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According to the feat section:
Prerequisites:
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
According to the Ability Score section in the CRB we have two quotes.
Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
The second quote makes it sound like ability scores increase with a duration of longer than 24 hours are the only way to really increase you score, but the first ability score quote seems to go against that.
Here is my main FAQ question---> Can you gain a feat with only a temporary increase to your ability score?
Second Question: If the answer is yes then what is the difference between a permanent increase and a temporary one with regard to mechanical benefits?
PS: This question is due to this thread
PS2: I know you(PDT) only like one FAQ question per post so I am more concerned with the first question.
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Answer 1: By technicality of the rules, NO. Home brew campaign. Your choice.
Answer 2: Temporary bonuses are easier to remove mid-combat. Dispel Magic on a Bull's Strength, for instance. Bye-bye Power Attack and all subsequent stringed feats.
Remember, if the player looses the requirements for the feat, the feat turns off. That can suck for the Dex based rogue, or the Str based fighter. This is under Prerequisites for feats.
FAQ'ed for finality.
But no, temporary bonuses do not grant access to feats, etc. Temporary bonuses do not actually increase ability scores, as you noted in the other thread.
If this does get FAQ'd it'd be nice if the answer also covered the use of other "temporary" prereqs, like brawlers having TWF only while flurrying---which SKR said is enough to qualify for feats that have TWF as a prereq (though they'll only function during a flurry) but that's not official yet. And whether having flight available for part of every day, which suffices to put ranks in Fly, also suffices to get Flyby Attack and Wingover (some developer opined No, but that's not official yet either). And, um... what other classes of cases are there?
Just in case the PDT reads down the thread this far :)
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having the ability to rage qualify for str or con based feats.
having the mutagen ability to using it to qualify for str, dex or con based feats.
Having wildshape to qualify for str or dex based feats and form based feats.
having spells qualify you for stat based feats.
For me, permanent scores should really only be used for things that are calculated on a per day bases. Like channel energy uses, rage or bardic performance rounds, bonus spells. I'm fine allowing temporary things to qualify for feats. If you want a feat that only works sometime, go ahead.
What about in the opposite direction? Does Ability Damage stop you from using a feat? Not as far as I know. Drain would though.
Something I've run into just recently. Character with 8 strength uses Bull's Strength to get the +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, then for whatever reason, takes ~10 points of Strength Damage. More than enough to sink his normal score but not his enhanced score. Does he fall unconscious?
Ability damaged does not reduce your score only drain does so you can still power attack.
If that came into debate it would need its own post because devs really don't like more than one FAQ in the same thread.
Temporary bonuses do not actually increase ability scores, as you noted in the other thread.
Where is this written?
If I have an enhancement bonus to my AC it actually increases my AC. If I have an enhancement bonus to my strength, it actually increases my strength.
Temporary bonuses do not actually increase ability scores, as you noted in the other thread.Where is this written?
If I have an enhancement bonus to my AC it actually increases my AC. If I have an enhancement bonus to my strength, it actually increases my strength.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
This is after the section saying what temporary bonuses do, which is to say, they do not *actually* increase the score.
Temporary bonuses do not actually increase ability scores, as you noted in the other thread.Where is this written?
If I have an enhancement bonus to my AC it actually increases my AC. If I have an enhancement bonus to my strength, it actually increases my strength.
This is after the section saying what temporary bonuses do, which is to say, they do not *actually* increase the score.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Thank you.
Pretty sure that is invalidated by the FAQ, but at least I get why the confusion now.
dragonhunterq : Pretty much. The FAQ says there really isn't any difference between Permanent and Temporary Bonuses.
"Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do." "A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does." Not just rolls as some say but stats too. Both feats and ability scores appear in a stat block...
The FAQ is about bonuses. I am asking about the score.
They are two different things. As an example ability damage applies a penalty to your bonus, but your score does not change.
The FAQ is about bonuses. I am asking about the score.
They are two different things. As an example ability damage applies a penalty to your bonus, but your score does not change.
Note the quotes though. It affects rolls AND stats.
