Wishlist for Archetypes


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
legoguy4492 wrote:
A tinkerer type archetype for the alchemist

Have you seen this? (It's free.)


An archetype(more then likely alchemist) that makes one use thrown items like holy water, alchemist fire, etc. a lot more effective and useful.


I'd like to have:

-An Occultist with mystical tatoos as implements.

-A Druid and/or an Oracle with spontaneous psychic casting

-A Sorcerer/Psychic with a Devastating Infusion equivalent

-A shapeshifting Psychic with something like the Metamorph's Shapechanger.

-A Vigilante with elemental blasts, infusions ands wild talents.

-A Bard with elemental blasts, infusions ands wild talents instead of spells.

-A Wizard or Arcanist with investigator talents.

-A blaster Monk.

-A sneak attacking Summoner.

-A Fighter able to use buffing and debuffing auras.

-A Fighter able to supernaturally enhance his weapons as with the Magus' Arcane Pool.

-A gun focused Magus.

-A Medium able to use the Supernaturalist's animal spirits and Hunter's spells.

-A Spiritualist able to gain mutagens' effects when their phantom share their conciousness.

-A Witch with an Eidolon they can summon a few times a day as with Summon Eidolon.


A Magus archetype that can really weaponize illusions, possibly delivering its spells through said illusions, or using them as the origin point of its spells (I had hoped these would be sort of what the Puppeteer Magus would be like when I saw its name, but I was sadly wrong.)

A different form of Synthesist summoner that carries the same feel as wearing the Eidolon like armor. Dont replace the Summoner's stats with that of the Eidolon, but perhaps get a buff to 1 or two stats based on the form. Im imagining something sorta like Shaman King where the spirits more or less mimicked their partners moves (from what I remember), or Crown Clown from D.Gray-man as armor that sort of had a mind of its own.

Some sort of archetype that gives the Magus some of the Kineticist's abilities. Love the idea of being able to attack with a sword in one hand and blast enemies across the battlefield with the other. Yes, I am aware I can easily do this with Sphere's of Power, but I'd like to see a Paizo attempt.

Similarly, a Witch Kineticist that focuses on hexing people and throwing out elemental blasts, sort of like a 3.5 Warlock. Again, SoP can do it quite well, but I'd like to see the attempt.

A Druid variant (can't really imagine this as an archetype) that focuses on wildshaping into constructs instead of animals and plants and elementals. Maybe start it off at level one with a limited use ability to shift its hands to get increased unarmed strike damage, advancing it till it can shapeshift its entire body.

A heavy armored, strength based Magus that loses Spell Combat but can channel more spell types through Spell Strike. Like wading into battle and Striking an enemy, detonating a Fireball spell to deal AoE damage. Or swinging the weapon and unleashing a Cone of Cold.

As others have said, Kineticist archetypes that benefit from taking only 1 element.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Any archetype designed by someone who actually understands how the class they're designing for works.


A magus archetype that greats/uses weapons made of shadow magic(kind of like shadow crafted weapons).

A monk with ki blast sounds cool.

It would be cool seeing other classes get an eidolon with full evolutions. I would be fine if it was the unchained version.


Cyrad wrote:
Any archetype designed by someone who actually understands how the class they're designing for works.

I'm sorry the Scientific Innovator archetype didn't do it for you -- what about it did you dislike or find to be awry?


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Edymnion wrote:
I find it odd how in a thread specifically about "Pitch some ideas for new archetypes" you are so dead set apparently on detailing why there shouldn't be a new archetype.

I'm with you on this one. I'm not sure when it turned into a thread complaining about the archetypes people suggested.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Actually, Scout Rogue (but make it Unchained) might do part of what you want, although instead of getting rid of Sneak Attack, it makes it easier to pull off. At 4th level, instead of Uncanny Dodge, you get to do Sneak Attack damage on a charge, unless the foe has Uncanny Dodge or is otherwise immune to Sneak Attack. At 8th level, instead of Improved Uncanny Dodge, you get to do Sneak Attack whenever you move more than 10 feet in a round and make an Attack Action (although it only works once per round, and not against foes with Uncanny Dodge or other immunity to Sneak Attack).

