My players are on the hunt for a pair of wyverns that have been troubling a local community. One of them mentioned selling one of the hides for a profit and using the other to make armor. What would be the value of these hides, assuming they could find a buyer? I know dragonhide armor costs double the price of normal masterwork armor but that tells me nothing about the price of just a skin.
In addition to the wyverns there is a tribe of kobolds. Now, the mayor of the town has offered a bounty of 2gp per kobold tail. But these kobolds have eggs. Would it be evil to smash the eggs? To eat the eggs (or tails for that matter)? To sell the eggs? To keep them until they hatch and rear the young kobolds?
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@Wyvern skin: probably not much compared to normal treasure values. Also, I definitely wouldn't let them make "dragonhide" armor out of wyvern hide, as it's no where close to being as tough as dragonhide is. But I'm not sure what I would let them make, so I can't help you there.
@Kobolds and their eggs: I don't think this forum will ever come to any sort of consensus about whether or not destroying the young (whether eggs or babies) of enemies is evil. And honestly, that's for you to decide. But what I can say for certain is that raising the kobold eggs to the stage where they have tails, and then slaughtering them just for the 20 gp per is almost certainly evil. Selling the eggs could be considered a form of slavery, at which point you have to decide if slavery is evil.
(Disclaimer: what I'm about to say only applies in-world, and isn't a reflection of my real-world values or thoughts.)
The third category of slavery contains all the others that don't fit the above categories: Devils and their soul-binding magic, gods trading things for indentured servants or whatever, all that. Which may or may not be evil, circumstances depending.
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@Kobolds and their eggs: I don't think this forum will ever come to any sort of consensus about whether or not destroying the young (whether eggs or babies) of enemies is evil. And honestly, that's for you to decide. But what I can say for certain is that raising the kobold eggs to the stage where they have tails, and then slaughtering them just for the 20 gp per is almost certainly evil. Selling the eggs could be considered a form of slavery, at which point you have to decide if slavery is evil.
The first form of slavery you mention is very much an evil act in my world. The second form is, too, albeit less so (we use the numerical alignment scale, and the former counts as a 2 point shift, the later a 1-point shift if both sides don't hold that value.)
Regarding the eggs, my party isn't deranged enough to raise the hatchlings just to harvest the tails. But as servants/minions? Maybe.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, then that's just the second kind, isn't it? "Servants/minions" is just a fancy name for slaves, in this case.
Destroying the eggs, to me, is a Neutral act in that it is not evil, but it is not good. Raising them just to harvest their tails is very evil. Raising them to be servants, is Neutral at best. I guess a lot it depends on which god(s) they follow and how faithful they are. I also want to say that this is why I prefer alternatives to the alignment system.
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Well, then that's just the second kind, isn't it? "Servants/minions" is just a fancy name for slaves, in this case.
Servants get pay, rights, and the ability to quit if they choose; slaves don't. (Presumably the PCs try to instill loyalty as they raise the kobolds so that they'll choose to stay.)
P.S. Raising them, especially if they try to instill loyalty, would be incredibly time-consuming and a really inefficient way to get minions. Not an evil ploy, but not a smart one either.
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What about eating the eggs before the hatch (in an omelette or something), or the severed tails of the already-dead kobolds?
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Kobolds are sentient creatures, not animals. Eating their corpses or eggs is on a par with cannibalism. Actually, IIRC on Golarion cannibalism is defined as "eating a fellow sentient being" rather than "eating one of your own kind," so it is cannibalism.
That's not automatically Evil as long as food wasn't the reason to kill them, I suppose, but it's probably a crime, it's certainly disgusting, and most PCs, especially Good ones, shouldn't even want to do it. I hope you don't have a table full of players who specialize in the disgusting and perverse.
More getting a feel for whether or not non-evil people would consider pickled kobold eggs or tail roasts to be a delicacy.
I believe that choosing to eat any part of a sapient creature, when it is not a matter of survival is pretty evil. There may be some grey areas, but it is definitely something that a good character should at least blanch at.
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I believe that choosing to eat any part of a sapient creature, when it is not a matter of survival is pretty evil. There may be some grey areas, but it is definitely something that a good character should at least blanch at.
There's nothing Evil about eating dead people. Plenty of firmly Neutral Lizardfolk eat corpses all the time in the swamp.