Secondly, isn't a +4 enhancement bonus from a spell a bonus? And what's the bonus to? The score. And it says that temp bonus should affect the same things as permanent. And a permanent bonus modifies the score for feat prerequisites... So I fail to see how the FAQ doesn't apply.
That does not contradict the notion that temporary bonuses don't qualify you for feat prerequisites.
"Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do." and "A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does." seem to contradict that. Do you think feat prerequisites aren't "relating to that ability score"? Because the FAQ says "anything" related treats Temporary and Permanent changes the same.
In explaining the FAQ question, they made general statements on Temporary and Permanent scores. The reason they made those general statements doesn't alter what they said.
It is completely different. A bonus is not a score. The FAQ makes no mention of both scores being the same. The problem is that people are assuming the terms score and bonus are interchangeable.
Another case : having Awareness thanks to your familiar being close. General consensus on the boards is that it is enough to fulfill PrC's requirements
This is interesting. I just noticed the familiar has to be within a certain distance. I always thought that the caster always had access to the feat as long as he had a familiar.
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Another case : having Awareness thanks to your familiar being close. General consensus on the boards is that it is enough to fulfill PrC's requirementsThis is interesting. I just noticed the familiar has to be within a certain distance. I always thought that the caster always had access to the feat as long as he had a familiar.
After 24 hours of snuggling with your pet frog, you'd have a permanent Alertness feat.
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It is completely different. A bonus is not a score. The FAQ makes no mention of both scores being the same. The problem is that people are assuming the terms score and bonus are interchangeable.
I'm not sure that is what I am asserting. I'm just saying that the FAQ means that there is no meaningful difference between permanent and temporary effects. They should be treated the same no matter what the terminology.
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It is completely different. A bonus is not a score. The FAQ makes no mention of both scores being the same. The problem is that people are assuming the terms score and bonus are interchangeable.I'm not sure that is what I am asserting. I'm just saying that the FAQ means that there is no meaningful difference between permanent and temporary effects. They should be treated the same no matter what the terminology.
The whole point of the terminology is that there is a difference.
The difference is manifest in several ways, including the fact that temporary INT does not give skills but permanent INT does.There is a difference between temporary and permanent ability scores. The terminology existing is proof enough that it was intended and the fact that the rules outright name differences proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Unfortunately that FAQ does make things murky. It is only supposed to be mean that the list given in Temporary Ability Score Bonuses is not exhaustive, but it is not supposed to include what Permanent Ability Score bonuses do. This can be understood from the reason why the FAQ was written, as the FAQ describes. It does not say that Permanent bonuses are no longer relevant, it says, basically, they did not have enough room to say all the things temporary bonuses should augment.
As is written, there is a strong argument for Temp bonuses = Perm bonuses. That would mean any INT increase that puts you at an even number, even 1 round ones, would get you skills points.
But I strongly suggest no one play that way.
It is better to allow temp bonuses to add to all rolls and effects, but not to Feat prereqs, spell slots, skill points... and probably a couple other things I am forgetting at the moment.
Unfortunately, for PFS though, we do not get a choice. Temp INT bonuses DO lead to skill points.
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There is not actually, by RAW, any difference between temporary/permanent feats or abilities though. Oddly enough, they forgot to write a definition for every edge case. :p
There is some talk and discussion among the DEV ranks, but no definitive answer that I am aware of.
It is completely different. A bonus is not a score. The FAQ makes no mention of both scores being the same. The problem is that people are assuming the terms score and bonus are interchangeable.I'm not sure that is what I am asserting. I'm just saying that the FAQ means that there is no meaningful difference between permanent and temporary effects. They should be treated the same no matter what the terminology.
That is not what it says at all and the FAQ's only cover what they specifically cover. They call out "bonuses", which are not scores. You can affect the modifier(penalty or bonus) of an ability score without ever changing the score. Ability damage is one way to do it, since ability damage changes the bonus you get to use, but it never changes your actual ability score.
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It is completely different. A bonus is not a score. The FAQ makes no mention of both scores being the same. The problem is that people are assuming the terms score and bonus are interchangeable.I'm not sure that is what I am asserting. I'm just saying that the FAQ means that there is no meaningful difference between permanent and temporary effects. They should be treated the same no matter what the terminology.