I know for myself it wouldn't be a satisfying alternative. I've often wanted a static combat buff instead of the situational one that sneak attack does. While Scout Rogue adds another way to activate sneak attack, it's still situational.


I wonder why I said "greats" instead of "creates", weird, I must have been tired.

Silver Crusade

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Dragon78 wrote:

A monk with ki blast sounds cool.

It would be cool seeing other classes get an eidolon with full evolutions. I would be fine if it was the unchained version.

Totally agreed here, give me a DBZ monk.

As for eidolons, I've always wanted a fighter archetype that received evolution points, or just a shapeshifting base class.


I wouldn't mind seeing an archetype for the skald that uses his performance rounds to deal sonic damage to the enemy. On a more general term I'd like to see more "savage" archetypes that lack rage as a class feature.

What I don't want to see are more archetypes that copy and paste class features from other classes.


An alchemcial item and poison enhancing alchemist archetype.
my preference would be to not have it switch out Mutagen, so it stacks with toxicants. Toxicant is great for me.
A lot of things I would consider switching for that.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
JiCi wrote:

Well, I think every class can be made into a vigilante identity archetype.

- Warlock: Magus (can also be related to sorcerer and wizard)

I agree with this, and I wonder why the Cabalist uses the Magus spell list and the Warlock uses Wizard. I would have thought the Warlock would use the magus list, and for the cablist the spiritualist list (although probably keyed to Intelligence instead of Wisdom) would work very nicely.

Once I get a moment, I plan to scrounge the boards in case someone has a good answer for this already.

JiCi wrote:

So yeah, archetypes that change the social identity would be great to have. An Inquisitor social archetype would work. I know that Bruce Wayne is a businessman, but come on, he does a LOT of detective work outside of the costume.

EDIT: Also, how about an archetype that ISN'T about deception and "secret" identity? The Vigilante identity would simply be a "power up". Y'know, a lot of heroes and villains have alter egos that are just their "true forms" or such.

I have two ideas so far that were inspired by this post (and popular literature, obviously):

--A spymaster. Trades away the divination protection of a social identity, but gains invesitgator-style inspiration points for social and knowledge skills (including Disguise and Bluff, obviously), and can possibly pick investigator talents related to inspiration in addition to his normal social talent selections.
--R.E.D.: Again, trades away the divination protection of her social identity, but does gain a bonus to appear harmless and ineffective. People "in the know" know who she is and what she used to do, but they don't believe she can/will do it any more. Add a rage-style fatigue penalty for using her vigilante skills to reinforce this. Toss in a couple social talents that have higher bonuses for people in mature, old, and venerable age categories, to emphasize the intent but not straight-jacket the archetype with them.

Edit to the Edit: There are so many characters I might want to play using my proposed R.E.D. archetype. Sure, you got your retired assassin/mercenary/detective, but also consider: a reformed criminal running from her past. An aesthetic that sets aside an old vow to never raise his hand in violence again. The high priestess of Desna that hasn't quite fallen out of her training. An android/samsaran haunted by frustrating memories of his past life and one or two surprising abilities quite outside his normal skill set.
The entire League of Extrodinary Gentlemen is on the table using this archetype, is what I'm saying.

To add to the original topic, I too would like to see a bard and alchemist caster vigilante archetypes, but to me the best way to go about that would be to key off the spell-list themes. A bard archetype might not have a high perform skill, but her Diplomacy would be aces and she'd probably be a mind-reader at higher levels. The alchemist list has a ton of self-buffs, perhaps an archetype that relies on medication or rune magic to superpower themselves might work.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Must have missed this-apologies for seemingly ducking an argument I'm losing. ;)

Edymnion wrote:
Well, to put it politely, just because you personally don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Absolutely true.

