Why on earth would you Arcane Mark someone in combat? There may be a rare role-playing reason but essentially it's just to use the system as writ to get an extra attack.
Ever seen Zorro in action?
Nah! Feels a bit 'munchkin' to me.
Fair enough, and I do agree. But there isn't much of an alternative.
You use Arcane Mark as a way to conserve your real magic and confound an enemy that isn't magically adept. Did they just cast that cantrip, or was it Chill Touch this time?
Another way to think of it is that spell strike is a special combination of casting and attacking. It doesn't matter that the spell is harmless, by successfully casting a touch spell you create an opening for another attack. If you fail the concentration roll, you don't get that attack.
If you're really worried about it you could restrict it to one (successful) arcane-mark per enemy.
It's not as much of a nerf as you think. Against mooks they're unlikely to need more than one round of double damage, and against tougher enemies they likely want to cast a better spell.
If they have a high charisma you could rule it as them marking their enemies in an attempt to intimidate them (you could even give a small circumstance bonus sometimes).
If they have a low charisma you could do the same, but make it they're "trying" to intimidate and look cool, but really they're annoying everyone: "Did you have to mark EVERY ONE of these goblins? We're trying to keep a low profile in this area!"
If you really can't reconcile it and don't want to nerf them, just give them brand, it's hardly game-breaking.
If you don't want to break the rules just wait 1 level & they can take the Close Range arcana anyway. One level won't hurt them too badly.
So, this Arcane Mark combo really doesn't sit right with me.
It's almost like TWF, except it requires a concentration check to avoid provoking an AoO.
On topic: They should just put Touch of Fatigue, or an equivalent, on the magus spell list.
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Although the combo is obvious, in practice I don't see people use it all that often. After a couple of levels, there's almost always some other spell you'd rather be casting, that's more valuable than just an additional melee attack with nothing special. At least in the first few rounds of combat; you're already trying to find the time to cast both your buffs, defensive spells and augment your attacks.
Now at levels 2-3 you might have so few spells per day that you can't afford to cast Shield, Vanish, Shocking Grasp, Blade Lash, Frostbite or Snowball every fight, but when you get either Spell Recall or a nice string of Pearls of Power I, that becomes something you can afford to do every fight.
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I can think of two legitimate reasons to spell strike Arcane Mark. First, it may ruin a Vigilante, but that is probably a debate of another thread. Secondly, there were a number of Pulp characters who were known for leaving their mark on defeated bad guys.
The Ghost Who Walks wore a ring that left a skull tattoo.
Arcane Mark can be invisible, it doesn't have to betray he caster's secrets.
You can fluff the spell as sort of magically reaching to learn where the target will be. After all, if it (mechanically) empowers another attack, and that's as intended (and it's been said, it IS as intended), then letting the fluff catch up to the mechanics and intent needn't smell too much like cheese.
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Most fights are "decided" in the first couple of rounds; if the PCs can get some control over the situation they're likely to come out alive. If enemies manage to scatter the party and basically divide and conquer, ouch. Either way, it can still take several rounds before the fight is actually won, but it's usually in the early rounds that it becomes apparent who'll likely win.
There are some reasons for this:
- Since people can't take Attacks of Opportunity while flat-footed like at the start of combat, that's a great time to move around enemies before they can stop you. Like running past the enemy's melee dudes and cornering their wizard.
- Enemies may be attacking from an unexpected ("not the front") direction. It takes a round or two for everyone to shuffle in or out of the melee position they want to be in. Until that's happened, some people may be more at risk of attack than usual.
- Short-term buffs may not have been cast yet.
With Spell Combat, magi have a big advantage in fast and furious fights, because they don't have to choose between either fighting or casting (buffing); they can do both at the same time. Why would you bother economizing with Arcane Mark if you could be protecting yourself with Shield, using Vanish to slip through enemy ranks to their squishy leader, or using Shocking Grasp to suddenly kill an enemy and thus adjust the odds in the PCs' favour?
You might see some Arcane Marking in the mop-up rounds, after buffs have already been cast and no enemies are "worth" another Shocking Grasp - but that probably won't happen all that often. It's often a very smart idea to kill enemies faster, because that'll save on damage they might get to deal to you which you'll have to heal.
All that said, yeah, Brand is much cooler hotter than Arcane Mark. Note that the Hexcrafter archetype gives access to that. (It's one of the top-notch archetypes mainly for the chance to get a Fly hex.)
Thank you everyone. These are all very good arguments and help to make me feel better with the whole idea.
@Mr Charisma. Thanks for pointing out the Close Range power. I'm not very familiar with the class yet and now that I know it's pretty much a moot point from third level anyway, that's much more acceptable.I suppose it's the fact that a Magus who's run out of better things to do will end up doing it round after round that concerned me most, but these arguments are all good.
Cheers.
I would like to point out that although "close range" is something they can pick up at level 3, they only get to choose one arcana every three levels (unless they take the extra arcana feat or find some other way of picking up extra arcana). There is an opportunity cost here, and it's one they might not want to pay.
