Methods to acquire Bloodline Arcanas?


Advice


Fairly simple question: What are all the methods of acquiring a Bloodline Arcana?

There are only three that I know of. The first is obvious, by taking the Sorcerer level. The next would be going Sorcerer VMC, but I don't think spending 5 feats for a Bloodline Arcana is really worth it. One or two, sure, but 5 feats is just...yuck. The last is the Blood Arcanist archetype, which isn't necessarily bad, but it runs into similar problems as the VMC, where you're sacrificing 4 Exploits (i.e. your first Exploit won't be until 5th level) to get a Bloodline Arcana.

For those curious as to what spawned this, I decided to revisit my Blaster Caster build, who originally was going to go Human Tattooed Sorcerer for the Orc Bloodline Arcana and basically be able to shoot giant Fireballs of Doom and Sadness. (I wanted to go Crossblooded too for the Draconic bloodline, but from what I can tell, those two archetypes don't stack.)

The only reason I really bothered to go Sorcerer was for the Bloodline Arcana of adding +1 damage per dice. Well, that and the extra spells per day, but that's not really relevant given how much damage the build could do. Being a Wizard would allow me earlier spell progression, as well as more Skill Points and such. On top of that, the Admixture School would allow me to add half my Wizard level to my Fireballs of Doom and Sadness, as well as transmute them to avoid the whole "I'M IMMUNE" problem I'd probably run into.

Back to the question at hand, are there other ways to acquire a Bloodline Arcana, or did I manage to name them all?


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I don't know of any other ways, but it looks like you just want to be a super damage blaster caster, and were willing to consider being a wizard, what if you went cross blooded sorcerer 1, wizard 19 with the trait that increases your caster level by 2 up to your character level? You would end up with a spell casting progression that was slower than a normal wizard, but you would be doing up to 2 extra points of damage per damage dice.

Also worth mentioning, if you go wizard, you could also pick up the creative destruction discovery to get temp hp based on your damage dice from evocation spells.


I re-read the VMC Sorcerer description, and I don't see where it gives you the Arcana.


Dont forget empower spell increases the bonus to dice by half as well. So crossblooded sorcerer 1/wiz 19 empowered fireball deals 15d6+45, not 15d6+30.

Edit: better with scorching ray for single target. 18d6+54 if all rays hit.

Liberty's Edge

Blood Arcanist isn't bad. I mean, yeah, they give up some Exploits, but they get the whole Bloodline, including all its powers, and can use Feats to buy Extra Exploit if they want. It's balanced with Eldritch Heritage in terms of costs, and it's not like that's a bad Feat line.

If your GM is nice you can also get School Understanding (Admixture) on top of this and really go to town.


@ Avadriel: The entire point of going pure Wizard was to avoid the whole "I can't cast spells at the proper levels" issue I'd run into as a Sorcerer, as well as acquire the Admixture benefits to avoid the whole "I'M IMMUNE" problem I'd normally run into in the higher levels.

I'd also probably rather go Tattooed Sorcerer over Crossblooded, since the Draconic or Elemental bloodlines wouldn't always be applicable, and the Orc bloodline powers aren't really that good (at least, since I'm not going Dragon Disciple). I'd rather use the garbage bloodline powers I'd otherwise get to further enhance my ability to kill stuff with my Fireballs of Doom and Sadness. On top of that, I end up delaying my ability to get the spells I want even further, due to losing spells known (meaning I don't even get any spells known until the next level).

@ Gisher: I suppose it doesn't explicitly say, though I can also see how it'd be included (because it tells you to full-on pick a bloodline). I'm fine with excluding it for now, since quite frankly, it's still not a worthy proposition (and boy, did I try to make it work), but I'm not 100% convinced it doesn't grant it.

@ Skaeren: Remember that Empower Spell does not apply to the Intense Spells Evocation feature (it's basically Precision damage for Evocation spells, which I'd still really want, since I can double-roll for Spell Penetration checks). But otherwise, good suggestion with the Scorching Ray.

@ Deadmanwalking: You can't get the Extra Exploits feat until 5th level, which means I have 2-3 "Dead" feats where I can't take it. Granted, I'd rather have stuff like Spell Focus and Spell Specialization, not to mention Mage's Tattoo and Intensify Spell. It also requires me to be pretty damn MAD to make it worthwhile, since your Powers/Exploits are Charisma-based, and your spellcasting is Intelligence-based. It makes a Peri-Blooded Aasimar more appealing, since I gain the +2 to the primary statistics I'll want. It's possible to forgo the SLA to get a +4 Intelligence modifier (which is practically unheard of starting off, meaning I'd probably be the most Intelligent person that ever existed at 1st level).

For a basic point-buy, it'd look like this:

Strength 7
Dexterity 11
Constitution 10
Intelligence 22 (18 + 4)
Wisdom 7
Charisma 18 (16 + 2)

Which is pretty sexy, and any Wizard would eat their heart out to get that starting Intelligence. If, by some miracle, I'm not allowed to acquire the +4 Intelligence (even +4 Charisma if I wanted) by sacrificing the SLA, you can still sacrifice that as well as the Skill Bonuses to receive a +2 Spell Penetration bonus, which is nice.