Quote:
I find it odd how in a thread specifically about "Pitch some ideas for new archetypes" you are so dead set apparently on detailing why there shouldn't be a new archetype.

It's more a matter of questioning why this archetype for this class.

Quote:
With your reasoning, there would be no Zen Archer Monk because "You want a monk... that doesn't use unarmed strikes? Whats the point, go play a Fighter or a Ranger then".

I find the degree of difference... well, different, but fair point.

Quote:
I want a Rogue, that acts like a Rogue, but isn't bursty or so horribly situationaly dependent in it's ability to provide damage in combat. How hard is that to understand, really?

So what, to you, does "acts like a Rogue" mean? Because that point has been somewhat unclear. You talk numbers, you talk damage, but you haven't really explained why this is a "Rogue" thing to do or be. Once again, not trying to be snarky- I just want to understand where you're coming from.

Quote:
For me, the instant you start saying that what a class can and cannot be is based on thematics, you've already missed the entire point.

For me, if you cannot articulate why you have to be a certain class instead of another one designed to do exactly what you're talking about, you've already missed the entire point.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

MikeMyler wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Any archetype designed by someone who actually understands how the class they're designing for works.
I'm sorry the Scientific Innovator archetype didn't do it for you -- what about it did you dislike or find to be awry?

I was talking about archetypes in general.


DHAnubis wrote:
A Magus archetype that can really weaponize illusions, possibly delivering its spells through said illusions, or using them as the origin point of its spells (I had hoped these would be sort of what the Puppeteer Magus would be like when I saw its name, but I was sadly wrong.)

This idea would go well with one way of making an Arcane Trickster Base Class.

DHAnubis wrote:

{. . .}

A heavy armored, strength based Magus that loses Spell Combat but can channel more spell types through Spell Strike. Like wading into battle and Striking an enemy, detonating a Fireball spell to deal AoE damage. Or swinging the weapon and unleashing a Cone of Cold.
{. . .}

If all other things were kept approximately equal (or at least, don't diminish weapon proficiencies), this would go well with the idea of making a Magus archetype that works well with two-handed weapons and (with more inherent difficulty due to MAD and feat requirements) two-weapon fighting. This is because Spell Combat is one thing that inherently doesn't go well with these fighting styles unless you somehow manage to get an extra arm that is actually capable of making attacks (Alchemist dip + Vestigial Arm isn't good enough) -- in other words, you need to be at least a Kasatha if you haven't traded out Spell Combat for something else good. (The powerful but awkward Eldritch Archer is an obvious niche exception.) This idea also sounds like something in the Myrmidarch's direction, so maybe it should be a sub-archetype of Myrmidarch, which actually became not too shabby with the Weapon Master's Handbook, and may actually get quite good with the Armor Master's Handbook. It also sounds good for a Hellknight Magus. Speaking of the Armor Master's Handbook, which is due out around the end of this month, it claims to have a Battle Mage in it, although it is not clear what this is an archetype of -- I wonder if this will do what you/we want.


I'd like a gunslinger that uses a lasso. And a mount.

I'd like archtypes for the ninja and samurai.

I'd like a channel focused cleric archtype.


I agree could use more ninja and samurai archetypes.

Shadow Lodge

A dualist Cleric (must be either Good or Evil, can not be Neutral) that dips into both Positive and Negative Energy.

A Divine Trickster and a Divine Magus like Archetype for the Cleric. Paladin could be fun, too for the former.

Cleric Archetypes that start to dip into some of the newer classes that seem very strangely absent: Alchemist (holy bomber), Warpriest (trying out Blessings rather than Domains), Psychic/Occult.


Dragon78 wrote:
I agree could use more ninja and samurai archetypes.

I think with ninja you have to think of it as a special ops guy, so in terms of archetypes maybe:

- Explosives specialist

- Poisons specialist

- Assassination specialist

- Anti-caster specialist

- Ki specialist

- Martial arts specialist

- Long range weaponry specialist


DM Beckett wrote:

A dualist Cleric (must be either Good or Evil, can not be Neutral) that dips into both Positive and Negative Energy.