Having said that, it's still a good class without having an extra attack every round from a cantrip.If you think it's too munchkin don't allow it, but be upfront with the player. If they don't think the magus is good enough without that ability, they need their head read =P (sorry, but seriously that's hardly the best thing about their class).
If you decide to allow it, think of it like a variation of the arcane strike feat. It's an ability that lets the magus channel a small amount of arcane energy into their weapon, but it's such a small cost that they can keep it up all day.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Why is the extra attack 'broken'? It's like the monk's flurry of blows, but with a concentration check or you don't get your extra attack.
It isn't broken.
It seems like it is a mistake, leaving one spell, a 0 level spell, that can permanently be used to get the extra attack.
If I remember correctly, a developer said they didn't catch it.
In any event, whether or not it was intentional is irrelevant. It still isn't broken.
The Spider fits even better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_(pulp_fiction)
One of The Spider's distinguishing features is his "calling card." Wentworth often leaves a red-ink "spider" image (like a drop of blood) on the foreheads of the criminals he kills, so others will not be blamed.
Except if you wanted, you could use an archetype or a Magus Arcana to pick up a different 0 level spell to permanently get an extra attack.
Forcing people to do this to remain useful in combat once they've used their few spell slots (at low levels) would be an unnecessary tax.
So, no, it doesn't seem like a mistake to me at all.
I'm pretty sure James is right, the developers said it was a mistake. There was a thread talking about whether it was "a feature or a bug?".
In the end they left it in (as far as I recall).This isn't a discussion about rules, even though it's in the rules forum (it should probably be in the advice forum but whatever).
So really what we're doing here is trying to reconcile character thinking with player thinking.
Is using Arcane Mark with Spellstrike Metagaming? - Usually yes, but not always.
Is Metagaming bad? - Usually yes, but not always.
In this case, the OP has said as far as he's concerned, the answer to both these questions at this point is "Yes". But he seems like he's not sure if it's bad enough to outright ban it.
To quote the OP's post:
My issue is not that it's overpowered. It's not.
...
My issue is an aesthetic one.
So how do we reconcile this aesthetically?
Is the magus leaving a calling card (and will that have consequences)?Is it something similar to Arcane Strike?
Is it just that the magus is so used to casting when he fights that he accidently casts a cantrip on the "off-turns"?
Or is it something we can't reconcile and it won't be in the OP's game?
(or do you have another solution?)
As has been stated, it's not a particularly OP ability, so whether it's left in or taken out isn't going to seriously increase/decrease the character's power. This is mostly about making the game more fun for everyone involved (which is really the highest goal we can strive for).
Cheese or not it is explicitly allowed by the rules.
Oversight or not it is explicitly sanctioned by the design team in this FAQ
Taking it out will significantly degrade the Magus' combat usefulness during long adventuring days, especially at low level. If I were that Magus, I don't think being less useful than a Rogue at combat would be that fun for me.
If the aesthetics are that troublesome, just give the Magus Brand, or allow them to use touch of fatigue without the close range arcana.
A level 2 magus with 16 int needs to roll a 10 or higher to cast defensively, that means there's a 45% chance they lose their spell and are stuck with a -2 to hit on their remaining attack. On top of that, spell combat is a full-round action, meaning this option has an extremely high opportunity cost.
By level 3, they can pick up the Close Range arcana if they're that worried, and as they go higher in level they get more spells/day, more damage (and damage types) from their arcane pool, spell recall, etc. They have other options to increase their damage output. If a fight is non-threatening enough that you don't feel like burning a 1st level spell-slot, it's probably not going to be all that game-breaking if you can't get that (situational) 2nd attack.I agree with you, they might as well allow it (or brand/etc), but I don't think it will "significantly degrade" them.
The Two-World Magic trait allows any magus to add a combat touch cantrip to their list.
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And lose out on Magical Lineage - shocking grasp? Are you MAD, man?! ;)
To someone that thinks the Arcane Mark combo is a loophole, Magical Lineage - shocking grasp will make them pass out from shock! ;)
And lose out on Magical Lineage - shocking grasp? Are you MAD, man?! ;)
Probably, since I didn't take either of the two common Magus traits on mine. I just made sure that I could take them later via Additional Traits if I later decided that I really needed them.
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Taking it out will significantly degrade the Magus' combat usefulness during long adventuring days, especially at low level. If I were that Magus, I don't think being less useful than a Rogue at combat would be that fun for me.
If the aesthetics are that troublesome, just give the Magus Brand, or allow them to use touch of fatigue without the close range arcana.
A level 2 magus with 16 int needs to roll a 10 or higher to cast defensively, that means there's a 45% chance they lose their spell and are stuck with a -2 to hit on their remaining attack. On top of that, spell combat is a full-round action, meaning this option has an extremely high opportunity cost.
By level 3, they can pick up the Close Range arcana if they're that worried, and as they go higher in level they get more spells/day, more damage (and damage types) from their arcane pool, spell recall, etc. They have other options to increase their damage output. If a fight is non-threatening enough that you don't feel like burning a 1st level spell-slot, it's probably not going to be all that game-breaking if you can't get that (situational) 2nd attack.I agree with you, they might as well allow it (or brand/etc), but I don't think it will "significantly degrade" them.
