ability score adds to things beyond the scope of what +1 per 2 points can manage. It then specifically says it adds to all things the way permanent ability scores bonuses do.
Permanent ability scores only add to one thing. The relevant ability score itself. Nothing else. The rest of the benefit is just the natural course of having a higher stat.

Also... what is the difference between an actual increase and, as you say, something changing all things as if it were increased? One of things that changes with an actual increase is meeting feat prereqs... same with encumbrance... and if something changes all things, of which feat prereqs is one of those things, as if it were an increase... so it would change whether or not you meet a feat prereq.

Since a temporary ability score changes all things just as permanent ability scores do.

When someone says 'this new piece of money, in all ways, functions like an american dollar' you'd expect to be able to go to the store and buy something with it as if it were a dollar.
Would you expect, then, to only be able to purchase some things with that money but not others? Even though those other things could be purchased with american dollars?

----- Also ----

How about this from the CRB?
"Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2.
Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3."

Now, it is true the blog was, for the most part, written into Ultimate Campaign a couple years later. But that does not change the fact that it was a new rule that was different then the old rule and not something existing in the books before and was not noted as errata.

The rule was not read incorrectly. At least in regard to sentience, being above animal-instinct. Some did believe it allowed speech... but that was never in the text. It said that animal-instinct intelligence was 1 or 2. Just as a human with 3 intelligence is sentient... so was any other creature. By the rules in the book.
Until the blog post.

Oddly enough even Ultimate Campaign is at odds with this as it lists paladin bonded mounts as sentient.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You're saying that creatures with an Intelligence of 6+ aren't sentient? Because that's the minimum for a bonded mount.


I wish someone had looked up the word 'sentient' before writing that particular blog post.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Lorewalker wrote:
Then, please, tell me how +1 per 2 points can change encumbrance? By the book the only thing a temporary ability score did was add +1 per 2 points to certain listed abilities.

That. That right there. That is where you are wrong.

Those enumerated lists were not rules.

Never intended to be rules.

And are currently not rules.

They are reminders.

They tell you generally what each stat typically does.

The actual rule is the score is left as is, but is treated as if it were higher. If you accept this notion, then all the complexities cease to exist.

Process things as if the score were higher, but don't raise the score. Don't grant additional spell slots. Doesn't work for pre-reqs. Would work for "stat uses per day" but if your uses would remain so when it lowers you'd still be out even if it raised again, use for damage rolls, use for save DC.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Chemlak wrote:
You're saying that creatures with an Intelligence of 6+ aren't sentient? Because that's the minimum for a bonded mount.

How about this. Rules wise, what difference would it make? There is no rule to handle an Animal (typically Int 1 or 2) having their Int raised. There is no rule that the type changes until high level Paladin makes them Outsiders and Magical Beasts.

If they are sentient, what rules help you?

Ian Bell wrote:
I wish someone had looked up the word 'sentient' before writing that particular blog post.

They only reference it for the Awaken spell. The blog doesn't touch on Int 6 Mount's being sentient or not.


Yeah it's used incorrectly in the spell as well. Well, partly. Fine for trees, but animals are already sentient.


Lorewalker wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

----------------------------------questions from you----

1. I already answered this. It actually increases the ability score. Why are you asking me for info that I already gave?
I gave the quote from the CRB in my opening post. First post

2. I know what you are getting at, and I still don't think that temporarly ability scores affect your actual ability score. I have already said this is our point of contention. Are really reading what I write? If so why do I keep having to repeat myself?

3a. It is not the +1 per two point that translates into carrying capacity, but the temporary ability score increase. That is covered in the FAQ, which I also already explain.

3b. I don't really understand your 2nd question in this set. I am assuming you are asking about constitution damage. If so yes con damage will kill you.

4. If it is a stat or roll it should apply to the stats and rolls no matter if it is temporary or permanent, but that does not mean that they both give the exact same benefits outside of number. As an example, which I keep using---> The temp score will not qualify you for a feat or PrC.

The point of the questions are to have you go read the rules again, as I fear you may be only trying to remember them. As they are different than what you claim.

3a. The old style of +1 per two points would not have. This a deliberate change from the FAQ. As, the only increase the temporary ability score bonus adds is +1 per two points to relevant abilities. Not the actual ability modifier, mind you. It was a separate bonus. It did not add to the actual ability score.
Now, due to the FAQ, the actual temporary ability score bonus adds to the actual ability score whether it is permanent or not.

3b. Con adds to HP. Your con score also is how much HP you can go negative before your character dies.
Originally, since temporary ability score bonus did not apply to the ability score and instead gave +1 to relevant abilities per 2 points... if you have 12 CON and 2...

You are just going to have to accept that we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Repeating rules to me that I know, and that you are misunderstanding is not going to change anything.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

wraithstrike wrote:
Repeating rules to me that I know, and that you are misunderstanding is not going to change anything.