A Divine Trickster and a Divine Magus like Archetype for the Cleric. Paladin could be fun, too for the former.

Cleric Archetypes that start to dip into some of the newer classes that seem very strangely absent: Alchemist (holy bomber), Warpriest (trying out Blessings rather than Domains), Psychic/Occult.

Love the Holy Bomber idea!!


An artist based bard archetype that replaces bardic performance with various art based abilities.
-The ability to create constructs(animate objects, golems, etc.) from your(or other's) art.
-The ability to use paintings as portals to pocket dimensions or teleport related effects.
-The ability to summon/create a wall of pottery.
-Use pottery as weapons maybe even as bombs or offensive spell effects.
-Use a paint brush as a weapon.
-Whatever you paint can become real like summon monster/nature's ally, fabricate, minor/major creation, etc.
-You can use art to create illusion effects.
-and more...


I still can't quite believe that there still isn't a rogue archetype geared around throwing daggers. Or is there? My system mastery is less than perfect so correct me if I'm wrong, but acrobatic rogues throwing multiple daggers as if they are projectiles is such a classic fantasy staple of the character type that it's baffling it isn't better supported. There's even plenty of official Paizo art depicting just such a rogue, and yet to my knowledge this idea can't be realized without some rule bending or expensive equipment and even then it's not particulary effective.


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I'd like to see a cleric archetype that gets 4 or 6 skill points but keeps both domains and doesn't have diminished casting.

Or loses one domain but gains some class features that actually do something.

Or doesn't gain more skill points but casts off int.

The more I think about it the more I like the last idea. Flavor it more like a theologist or a religious scholar or archivist than a typical priest.

Something like that.

I'd also like to see a cleric archetype that can swap out its channeling to specialize on life or unlife. So you could channel positive to heal and negative to harm living targets, or negative to heal and positive to harm undead on the same chassis.


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Arthur G wrote:
I still can't quite believe that there still isn't a rogue archetype geared around throwing daggers. Or is there? My system mastery is less than perfect so correct me if I'm wrong, but acrobatic rogues throwing multiple daggers as if they are projectiles is such a classic fantasy staple of the character type that it's baffling it isn't better supported. There's even plenty of official Paizo art depicting just such a rogue, and yet to my knowledge this idea can't be realized without some rule bending or expensive equipment and even then it's not particulary effective.

Nominally Knife Master Rogue would be what you want, but I think some assembly is required. While it isn't absolutely awful, it doesn't seem very compelling either, although Unchained Rogue does help.

Ranger has a Thrown Weapon Combat Style that would be helpful . . . If only a Rogue could get it. Of course, you could go Ranger (Thrown Weapon Combat Style) VMC Rogue (to get Sneak Attack starting at 7th level). Or you could go Slayer, which has the option to take a Ranger Combat Style as a chain of 3 Slayer Talents.

Another option would be Flying Blade Swashbuckler, possibly VMC Rogue to get Sneak Attack starting at 7th level (although as a Swashbuckler you also get a slowly scaling bonus to attack rolls and damage that doesn't depend upon Sneak Attack). Although I read in some other thread (*) recently that apparently Flying Blade Swashbuckler isn't trivially easy to build effectively -- I don't know what the particular trouble was (and whether it was general to Swashbucklers or specific to the archetype), but just relaying the warning. Edit: In other words, some assembly required.

(*)This was the thread about how the new classes are doing, that started after the ACG came out, but revived when Occult Adventures came out, and has recent posts. I don't know the exact thread title.

DM Beckett wrote:
A dualist Cleric (must be either Good or Evil, can not be Neutral) that dips into both Positive and Negative Energy.

More generally, I would like a way for Good characters to get their hands on Negative Energy Channeling that can be used for something other than Command Undead. (Oracle of Life or Shaman with Life Spirit can be Evil and get unrestricted Positive Energy Channeling.)