That is not what it says at all and the FAQ's only cover what they specifically cover. They call out "bonuses", which are not scores. You can affect the modifier(penalty or bonus) of an ability score without ever changing the score. Ability damage is one way to do it, since ability damage changes the bonus you get to use, but it never changes your actual ability score.
This is splitting hairs that don't even exist.
The FAQ is called...'Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?'
Which clearly does, as you say, cover what it specifically covers. Ability Score Increases. Which is what a Temporary Ability Bonus is.
Bonuses are not related directly to modifier. Neither are penalties. Ability score penalties, though, are there own animal and I will leave them alone in this thread. Other than to say AS Penalties literally do not decrease your ability score.
Bonuses come in all sorts of flavors. But, we will talk about Temporary and Permanent ability score bonuses.
"Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."
v--- Used to be true ---v
Ability Score Bonuses actually increase your ability scores. But only if they are permanent. This is impossible to refute as the text literally says it.
v--- Is true now ---v
But that was how it used to work. The FAQ changes it so that Temporary = Permanent.
I would suggest going back and rereading the whole Ability Score Bonus section of the CRB again so you can see for yourself what I mean. Then reread the FAQ.
Nowhere in the text do they mention modifiers. Only the ability score itself.
I can understand the confusion though, since modifiers are also called Bonuses(if positive) or Penalties(if negative). But that is not the only case in which something is a bonus or penalty.
Now... interesting enough. Temporary ability bonuses used to work just like penalties. At +1 per two points. Which did get added any place the modifier went. But the FAQ removes that by saying it effects things like carry capacity.
It is completely different. A bonus is not a score. The FAQ makes no mention of both scores being the same. The problem is that people are assuming the terms score and bonus are interchangeable.I'm not sure that is what I am asserting. I'm just saying that the FAQ means that there is no meaningful difference between permanent and temporary effects. They should be treated the same no matter what the terminology.
That is not what it says at all and the FAQ's only cover what they specifically cover. They call out "bonuses", which are not scores. You can affect the modifier(penalty or bonus) of an ability score without ever changing the score. Ability damage is one way to do it, since ability damage changes the bonus you get to use, but it never changes your actual ability score.
This is splitting hairs that don't even exist.
The FAQ is called...'Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?'
Which clearly does, as you say, cover what it specifically covers. Ability Score Increases. Which is what a Temporary Ability Bonus is.
Bonuses are not related directly to modifier. Neither are penalties. Ability score penalties, though, are there own animal and I will leave them alone in this thread. Other than to say AS Penalties literally do not decrease your ability score.
Bonuses come in all sorts of flavors. But, we will talk about Temporary and Permanent ability score bonuses.
"Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."
v--- Used to be true ---v
Ability Score Bonuses actually increase your ability scores. But only if they are permanent. This is impossible to refute as the...
Actually it is not splitting hairs. I just showed you how the rules can have two people with the same score, but different modifiers.
It is also not splitting hairs because the dev team said an FAQ only applies to the specific question asked. That FAQ is on bonuses. My question is on scores, which I have shown to be a different stat than bonuses.
Also the FAQ can not replace the book rules without errata. So far I have seen no errata. The FAQ explains the intention of the book rules.
I have seen nothing in that FAQ that says temp scores and permanent scores are the same.
If so show me the quote.
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Statement 1)
Actually it is not splitting hairs. I just showed you how the rules can have two people with the same score, but different modifiers.It is also not splitting hairs because the dev team said an FAQ only applies to the specific question asked. That FAQ is on bonuses. My question is on scores, which I have shown to be a different stat than bonuses.
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Statment 2)
Also the FAQ can not replace the book rules without errata. So far I have seen no errata. The FAQ explains the intention of the book rules.I have seen nothing in that FAQ that says temp scores and permanent scores are the same.
If so show me the quote.
Answer 1)
You did not actually show anything of the kind. Even ability score penalties do not modify the modifier, it only adds a modifier that goes along with the Ability Score modifier. You can think of it as reducing your modifier... but that is not what the text says it does.Example.