Are you guys building magi without Combat Casting? Why do people keep doing that?
Anyway, "more useless than a rogue" seems rather exaggerated. Between Arcane Pool and either combat-length buffs like Shield, or "quickly reduce the number of enemies" spells like Shocking Grasp, you should be able to get a decisive edge in the first rounds of combat without having to spend all your resources.
Also, yeah, resource management is a thing for casters. It's part of the challenge. You need to learn that most of the time you don't need to spend all your spells to win faster; that if you have enough tactical advantage you can conserve resources. And that sometimes it's time to pull out all the stops and kill something RIGHT NOW. As a class, magi can switch neatly between these things.
Are you guys building magi without Combat Casting? Why do people keep doing that?
1) Spell combat already comes with the option to take a further penalty to attacks to get a boost to defensive casting.
2) At 8th level they get a +2 to concentration for free.3) Because magus don't gain new spell levels as quickly as other casters, it becomes less relevant for higher level magus. E.g, magus gain access to 6th level spells at level 16. A level 16 magus probably has at least a +5 int mod, giving them a base +23 to their concentration check. That is auto-success for for to 4th level spells, and a very low failure rate for even 6th level spells (which could be further secured with spell combats built in bonuses)
4) Correct tactics can often avoid the need to roll a concentration check at all. Attacking from invisibility. Cast spell, then 5' step next to target, etc. (This isn't always the case, but such tactics can be used often).
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Are you guys building magi without Combat Casting? Why do people keep doing that?
1) Spell combat already comes with the option to take a further penalty to attacks to get a boost to defensive casting.
2) At 8th level they get a +2 to concentration for free.
You don't really want to-hit penalties if you can avoid it. But you also don't ever want to fail concentration checks. You don't want "only 30% chance of failure", you want much better reliability than that. Your spells are important and valuable. So you want ALL the concentration bonuses.
3) Because magus don't gain new spell levels as quickly as other casters, it becomes less relevant for higher level magus. E.g, magus gain access to 6th level spells at level 16. A level 16 magus probably has at least a +5 int mod, giving them a base +23 to their concentration check. That is auto-success for for to 4th level spells, and a very low failure rate for even 6th level spells (which could be further secured with spell combats built in bonuses)
"The problem goes away sometime after level 12" isn't good enough. Most of the campaign will be spent at lower level; many campaigns don't even make it that far. So it's a lousy way to build a character for a glorious time that'll be a long time coming.
4) Correct tactics can often avoid the need to roll a concentration check at all. Attacking from invisibility. Cast spell, then 5' step next to target, etc. (This isn't always the case, but such tactics can be used often).
The biggest issue is: suppose you're already next to your enemy. Maybe he stepped close to you, maybe you stepped close to him - doesn't matter, it's likely to happen quite often.
And then you want to cast a spell, and then attack. Like Shocking Grasp. It's not good enough to attack, step away and THEN cast; it has to be cast, attack. And it has to work reliably.
You don't really want to-hit penalties if you can avoid it. But you also don't ever want to fail concentration checks. You don't want "only 30% chance of failure", you want much better reliability than that. Your spells are important and valuable. So you want ALL the concentration bonuses.
Depends on what you are fighting. Sometimes even the -2 from spell combat is to much. Sometimes you could take a -6 and not care.
The biggest issue is: suppose you're already next to your enemy. Maybe he stepped close to you, maybe you stepped close to him - doesn't matter, it's likely to happen quite often.And then you want to cast a spell, and then attack. Like Shocking Grasp. It's not good enough to attack, step away and THEN cast; it has to be cast, attack. And it has to work reliably.
If the only spells in your magus spell book are touch attack spells, you might be playing him wrong.
Mirror image, dimension door, vanish/invisibility/greater invisibility, stone skin, battlefield control spells, etc. For none of these do you need to be standing next to your opponent when you cast the spell.
Why isn't your party barbarian beheading the guys that are standing next to you so that on your turn you can cast, 5' step, and hit the next guy in line?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Well actually...
...a low-level Magus doesn't often need to cast defensively, because he can cast a spell from 5' away, then 5'step up, then attack; and the next round he can attack, 5'step away, then cast.
...aside from that, a Magus with Shield or Mirror Image up could simply cast non-defensively and trust his defensive buffs to foil the opportunity attack.
...a low-level Magus can also use the Daze cantrip to good effect if he doesn't want to spellstrike.
...and there are several ways to get another attack cantrip on your list, if you don't want to use Arcane Mark. Here's a guide with suggestions.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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...a low-level Magus doesn't often need to cast defensively, because he can cast a spell from 5' away, then 5'step up, then attack; and the next round he can attack, 5'step away, then cast.We're talking about using Arcane Mark to get in two attacks. The 5' step away, then cast doesn't allow this.
It allows it every other turn. I said "not often", not "never".