DM Beckett wrote:
A Divine Trickster and a Divine Magus like Archetype for the Cleric. Paladin could be fun, too for the former.

Isn't Divine Magus what the Warpriest is for?

DM Beckett wrote:
Cleric Archetypes that start to dip into some of the newer classes that seem very strangely absent: Alchemist (holy bomber), Warpriest (trying out Blessings rather than Domains), Psychic/Occult.

An Occult Cleric could be one that actually can do some good in a place like Rahadoum. (Hidden Priest is supposed to do this, but sounds like it is just asking to get found out by Pure Legion Enforcers or their sympathizers that are just slightly more careful than average.)


A Mesmerist that loses its Tricks and/or touch treatments and gets hexes. Feels like you end up with way more tricks than you'll ever realistically use.

A Bard with Swashbuckler abilities (or a Swashbuckler that can inspire courage).


Giving bardic abilities to martial classes would be interesting. A barbarian that sings while raging, a fighter who is a "dance warrior", etc.

Monk and Ninja archetypes that focus heavily on ki.

Some of the psychic related classes getting ki powers.

Shadow Lodge

swoosh wrote:

I'd like to see a cleric archetype that gets 4 or 6 skill points but keeps both domains and doesn't have diminished casting.

Or loses one domain but gains some class features that actually do something.

Or doesn't gain more skill points but casts off int.

The more I think about it the more I like the last idea. Flavor it more like a theologist or a religious scholar or archivist than a typical priest.

Something like that.

I'd also like to see a cleric archetype that can swap out its channeling to specialize on life or unlife. So you could channel positive to heal and negative to harm living targets, or negative to heal and positive to harm undead on the same chassis.

The Herald Caller from Summoners Handbook does much of the early stuff you mentioned. 4+Into, looses 1 Domain, but gains some nifty abilities in exchange without loosing out spellcasting. Its not Int based, but is not as MAD as general, so it would not hurt to raise Int if desired. Also gets 2 (and a half) Bonus Feats worth having.


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N. Jolly wrote:
Totally agreed here, give me a DBZ monk.

Have you looked at the Elemental Ascetic Kineticist?

Its basically an Avatar: The Last Airbender style bending class, but it does give a lot of monk abilities along with being able to shoot elemental blasts and fly around.

Cole Deschain wrote:
So what, to you, does "acts like a Rogue" mean? Because that point has been somewhat unclear. You talk numbers, you talk damage, but you haven't really explained why this is a "Rogue" thing to do or be. Once again, not trying to be snarky- I just want to understand where you're coming from.

Well, to be honest, "Everything but Sneak Attack"?

I'll put it this way.

I'm coming at this from a "I want a Rogue that does consistent damage instead of situational burst damage". Your first reaction appears to be "Well make a Fighter archetype that gets more skillpoints etc".

I subscribe to KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid). If I want an agile skill based combatant that isn't tanky, then starting with the Rogue and modifying Sneak Attack is a much simpler answer than trying to make an archetype to turn a Fighter into a Rogue for everything except Sneak Attack.

Rogues are skill monkeys, they're agile, they're good at traps, they have lots of dirty tricks they can use, etc. I still want all of that, I just don't want the all or nothing nuke of Sneak Attack.

Something as simple as "+1 damage per X sneak attack dice when using light weapons" would do wonders.

Or give them some form of poison that only they can use that lets them do either straight bonus damage or apply differing forms of debuffs that have an X per day format.

---

I honestly don't think I can explain this any clearer. You ask what I think it means to be a Rogue, and its pretty much "The entire class". A rogue that never makes a sneak attack is still a rogue every bit as much as a ranger that never takes an animal companion is still a ranger.

Sneak Attack is just a situational class feature that I don't like that is part of the package deal for my favorite class. Archeytpes are all about trading out the stuff we don't like in order to fine tune classes into things we do like.

I don't like bursty nuke situational abilities that are beyond my ability to control. I like everything else about the class. So archetype to trade the all or nothing nuke for something more reliable while leaving the rest of the class alone is the ideal answer for me.