I have a strength penalty of 2. That means I have a -1 penalty for strength based checks. I have 18 strength and 1 BAB... I attack with a melee weapon.
+1 for BAB, +4 for strength modifier bonus, -1 for strength penalty penalty.(the second penalty is on purpose, the ability penalty(strength) itself imposes a penalty on strength based rolls)
NOT
+1 for BAB, +3 for strength
I know of nothing in the game that actually modifies the ability score modifier without changing the ability score.
ALSO, the FAQ is on ability score increases, both temporary and permanent.
Read this again
ABILITY SCORE increases
Not modifier bonuses. The FAQ is on target. You are missing it.
The FAQ title is
'Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?'
You are mistaking the word BONUS to only mean something related to a modifier. This is incorrect.
Ability Score Bonuses are things that add to your ability score. Not things that add to your ability score modifier.
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Answer 2)
Actually, they do have FAQs which are basically errata. On the forums you will hear the word faqratta to describe such situations.
The difference between temporary ability scores and permanent ability scores was that temporary did not add to you ability score. It was a modifier to things that ability score added to.
This changed with the FAQ.
A +1 to things that strength adds to can not add to encumbrance, but the FAQ says the strength increase, even temporary, does so. Just as if it were permanent.
"Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. " <--- If it does everything a permanent ability score does... is there a difference between the two? No.
If I make up a word, locratta, and then define it to mean 'fish'... is there a difference between the two, locratta and fish? No. Same principle.
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"You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors." <--- Something the old style bonus could not do. But permanent could.
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"A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."<--- Here they state, for a second time, that temporary ability score bonuses affect everything that permanent ones do. Being that stats and rolls are nearly the entirety of the game. As far as ability scores are concerned.
Thus, temporary ability score increases, by definition, affect everything permanent ones do.
Thus, while technically different, they mechanically do the same thing.
Everything you typed is still differentiating between the two.
They do not mechancialyl do the same thing because ablity damage can change one without the other. That makes them different mechanically and technically.
Also if the difference were that small you could sub in a +1 modifier to strength instead of a strength score of 13(+1) and still qualify for power attack, but you can't because a 12 gets you a +1, but it does not get you power attack.
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Ability scores even has its own specific definition per the PRD.
Ability Score: Each creature has six ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. These scores represent a creature's most basic attributes. The higher the score, the more raw potential and talent your character possesses.
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Everything you typed is still differentiating between the two.
They do not mechancialyl do the same thing because ablity damage can change one without the other. That makes them different mechanically and technically.
Also if the difference were that small you could sub in a +1 modifier to strength instead of a strength score of 13(+1) and still qualify for power attack, but you can't because a 12 gets you a +1, but it does not get you power attack.
You really should read everything I wrote. All your answers are there.
The FAQ literally says that temporary ability score bonuses(read, actual ability score manipulation NOT ability score modifier manipulation) affect all stats and rolls that permanent ones do. Including things like encumbrance. (Your modifier has nothing to do with encumbrance, this should be your clue that talking about ability score modifiers is incorrect)This means, being that temporary does all that permanent does... it means that they are mechanically the same. They achieve the same results. There is no number crunching difference between the two... how else can I say this? In all things but name they are the same.
Now, about the difference between ability penalties and bonuses...
Ability PENALTY is not an ability BONUS. They do not work in the same fashion. They are not comparable.
Ability score damage can not prevent you from using a feat you have. But, an ability score bonus can cause you to meet the prereqs for feats.
A.S. penalties NEVER actually reduce your ability score. A.S. bonuses DO increase your ability score.
NEITHER changes your ability score modifier without changing the ability score itself.
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Ability score bonuses increase your ability score, for all considerations. As according to the FAQ, temporary adds to all things permanent does... temporary is just like permanent.
Ability score damages add a penalty to things related to the ability score, but does not change your ability score.
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I was explaining how Ability Score Damage worked in my last post, yes. And there is a difference between the ability score and what the ability score damage does... but that relates only to ability score damage.
Ability score bonuses... are... different. Simply put.
To add one more thing... If I had +2 strength ability score bonus and -2 strength ability score damage... they would not cancel each other out as they are not equal in effect.