+1

Scarab Sages

James Risner wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Then, please, tell me how +1 per 2 points can change encumbrance? By the book the only thing a temporary ability score did was add +1 per 2 points to certain listed abilities.

That. That right there. That is where you are wrong.

Those enumerated lists were not rules.

Never intended to be rules.

And are currently not rules.

They are reminders.

They tell you generally what each stat typically does.

The actual rule is the score is left as is, but is treated as if it were higher. If you accept this notion, then all the complexities cease to exist.

Process things as if the score were higher, but don't raise the score. Don't grant additional spell slots. Doesn't work for pre-reqs. Would work for "stat uses per day" but if your uses would remain so when it lowers you'd still be out even if it raised again, use for damage rolls, use for save DC.

The enumerated lists are meaningless to my point here.

It is the part just before the list that matters... that part tells you what the effect of your temporary ability score bonus is.

Okay... please read this carefully...

Temporary ability score definition:
"Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."

This is the rule. Please cite me from the CRB where it says temporary ability score bonuses do something other than what they are defined as doing from my citing.

Notice how this only gives a bonus to skills and statistics(we can debate on intent of exhaustiveness... but that is pointless) that are relevant to the ability score. The bonus is specifically a bonus of +1 per two points of ability score bonus.

Example:
I have 13 con. I gain 1 temporary ability score bonus.

--Per the CRB I gain zero advantage. As just like ability score damage, it does nothing unless it comes in at least 2. My con total is 13 for all intents and purposes.

--Per the FAQ, though, I would gain an amount of HP in the amount of HD * (my new con mod - my original con mod). As my ability score would be treated as higher just as if it were a permanent ability score bonus. For all intents and purposes my con is now 14.

These are two totally different systems. As written in the CRB, a temporary ability score bonus does something completely different than a permanent ability score bonus.

Where a permanent ability score bonus adds to your ability score and thus would change your modifier... temporary ability score bonuses added to things that your modifier added to. But not to the ability score or modifier, just as ability damage does not subtract from your ability score.

Scarab Sages

James Risner wrote:
Chemlak wrote:
You're saying that creatures with an Intelligence of 6+ aren't sentient? Because that's the minimum for a bonded mount.

How about this. Rules wise, what difference would it make? There is no rule to handle an Animal (typically Int 1 or 2) having their Int raised. There is no rule that the type changes until high level Paladin makes them Outsiders and Magical Beasts.

If they are sentient, what rules help you?

Ian Bell wrote:
I wish someone had looked up the word 'sentient' before writing that particular blog post.

They only reference it for the Awaken spell. The blog doesn't touch on Int 6 Mount's being sentient or not.

Rules that help... how about any rule related to how you may deal with an intelligent creature?

Also... the paladin bonded mount never actually changes type. They work like familiars at level 11 in that they are counted as magical beasts for targeting. And, also gain the celestial simple template. Which does not change their type to outsider.

Relevant quotes from the blog on how to handle a 6 int animal...

"The Handle Animal skill functions similarly no matter how intelligent an animal becomes. A character must still make Handle Animal checks to train his animal and get him to perform the appropriate tasks. A GM should, however, make exceptions in the case of how such an intelligent animal might react in absence of instructions."

No matter how high their intelligence score, they do not have their own desires and feelings. In essence... no mater the INT score, they are not sentient. And will only respond to commands... unless GM stipulate extenuating circumstances happen.

"The spell awaken changes much of this, however, since the spell is specifically designed to raise a creature up to sentience."

This one, along with other text in the blog, mean that without a spell like awaken, animals never gain sentience.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Lorewalker wrote:
Notice how this only gives a bonus to skills and statistics

Notice how you and others didn't get that the stat didn't increase but is treated as increasing. Paizo noticed. They wrote a FAQ for you. One saying it does everything a permanent increase does.

Life is now good. Well, it would be better if you could reconcile why the rules haven't changed and both the core rule book and the FAQ are saying the same thing.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Lorewalker wrote:

No matter how high their intelligence score, they do not have their own desires and feelings.

This one, along with other text in the blog, mean that without a spell like awaken, animals never gain sentience.

Remember this is a game, not reality. Game mechanics win over "realistic" ascetics. Raising your animal to 10 Intelligence doesn't make it a Cohort. It is still mechanically an Animal that you need to use Handle Animal checks.

Scarab Sages

James Risner wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Notice how this only gives a bonus to skills and statistics

Notice how you and others didn't get that the stat didn't increase but is treated as increasing. Paizo noticed. They wrote a FAQ for you. One saying it does everything a permanent increase does.

Life is now good. Well, it would be better if you could reconcile why the rules haven't changed and both the core rule book and the FAQ are saying the same thing.