I honestly can't believe I'm still sitting here like I actually have to defend it. You clearly think a Rogue's sneak attack is like a wizard's spellcasting, that it is the entire point of the class while I don't. I see sneak attack as frankly an antiquated ability that has not kept up modern gaming design but is too big of a sacred cow to sacrifice.

Silver Crusade

Edymnion wrote:

Have you looked at the Elemental Ascetic Kineticist?

Its basically an Avatar: The Last Airbender style bending class, but it does give a lot of monk abilities along with being able to shoot elemental blasts and fly around.

Yes, yes I have. I kind of wrote the guide to the kineticist.

EA gives a bad defense, basically forcing kinetic fist from how I read it (which isn't DBZ like at all), and lackluster features. Going with 1 level of monk feels more like what I would want, but I want this as a monk archetype so they have another chance to attempt it, as EA wasn't what I wanted. At least so I don't have to write it myself.

Really, EA isn't even that good for A:TLA/LOK, as those shows included people making ranged attacks with their element constantly. Karara didn't just give herself water or ice coated Hulk hands and go to work. Taking away our defense (which are generally pretty cool) for the monk's didn't help it feel any more like A:TLA/LOK, it just felt like the two being smashed together without a ton of consideration. Elemental Wisdom just made the class more Multi Attribute Dependant, and Powerful Fist both isn't worth the additional burn (I'm almost certain the class feature meant "increase the burn cost of kinetic fist by X" instead of forcing them to accept burn for a 1 round power buff), making the infusion loss (which there wasn't a ton you could add to it anyways) even more painful.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Edymnion wrote:
I honestly don't think I can explain this any clearer.

Indeed not. You want what is a flat-out power increase, something that applies all the time, in exchange for a mechanic designed to be situational- you want a Rogue with rogue skill points and talents, plus being able to dish out comparable damage to a mainline fighter.

Good luck with that.

It's not that the sneak attack defines the rogue, as you appear to think I'm saying (I'm not, for the record- Rogues that give up Sneak attack for some sort of alchemical trickery could be pretty friggin' sweet,for example).

It's that you want something that makes a given class straight up BETTER than one that's already hurting for reasons to play it.


I would love a jester archetype for bards. Maybe give it luck based abilities both good luck and bad luck.

A (Disney)princess archetype for bards would be great. Just give her wild empathy and some more positive bardic music abilities. Also replace bardic knowledge with a bonus to diplomacy and handle animal checks.


Cole Deschain wrote:
Edymnion wrote:
I honestly don't think I can explain this any clearer.
Indeed not. You want what is a flat-out power increase, something that applies all the time, in exchange for a mechanic designed to be situational- you want a Rogue with rogue skill points and talents, plus being able to dish out comparable damage to a mainline fighter.

LOL So a rogue that can fight as well as someone else's animal companion?

Just look once at bards like the Busker/Archaeologist. They get skill points, spells AND personal combat bonuses. They make your complaints about a rogue with a less swingy damage bonus seem a bit silly. Heck, a rogue can give up 4 skill points and 1/2 sneak attack to get 6th levels wizard spell casting!!! Fighter damage seems a step DOWN from that...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cole Deschain wrote:
(I'm not, for the record- Rogues that give up Sneak attack for some sort of alchemical trickery could be pretty friggin' sweet,for example).

*Finds own petard, hoists self*

Investigator...


Dragon78 wrote:

Giving bardic abilities to martial classes would be interesting. A barbarian that sings while raging, a fighter who is a "dance warrior", etc.

{. . .}

For the last, a few classes have Dawnflower Dervish archetypes (and Bard has **2** of them).

Now I'd like to see a Mime Bard archetype. For starters, gets hybrid Arcane/Psychic spellcasting that replaces Terbal components with Tthought components but makes Somatic components mandatory (the way Verbal components are mandatory for normal Bards and all archetypes so far), and Bardic Performances become fully sight/appearance-dependent.