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edit:
Ability scores even has its own specific definition per the PRD.Ability Score: Each creature has six ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. These scores represent a creature's most basic attributes. The higher the score, the more raw potential and talent your character possesses.
I can only imagine you wrote this as somehow being against ability score bonus, and saying it is not related directly to an ability score...
Except the definition for ability score bonuses is that they DO add to ability scores.It is a BONUS which is applied to ABILITY SCORES. Thus ability score bonus.
Which has little to do with, other than through causality, modifiers. A Modifier is called a bonus if positive and penalty if negative. But is always a modifier, not an ability score. It is related directly to the ability score, as the ability score determines the modifier.
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IMO you should be able to take any feat you like, but only be able to use it if you meet the pre-requisites.
That makes the whole 'temporary vs permanent' debate irrelevant and otherwise follows standard rules (e.g. if you lose a pre-req to a feat you can't use that feat until/unless you regain the pre-req).
The alternative is to introduce a bunch of complexities to prevent people from taking feats which they won't be able to use some (or possibly all) of the time. Why bother?
That said, the RAW say you need to meet the pre-reqs to "select or use" a feat. Personally, I'd ignore the 'select', but (again RAW) there is nothing saying it could not be met by even a one round boost... so very nearly the same result.
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IMO you should be able to take any feat you like, but only be able to use it if you meet the pre-requisites.
That makes the whole 'temporary vs permanent' debate irrelevant and otherwise follows standard rules (e.g. if you lose a pre-req to a feat you can't use that feat until/unless you regain the pre-req).
The alternative is to introduce a bunch of complexities to prevent people from taking feats which they won't be able to use some (or possibly all) of the time. Why bother?
That said, the RAW say you need to meet the pre-reqs to "select or use" a feat. Personally, I'd ignore the 'select', but (again RAW) there is nothing saying it could not be met by even a one round boost... so very nearly the same result.
You are correct. You must qualify to select a feat.
I also agree that you should be able to select a feat without meeting the prereq. I think it should be fair to temporarily qualify for a feat.
But there is a post by SKR that states that you must have a permanent ability score increase to qualify for a pre-req for a feat. This is apparently the intent of the time.
But that is also from before the FAQ we've been discussing that states temporary ability score bonuses should perform no different than permanent ability score bonuses.
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To be clear, the specific example which triggered this FAQ request:
Can a character with a natural strength score of 12, who is wearing a Belt of Giant's Strength +2 consistently, take the Power Attack feat when they level up?
(with the understanding that they can only use the feat while their total strength is at least 13)NOTE:
Wraithstrike's initial post and question is misworded as it implies we're asking about short duration buffs to ability scores rather than long-duration (over 24 hour) enhancements from items.
That's not the question. That answer is obvious: Yes. A Belt of Giant Strength gives a permanent bonus to Strength.
The only curiosity is about how temporary bonuses to ability scores effect a character's options.
This changed with the FAQ.Nothing changed the rules in the core rulebook about temporary bonuses due to the FAQ.
Those rules were simply explained.
"Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. "
"A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."
Those quotes seem to make the entire temporary ability score section in core moot and incorrect. In essence it does explain things but that explanation is that there is no differentiation between the two unlike what is presented in the core book. So the section on score bonuses should drop the temporary and permanent qualifiers as they are meaningless after the FAQ.
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It really should be the same rule for all pre-reqs, not just temp/perm ability scores.
For example, I'd allow a character without the Alertness feat pre-req to take 'Uncanny Alertness'. Maybe it is useless to them... or maybe they get a familiar and then have both Alertness & Uncanny Alertness when the familiar is 'within arms reach'.
Basically, the whole nebulous middle ground of how 'strongly' do you need to meet the pre-req to take the feat should be banished to the outer darkness. There is already a control in place preventing feats from being USED if the pre-reqs aren't met. Preventing them from being taken in the first place just introduces confusion over 'how permanently' you need to meet the pre-req.
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This changed with the FAQ.Nothing changed the rules in the core rulebook about temporary bonuses due to the FAQ.
Those rules were simply explained.