Except this isn't what the CRB said. Simply put. The rule written is the rule written... and the FAQ says the intent was something different then the rule written.

I accept this. You do not seem to be able to recognize the rule was written differently than the FAQ suggests.

Unless you believe that ability score damage applies to all things as ability score drain? Because the two pairs of systems are written nearly exactly the same in how they function in the CRB. Just one is positive the other negative.

The thing is, as I said earlier, if a 'not quite increase' and an increase apply to all the same things... then there is nothing in the CRB or FAQ to state that I can not meet prereqs. Or that temporary ability score bonuses to INT give skill points. As those are things permanent ability score bonuses apply to and temporary ability score bonuses apply to all things permanent ones do. Per the FAQ.

And the whole point to this arguement is....
Does a temporary ability score bonus apply to prereqs for feats?

Scarab Sages

James Risner wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

No matter how high their intelligence score, they do not have their own desires and feelings.

This one, along with other text in the blog, mean that without a spell like awaken, animals never gain sentience.
Remember this is a game, not reality. Game mechanics win over "realistic" ascetics. Raising your animal to 10 Intelligence doesn't make it a Cohort. It is still mechanically an Animal that you need to use Handle Animal checks.

Yes... I'm not disagreeing with any of what you said here. Other than every other creature type can gain 3 int and be sentient, so it is odd that animals are different. I also did not say they should no longer be animals.

I even agree with the reason why they made the change. I am not here to argue about what animals can and can not do in Pathfinder. It was merely an example of a change in a rule without being an errata.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Lorewalker wrote:
I accept this. You do not seem to be able to recognize the rule was written differently than the FAQ suggests.

No, I don't accept that you are someone who can dictate the meaning of some words. We differ. I accept that you don't get the same interpretation as I do or the same as the author of the FAQ.

Can you accept that there is another interpretation? Can we agree to disagree?

Lorewalker wrote:
I even agree with the reason why they made the change. I am not here to argue about what animals can and can not do in Pathfinder. It was merely an example of a change in a rule without being an errata.

This is another example of a different interpretation. I don't see a change in the rules. I see missing rules and the FAQ guides in a realm of no rule to handle Animals with more intelligence.

Scarab Sages

James Risner wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
I accept this. You do not seem to be able to recognize the rule was written differently than the FAQ suggests.

No, I don't accept that you are someone who can dictate the meaning of some words. We differ. I accept that you don't get the same interpretation as I do or the same as the author of the FAQ.

Can you accept that there is another interpretation? Can we agree to disagree?

I will agree to disagree if you can say this line,

'For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.'

says that temporary ability score bonuses apply to all things permanent ability score bonuses do. And that it says if I have 13 con, according to this rule here(the only relevant rule that states what a temporary ability score bonuses does), if I gain 1 con temporary ability score bonus that I would gain HP.

And, that this line,

'For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.'

means that ability score damage applies to all things ability score drain does.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No, because that's not what James or wraithstrike are saying.

Here's what they're saying:

A temporary bonus to an ability score increases all skills and statistics as if the ability score had increased. But it actually hasn't, because it's not a permanent ability score modifier (which definitively says that it actually increases the ability score). So the character with 13 Con who gets +1 temporary Con from some as-yet-unwritten item or ability (because all of them increase in increments of +2), is treated as though he has a Con of 14, for hp, for fort saves, for Con checks, whatever. But the character does not actually have a Con of 14. It's 13 with a +1 temporary that makes it behave like 14.

Likewise, and it's very clearly covered here, ability damage doesn't reduce the ability score, while ability drain does. So a Str 15 character with power attack and 6 points of Str damage can still use power attack.

The conclusion here is that it is not possible for a Str 9 character under the effect of Bull's Strength to select power attack as a feat, because his Str score is 9. It just happens to behave like a 13 right now. It's not actually 13, though, which it would be after 24 hours of wearing a belt of giant strength +4.

Space in the CRB was tight as all hell. If the designers could have completely cut the verbiage about permanent ability score bonuses (which they could do if temporary bonuses behave in all ways like an actual bonus), they would have. But for some reason they felt it necessary to tell us that 1) temporary ability bonuses modify all skill and statistics as if the ability score were increased, and 2) that a permanent ability score bonus is an actual change in the ability score. The clear implication being that a temporary score isn't an actual score, so when a feat's prerequisites require you to check your score, is the answer your actual score, or just the one you happen to have right now from a temporary effect?


Chemlak wrote:
accurate reading of what I was trying to explain

Thanks

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

wraithstrike wrote:
Chemlak wrote:
accurate reading of what I was trying to explain
Thanks

+1


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Risner wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Chemlak wrote:
accurate reading of what I was trying to explain
Thanks
+1

*double brofist*

51 to 100 of 139 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Ability Scores and Prerequisites for Feats All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.