The determiner of Evilness is entirely in the reason and method you came by the corpses. If you find corpses on the side of the road, dig in. Their friends or family might be angry, might even kill you, but your alignment is not determined by how much people dislike you. You still go to Heaven.
Similarly, if you end up killing someone in the defense of your own life or that of other innocents, that corpse is just a corpse. Pharasma would probably get in a huff about chowing down, but your Paladin doesn't fall.
Gross =/= Evil
Anyway, they're much tastier when eaten alive.
I believe that choosing to eat any part of a sapient creature, when it is not a matter of survival is pretty evil. There may be some grey areas, but it is definitely something that a good character should at least blanch at.There's nothing Evil about eating dead people. Plenty of firmly Neutral Lizardfolk eat corpses all the time in the swamp.
The determiner of Evilness is entirely in the reason and method you came by the corpses. If you find corpses on the side of the road, dig in. Their friends or family might be angry, might even kill you, but your alignment is not determined by how much people dislike you. You still go to Heaven.
Similarly, if you end up killing someone in the defense of your own life or that of other innocents, that corpse is just a corpse. Pharasma would probably get in a huff about chowing down, but your Paladin doesn't fall.
Gross =/= Evil
Yes it does. :)
Seriously though, it could be argued Lizardmen eat corpses out of survival. It may not be a starvation situation, but they do live in a place where they can not let such meat go to waste. I suppose that things do get complicated when dealing with tribal cultures. It then becomes a balance issue with Imperialism on one side and having a mind so open that your brain falls out on the other.
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I believe that choosing to eat any part of a sapient creature, when it is not a matter of survival is pretty evil. There may be some grey areas, but it is definitely something that a good character should at least blanch at.There's nothing Evil about eating dead people. Plenty of firmly Neutral Lizardfolk eat corpses all the time in the swamp.
The determiner of Evilness is entirely in the reason and method you came by the corpses. If you find corpses on the side of the road, dig in. Their friends or family might be angry, might even kill you, but your alignment is not determined by how much people dislike you. You still go to Heaven.
Similarly, if you end up killing someone in the defense of your own life or that of other innocents, that corpse is just a corpse. Pharasma would probably get in a huff about chowing down, but your Paladin doesn't fall.
Gross =/= Evil
Yes it does. :)
Seriously though, it could be argued Lizardmen eat corpses out of survival. It may not be a starvation situation, but they do live in a place where they can not let such meat go to waste. I suppose that things do get complicated when dealing with tribal cultures. It then becomes a balance issue with Imperialism on one side and having a mind so open that your brain falls out on the other.
But it doesn't have to be a survival situation to justify it. This is not a case of cultural differences because Alignment transcends culture. It's either Evil or it is not, everywhere, all the time. It doesn't suddenly become okay because they live in a swamp. If it was Evil in all other circumstances based purely on the fact that they eat bodies, then it would be Evil for them too. Alignment is absolute, not relative.
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The dragonhide thing only really has stats for the true dragons. You're in your right to allow Wyvern hide to be some weaker version of it, since it'd make no sense for the armor to have any resistances when the wyverns have none but they are a kind of dragon. That's purely in the houserule area though.
Now for the kobolds. It's fairly simple. Murder and torture are evil. Smashing kids and raising species just to hack part of their spines off is pretty much clear cut in its evil. If the kobolds are killing people and being a threat, then killing them becomes a neutral act since you're acting in defense of others right to live, which is good. Cutting the tails off afterwards, while icky, is not an aligned act as corpses are objects, and nobody falls for slicing bread either.
To be clear, nobody is saying murdering a human just to eat them is good, but it's evil because of the murder part, or the torture part if eating them alive. Obviously this applies to creatures with the capacity for morality. Some creatures can be nothing but neutral due to int scores. A tiger eating you doesn't sprout devil horns unless it got nailed by awaken at some point prior.
Anyhow, raising children just to dismember them when part of them is big enough, and smashing their kids is pretty evil. Of course, given kobolds predilection for traps, pitfalls and mazes, most of the kobold noncombatants may be long gone with their kids and eggs before the adventurers even get near the hatchery.