This is... very not true at all. At all at all. Have you even read the core rule book rules on temporary ability score bonuses?
I'll quote it to you..."Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."
Note the similarity to ability score penalties.
"For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."
These do not say 'on even numbers for the ability score...blahblah'. No, these are creating a wholly separate stat to track. Where every two points in it offer either a +1(bonuses) or -1(penalties).
Unlike permanent ability score bonuses which specifically...
"Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability."
Are you starting to see how this can not possibly be an explanation? It is not even in the same ballpark.
Temporary ability score bonuses, per the CRB, never actually increased your ability score. They worked similar to penalties. But, with the FAQ...
Temporary ability score bonuses act exactly as permanent. Meaning that they actually increase the score and come will all the perks of that.
This is wildly different from the text given in the CRB.
More or less the FAQ annihilates any distinction between TEMP and Permanent ability score bonuses.
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To be clear, the specific example which triggered this FAQ request:
Can a character with a natural strength score of 12, who is wearing a Belt of Giant's Strength +2 consistently, take the Power Attack feat when they level up?
(with the understanding that they can only use the feat while their total strength is at least 13)NOTE:
Wraithstrike's initial post and question is misworded as it implies we're asking about short duration buffs to ability scores rather than long-duration (over 24 hour) enhancements from items.That's not the question. That answer is obvious: Yes. A Belt of Giant Strength gives a permanent bonus to Strength.
The only curiosity is about how temporary bonuses to ability scores effect a character's options.
The answer is this... the FAQ is simple. Treat all temporary ability score bonuses as if they were permanent bonuses. They mechanically achieve the same thing. In all things but name, temporary = permanent.
Whether this was actually intended... I don't know. But the FAQ says twice that temporary = permanent for stats and rolls. Which, permanent only affects stats and rolls.
This means temp CON gives you HP. Temp INT gives you skills. Temp STR increases your carry capacity. And qualifies you for feat reqs. Just for example.
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So the section on score bonuses should drop the temporary and permanent qualifiers as they are meaningless after the FAQ.
I think you are missing their purpose.
If you use Pen and Paper, and not something like HeroLab, you might forget all the things that change when you make a change.
The lists in the back of the book is there for the "pen and paper - quick and dirty" people.
If you want precision, then the FAQ tells you how to get it.
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So the section on score bonuses should drop the temporary and permanent qualifiers as they are meaningless after the FAQ.I think you are missing their purpose.
If you use Pen and Paper, and not something like HeroLab, you might forget all the things that change when you make a change.
The lists in the back of the book is there for the "pen and paper - quick and dirty" people.
If you want precision, then the FAQ tells you how to get it.
Well, as bad an idea as that really is, having a rule that works differently depending on how you feel that day...
That isn't what the FAQ says.It does spell out an intent. But then it goes ahead and says that the 'fast and easy way' is no longer valid, by saying that temporary = permanent.
With that line(actually two, since they say it twice) they remove the distinction between the two and if you choose to not take all the benefit that you are due... well then that is on you. But you are due the entire benefit of having an increased ability score.
So the section on score bonuses should drop the temporary and permanent qualifiers as they are meaningless after the FAQ.I think you are missing their purpose.
If you use Pen and Paper, and not something like HeroLab, you might forget all the things that change when you make a change.
The lists in the back of the book is there for the "pen and paper - quick and dirty" people.
If you want precision, then the FAQ tells you how to get it.
If you want the correct answer, you want the FAQ. And that answer is that "Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do."
"Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability" seems pretty super clear what it means. I couldn't care less WHY they said that, but they made it darn clear. And it's also pretty darn clear that it changed the rules from the core rulebook.
Now if you don't care about the correct answer, you can use the now incorrect "quick and dirty" method listed in the CRB.
edit:
Ability scores even has its own specific definition per the PRD.Ability Score: Each creature has six ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. These scores represent a creature's most basic attributes. The higher the score, the more raw potential and talent your character possesses.
I can only imagine you wrote this as somehow being against ability score bonus, and saying it is not related directly to an ability score...
Except the definition for ability score bonuses is that they DO add to ability scores.It is a BONUS which is applied to ABILITY SCORES. Thus ability score bonus.