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I was reminded of something, I'd like a bard/skald that focuses on unarmed combat or a monk/brawler that has incentive to put points into perform (dance), something along the lines of capoeira.


As long as whatever a they pantomime would become real like a sword, force field, wind effect, riding a horse, etc.

Dark Archive

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A Cleric that worships all 4 horsemen and gains a horse mount

Scarab Sages

A revised Reanimator Alchemist wouldn't hurt, nor would a revised Empyreal Knight Paladin, nor a fine-tuned Crossblooded Sorcerer (because losing Spells Known is simply too harsh for Sorcerers).

I've LONG wanted a Magus Archetype meant for wielding a two-handed weapon - restrict its features to replacing Spell Combat and True Magus (which plays off of Spell Combat, unfortunately) so that its compatibility with other Archetypes is otherwise maximized.

I'd also like an Elven Racial Sorcerer Archetype whose magic was Intelligence-based (I've *ALWAYS* felt that making Sorcerer magic Charisma-based was a mistake).

A "Mini-Moses" Halfling Racial Oracle Archetype would suit the Golarion setting very well.

An Android Racial Psychic Archetype that was able to somehow circumvent the "emotion" problem without having to have emotions installed would also be nice.

Another fun idea would be a "magpie/jackdaw" Tengu Racial Occultist Archetype that emphasizes the whole notion of "I collect random trinkets and OH WOW look what this one does!" - probably at the expense of the "outsider contacts/magic circles" class features.

How about a Wayang Racial Wizard Archetype that's similar to the Shadowcaster from Inner Sea Magic, but intended for Wayangs instead of Nidalese Humans (a Wayang Wizard who takes that Archetype as is gets screwed out of a 5th-level feature, since it just gives Darkvision they already have)?

Grand Lodge

A Cavalier Archetype for Sea based adventures
A Cavalier Archetype with Bardsong like abilities to further buff the party
Monk with Kinetisist mojo


Some neat ideas!

Although I have to say I am dead against 'archetypes for the sake of archetypes'.... they actually have to be relevant.

So a ninja archetype based around bardic abilities for example would be a no no!


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Cole Deschain wrote:

Indeed not. You want what is a flat-out power increase, something that applies all the time, in exchange for a mechanic designed to be situational- you want a Rogue with rogue skill points and talents, plus being able to dish out comparable damage to a mainline fighter.

Good luck with that.

Again, no. Rogues already have their nuke in Sneak Attack. This ability to dish out huge amounts of damage is already factored into their class balance (and rogues are still considered to be underpowered at that). Giving up high situational nuke for a moderate straight gain is not a flat out power increase, it is simply leveling the playing field.

Mathematically, an 18-20/x2 crit range and a x4 crit range produce the exact same amount of damage. One is a little damage that applies frequently, one is a lot of damage that applies infrequently. (And no, not getting into all the crit modifying stuff because thats not the point here).

It is not a flat power increase to work out how much sneak attack damage the average rogue gets in a fight, and then spread that out across the average number of attacks a rogue gets in a fight. If done correctly, the baseline damage the Rogue puts out remains unchanged, they have neither gained nor lost combat prowess.

Quote:
It's that you want something that makes a given class straight up BETTER than one that's already hurting for reasons to play it.

Ahem, you're really trying to make the case that anyone that can fight better than a vanilla Fighter is OP and shouldn't be allowed. Really? So... you allow nothing at your table but Fighters and Adepts?

A Cleric can out-melee a Fighter...


Edymnion wrote:


A Cleric can out-melee a Fighter...

In PF I think thats always been a bit of an urban legend - in real games I've never seen even a battle cleric come close to a well designed fighter (especially at mid-high levels) in terms of DPR and general melee survivability.


I wouldn't mind a swarm based eidolon and archetype for the summoner or unchained summoner.

Or even just a series of evolutions to give it the eidolon the swarm quality.

Also, a telepathy evolution would not go amiss.