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I think the stance on smashing Kobold eggs depends on whether or not Kobolds in your campaign count as monsters (little alien horrors) or people (dog-faced halflings). There's a whole discussion about that [urk=http://paizo.com/products/btpy8zyl/discuss?The-Very-Last-Book-About-Alignment]in this book about Alignment that you might find relevant.[/url]
But it doesn't have to be a survival situation to justify it. This is not a case of cultural differences because Alignment transcends culture. It's either Evil or it is not, everywhere, all the time. It doesn't suddenly become okay because they live in a swamp. If it was Evil in all other circumstances based purely on the fact that they eat bodies, then it would be Evil for them too. Alignment is absolute, not relative.I believe that choosing to eat any part of a sapient creature, when it is not a matter of survival is pretty evil. There may be some grey areas, but it is definitely something that a good character should at least blanch at.There's nothing Evil about eating dead people. Plenty of firmly Neutral Lizardfolk eat corpses all the time in the swamp.
The determiner of Evilness is entirely in the reason and method you came by the corpses. If you find corpses on the side of the road, dig in. Their friends or family might be angry, might even kill you, but your alignment is not determined by how much people dislike you. You still go to Heaven.
Similarly, if you end up killing someone in the defense of your own life or that of other innocents, that corpse is just a corpse. Pharasma would probably get in a huff about chowing down, but your Paladin doesn't fall.
Gross =/= Evil
Yes it does. :)
Seriously though, it could be argued Lizardmen eat corpses out of survival. It may not be a starvation situation, but they do live in a place where they can not let such meat go to waste. I suppose that things do get complicated when dealing with tribal cultures. It then becomes a balance issue with Imperialism on one side and having a mind so open that your brain falls out on the other.
I am just going to have to agree to disagree here. Plus make some sort of grumble about alignment.
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I am just going to have to agree to disagree here. Plus make some sort of grumble about alignment.But it doesn't have to be a survival situation to justify it. This is not a case of cultural differences because Alignment transcends culture. It's either Evil or it is not, everywhere, all the time. It doesn't suddenly become okay because they live in a swamp. If it was Evil in all other circumstances based purely on the fact that they eat bodies, then it would be Evil for them too. Alignment is absolute, not relative.I believe that choosing to eat any part of a sapient creature, when it is not a matter of survival is pretty evil. There may be some grey areas, but it is definitely something that a good character should at least blanch at.There's nothing Evil about eating dead people. Plenty of firmly Neutral Lizardfolk eat corpses all the time in the swamp.
The determiner of Evilness is entirely in the reason and method you came by the corpses. If you find corpses on the side of the road, dig in. Their friends or family might be angry, might even kill you, but your alignment is not determined by how much people dislike you. You still go to Heaven.
Similarly, if you end up killing someone in the defense of your own life or that of other innocents, that corpse is just a corpse. Pharasma would probably get in a huff about chowing down, but your Paladin doesn't fall.
Gross =/= Evil
Yes it does. :)
Seriously though, it could be argued Lizardmen eat corpses out of survival. It may not be a starvation situation, but they do live in a place where they can not let such meat go to waste. I suppose that things do get complicated when dealing with tribal cultures. It then becomes a balance issue with Imperialism on one side and having a mind so open that your brain falls out on the other.
I feel like you're letting your real world feelings about the issue cloud your judgement of fantasy world morality, but I've been down this road before.
We both "know" we're right, after all. No hard feelings.
Hmm, the fact that eating the produce of a witch's cook people hex is defined to be evil, period, even if you start with a corpse, suggests that cannibalism is evil in Golarion, period. That doesn't mesh well with the cannibal lizardfolk being defined as neutral... someone got sloppy somewhere. Bah.
Hmm, the fact that eating the produce of a witch's cook people hex is defined to be evil, period, even if you start with a corpse, suggests that cannibalism is evil in Golarion, period. That doesn't mesh well with the cannibal lizardfolk being defined as neutral... someone got sloppy somewhere. Bah.
A Neutral race might do some things that are evil some of the time.
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The first thought that entered my mind when reading the thread title was "how many kobolds do you need for a dragonhide armor"...
With kobold in particular it is definitely evil
They're not an inherently evil race.
Most of the playable races seem to be evil in the culturally adversarial sense..
It is shown in lore on most of the races that they can be raised in human society and turn out good... or at the least lawful.
This means to me that you should not slaughter their young ... it's definitely advisable to leave them with a temple for good karma
Kobolds by default are lawful evil. They tend to have a greater good mentality, er so to speak.
I'm still on team "bring them to a temple and leave the priest to that judgment"
It'd be a pretty good back story to be a town member in a village that couldn't prevent all the eggs from being smashed but saved one and had to leave in exile to protect it.
Definitely fitting for a half orc