Which has little to do with, other than through causality, modifiers. A Modifier is called a bonus if positive and penalty if negative. But is always a modifier, not an ability score. It is related directly to the ability score, as the ability score determines the modifier.
My only point here is exactly what I wrote. I don't know why you made that assumption.
Tell me what you think I was saying without trying to read into it. I want to be sure we're on the same page even if we disagree.
I'm waiting for that quote from the FAQ saying a temp score is the same as a permanent one.
Don't mention bonuses. I'm not asking about bonuses.
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The FAQ is addressing the question as to whether, for instance, a temporary Dex bonus would interact properly with Weapon Finesse. They clarified that the temporary bonuses to attribute scores aren't an exhaustive list; they list the default adjustments. So just because Strength lists +1 to melee attack rolls doesn't mean that someone using Weapon Finesse or Guided Hand must use Bull's Strength to enhance their attack rather than Cat's Grace or Owl's Wisdom. That does not contradict the notion that temporary bonuses don't qualify you for feat prerequisites.
Many folks seem have a misunderstanding about what FAQs are for. They're here to answer questions about rule ambiguities, not to make changes in the ruleset.
No faq is needed for this question as the answer is quite clear in the rules text. Ability score changes need to be PERMANENT in order to let you qualify for feats. Period, end of story.
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The FAQ is addressing the question as to whether, for instance, a temporary Dex bonus would interact properly with Weapon Finesse. They clarified that the temporary bonuses to attribute scores aren't an exhaustive list; they list the default adjustments. So just because Strength lists +1 to melee attack rolls doesn't mean that someone using Weapon Finesse or Guided Hand must use Bull's Strength to enhance their attack rather than Cat's Grace or Owl's Wisdom. That does not contradict the notion that temporary bonuses don't qualify you for feat prerequisites.Many folks seem have a misunderstanding about what FAQs are for. They're here to answer questions about rule ambiguities, not to make changes in the ruleset.
No faq is needed for this question as the answer is quite clear in the rules text. Ability score changes need to be PERMANENT in order to let you qualify for feats. Period, end of story.
This is not true. As temporary increase now actually increase your ability score... they work just like permanent. Which lets you qualify for feats.
Originally temp ability score bonuses did not increase your ability score. It only added an extra modifier, like ability score penalties do. But the FAQ makes it clear that a temp bonus does everything a permanent bonus does.
I know logic says it shouldn't.. that it's a bad move. I agree.
But, that is what the FAQ says.
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I'm waiting for that quote from the FAQ saying a temp score is the same as a permanent one.
Don't mention bonuses. I'm not asking about bonuses.
Okay, I have explained this several times now.
READ THIS....
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A 'temporary ability score bonus' is an ACTUAL increase to your ABILITY SCORE. It has nothing to do with anything else.
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Those two things... are the same thing. A 'temp score' is a 'temporary ability score bonus'.
You are shortening the verbage and then saying the full verbage is a different thing. You can't do that and be correct.
Thus, a 'bonus' which you are saying don't talk about... is what is either temporary or permanent. How can I talk about two parts of a thing if you say don't talk about the thing?
It's like saying... don't talk about quarters. Explain to me the difference between the front and back of a quarter.
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Seriously, what do you believe a 'bonus' is? What is the definition you are using?
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The FAQ is addressing the question as to whether, for instance, a temporary Dex bonus would interact properly with Weapon Finesse. They clarified that the temporary bonuses to attribute scores aren't an exhaustive list; they list the default adjustments. So just because Strength lists +1 to melee attack rolls doesn't mean that someone using Weapon Finesse or Guided Hand must use Bull's Strength to enhance their attack rather than Cat's Grace or Owl's Wisdom. That does not contradict the notion that temporary bonuses don't qualify you for feat prerequisites.Many folks seem have a misunderstanding about what FAQs are for. They're here to answer questions about rule ambiguities, not to make changes in the ruleset.
No faq is needed for this question as the answer is quite clear in the rules text. Ability score changes need to be PERMANENT in order to let you qualify for feats. Period, end of story.