The NPC wrote:

I wouldn't mind a swarm based eidolon and archetype for the summoner or unchained summoner.

Or even just a series of evolutions to give it the eidolon the swarm quality.

Also, a telepathy evolution would not go amiss.

It is 3pp, but Into the Breach: Summoner does have a swarm body type that any summoner could take, and a Swarm Sculptor archetype that requires that body type and lets you summons swarms and wear them as armor.


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A ninja with bardic performance sounds interesting. Do they have a Kunochi archetype yet?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Edymnion wrote:
Again, no. Rogues already have their nuke in Sneak Attack. This ability to dish out huge amounts of damage is already factored into their class balance (and rogues are still considered to be underpowered at that). Giving up high situational nuke for a moderate straight gain is not a flat out power increase, it is simply leveling the playing field.

By virtue of its being situational, no, incorrect.

A situational trait is always going to be spotty in its application....unless, of course, the problem you claim to have with rogues doesn't actually exist because they can use their situational nuke so often it doesn't matter?

Or are we tangled up in theme, not hard number-crunching? Because if so, the arguments I have made and you have dismissed as "missing the point" come right back into play.

Quote:
]Ahem, you're really trying to make the case that anyone that can fight better than a vanilla Fighter is OP and shouldn't be allowed. Really? So... you allow nothing at your table but Fighters and Adepts?

No.

I am saying that making an existing problem worse is not something I can encourage.

And I am also saying that if you want to play a melee machine, then tacking it onto the Rogue seems like you're scrambling to have all the skill points in the world AND mainline combat capacity. Perhaps you'd like some spellcasting to go with it so you can teleport around the room?

Quote:
A Cleric can out-melee a Fighter...

Never seen it happen. I'm sure you have the statistical number-crunching done to prove it can, but I have never seen it actually play out that way. Ever.

Be thatas it may, feel free to claim victory here. I cede the field, because we seem to be talking right past one another, and there's at least a 50% chance that it's my fault things are going that way.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I really think you are talking past one another. And, I'm sorry Cole, but I think you might be misunderstanding what Edymnion is actually asking for. You're reading "consistent damage instead of situational damage" as "equal to fighter damage per round" and that's not actually the case.

Even if a rogue had his proposed +1 damage per 2 levels with light weapons, they are still working with 3/4 BAB and a rogue's HD, not to mention a rogue's AC (even after adding a rogue's higher dodge). In fact, it is probably underpowered, since the scaling of BAB and damage roughly mirrors the Power Attack feat. Which means while the rogue is now doing more consistent damage with every attack, and doesn't need a flanker or stealth to do it, the fighter is still hitting harder and more often.

Edit: I'm not totally sold that a rogue needs such an archetype, but if they had one, I'd probably want to see them get at least a couple Ranger Style feats in addition to the damage bonus. But I'd also like to see that damage bonus still be precision damage, to put some of the situational nature of the damage back into the build.


AnimatedPaper wrote:
Edit: I'm not totally sold that a rogue needs such an archetype, but if they had one, I'd probably want to see them get at least a couple Ranger Style feats in addition to the damage bonus. But I'd also like to see that damage bonus still be precision damage, to put some of the situational nature of the damage back into the build.

Part of the "situational nature" is the precision damage. Depending on the type of game you play, a large percentage of your enemies can be immune/resistant to your sneak attacks making it so you don't even get your situational burst damage. For situations like that, I'd like an option for non-precision damage and this would IMO be a perfect way to do it. Fighters have ways around DR so it's be nice to see a rogue get around having to have precision damage.


Cruel Illusion wrote:
-A Bard with elemental blasts, infusions ands wild talents instead of spells.

What would you trade for the Kinetic Blast? I get you'd want a Sound Blast, but... instead of what? If you pick to trade Bardic Performance, you pretty much end up with a regular kineticist.

I could see a Kinetic Blast AS a Bardic Performance though, such as "paying" 1 round of Performance for a Kinetic Blast.

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