This is not true. As temporary increase now actually increase your ability score... they work just like permanent. Which lets you qualify for feats.
Originally temp ability score bonuses did not increase your ability score. It only added an extra modifier, like ability score penalties do. But the FAQ makes it clear that a temp bonus does everything a permanent bonus does.
I know logic says it shouldn't.. that it's a bad move. I agree.
But, that is what the FAQ says.
No it doesn't. You like others are overreading the ruling. Temporary Increases work like Permanent Increases for the immmediate effects. such as what Strength and Dex bonuses to for things such as to hit, damage, encumbrance ac, reflex saves and whatnot. Temp bonuses last only minutes per level, not long enough to affect feat choices.
I'm waiting for that quote from the FAQ saying a temp score is the same as a permanent one.
Don't mention bonuses. I'm not asking about bonuses.
That's a distinction without meaning IMO. You can't get a temp/permanent score without a bonuses, so a quote about bonuses IS a quote about the scores they modify.
What you ask is like says 'I want a quote about calculating attack rolls but I don't want to hear anything about bonuses"... :P
The FAQ is addressing the question as to whether, for instance, a temporary Dex bonus would interact properly with Weapon Finesse. They clarified that the temporary bonuses to attribute scores aren't an exhaustive list; they list the default adjustments. So just because Strength lists +1 to melee attack rolls doesn't mean that someone using Weapon Finesse or Guided Hand must use Bull's Strength to enhance their attack rather than Cat's Grace or Owl's Wisdom. That does not contradict the notion that temporary bonuses don't qualify you for feat prerequisites.Many folks seem have a misunderstanding about what FAQs are for. They're here to answer questions about rule ambiguities, not to make changes in the ruleset.
No faq is needed for this question as the answer is quite clear in the rules text. Ability score changes need to be PERMANENT in order to let you qualify for feats. Period, end of story.
It's you who are misunderstanding. The Dev's doesn't follow your 'rule' that FAQ's are only for clarifications as they seem to have NO qualms in making new rules with them.
The simple clarification if the FAQ in question was that there isn't a difference anymore between temp and permanent. I'll agree it's pretty clear in the text, although I have a come to a different conclusion than you.
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No it doesn't. You like others are overreading the ruling. Temporary Increases work like Permanent Increases for the immmediate effects. such as what Strength and Dex bonuses to for things such as to hit, damage, encumbrance ac, reflex saves and whatnot. Temp bonuses last only minutes per level, not long enough to affect feat choices.The FAQ is addressing the question as to whether, for instance, a temporary Dex bonus would interact properly with Weapon Finesse. They clarified that the temporary bonuses to attribute scores aren't an exhaustive list; they list the default adjustments. So just because Strength lists +1 to melee attack rolls doesn't mean that someone using Weapon Finesse or Guided Hand must use Bull's Strength to enhance their attack rather than Cat's Grace or Owl's Wisdom. That does not contradict the notion that temporary bonuses don't qualify you for feat prerequisites.Many folks seem have a misunderstanding about what FAQs are for. They're here to answer questions about rule ambiguities, not to make changes in the ruleset.
No faq is needed for this question as the answer is quite clear in the rules text. Ability score changes need to be PERMANENT in order to let you qualify for feats. Period, end of story.
This is not true. As temporary increase now actually increase your ability score... they work just like permanent. Which lets you qualify for feats.
Originally temp ability score bonuses did not increase your ability score. It only added an extra modifier, like ability score penalties do. But the FAQ makes it clear that a temp bonus does everything a permanent bonus does.
I know logic says it shouldn't.. that it's a bad move. I agree.
But, that is what the FAQ says.
Nowhere is that written in the rules. You are adding that to make it make sense. I understand the want to do that... but you can't quote a single rule in the books or the FAQ that says that.
The FAQ stipulates no restrictions on how alike temporary is to permanent... it says quick specifically, twice, that temporary applies to all things that permanent does.
As I have said, what feels like a hundred times now, temp bonuses did not increase your ability score originally. Now it does. That is the difference. With no restrictions. In all ways, just as a permanent ability score bonus does.
Even the SKR quote came from before the FAQ.