Also, School Understanding (Admixture) is a valid choice, based on the wording here:

School Understanding wrote:
The arcanist can select one arcane school from any of the schools available to a character with the arcane school wizard class feature...

If I can choose Admixture with the Arcane School class feature, I can certainly choose it with this feature as well. Any GM saying otherwise would be houseruling (which is fine, but is not what the rules say).

The best part is, I can spend just one point of my Arcane Pool, and I can get the Intense Spells benefit for a number of rounds equal to my Charisma modifier (in other words, 4 rounds), as well as use the ability to transform spell types for ~7 casts per day. And that's just based off of 1st level (I can't do this until 5th level, but that's okay, since resistances/immunities won't be common until at least that point).

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Also, School Understanding (Admixture) is a valid choice, based on the wording here:

That's correct. Oddly enough, wildblooded bloodlines are an archetype of the sorcerer (so you can't take them other than by being a sorcerer), whereas wizard sub-schools are not.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
@ Gisher: I suppose it doesn't explicitly say, though I can also see how it'd be included (because it tells you to full-on pick a bloodline). I'm fine with excluding it for now, since quite frankly, it's still not a worthy proposition (and boy, did I try to make it work), but I'm not 100% convinced it doesn't grant it.

1st lvl VMC Sorc only states "select a bloodline". It doesn't say you gain any associated powers, only that you get to select one. Otherwise, it would be completely meaningless to explicitly say that you gain the first level bloodline power at lvl 3. If selecting your bloodline gave everything associated with it (arcana, bonus feats, bonus spells, etc.) then you'd automatically get the first bloodline power at level 1... and then again at level 3... along with the lvl 3 power. Ergo, the only thing Sorc VMC is granting is bloodline powers at the stated levels and you "have the bloodline" at level 1. So, for example, if a feat listed the prereq of "Draconic bloodline", VMC Sorc would qualify you for that feat right from lvl 1 (presuming you took Draconic bloodline); even though you don't have the entire Bloodline class feature nor have earned any of the powers yet.

Liberty's Edge

I'm not sure I'd focus quite that much on Charisma. A 16 is likely plenty, and would allow Dex 14, Con 11, or vice versa, or Dex 12, Con 12, Wis 8.

I mean, how many times a day do you really need admixture's trick? 6/day seems plenty at 5th level, really. Ditto three rounds of Intense Spells.

More defenses seem worth some slight investment, IMO. The 12/12/8 version gets +1 to all saves, +1 AC, +1 initiative, and +1 HP per level. That's enough of a bonus to be worth it, IMO.

But yeah, that sounds very workable.


Thanks for the advice everyone. Granted, I wanted to be able to acquire spells sooner, this originally sparked from a "How do I get Admixture stuff while still getting the Sorcerer Bloodline Arcana?" standpoint, and I got that answer without really sacrificing anything. On top of that, I prefer the Arcanist type of spellcasting (Theoretically unlimited spells known, but can only prepare so many at a given time, and can use any of those spells prepared) over the Sorcerer's "You know that, and that's all you get." So, here's a basic build draft of what the Arcanist Build would fall upon:

Voldoartus Varsoon:
NE Peri-Blooded Aasimar Blood Arcanist (1-20) [Orc Bloodline]
Attributes
Strength 7
Dexterity 12
Constitution 12
Intelligence 22 (18 + 4)
Wisdom 8
Charisma 16 (14 + 2)

Feats (* = Bonus)
1. Spell Focus (Evocation)
3. Spell Specialization (Burning Hands -> Flame Arc @ level 4 -> Fireball @ level 6 -> Delayed Blast Fireball @ level 14)
5. Mage's Tattoo (Evocation)
7. Intensify Spell, Empower Spell*
9. Spell Penetration
11. Quicken Spell, Dazing Spell*
13. Greater Spell Penetration
15. Spell Perfection (Fireball)
17. Spell Perfection (Delayed Blast Fireball)
19. Maximize Spell

Traits
Metamagic Master (Fireball)
Magical Lineage (Fireball)

Exploits
Strengthen Magic (Base Ability, spend 1 Point for +1 CL or +1 DC on spell cast as a Free Action)
School Understanding [Admixture] (Use Admixture power for 6 spells/day, spend 1 Point to receive Intense Spells benefit for 3 rounds)
Metamagic Knowledge (Empower Spell)
Greater Metamagic Knowledge (Dazing Spell, flexible)
Potent Magic (Increases Strengthen Magic to +2 CL or +2 DC when used)
Dimensional Slide (Spend 1 Point for "teleporting" movement)
Spell Tinkerer (Spend 1 Point to Increase or Decrease spell duration by 50%)
Spell Thief (Spend 1 Point to steal a spell affecting a creature)

Damage/Offense Scaling
Level 1 Burning Hands (with Strengthen Magic) @ 2D4+2 (average 7 per target), Save DC 18 (10 Base + 1 Spell Level + 6 Intelligence + 1 Spell Focus), scaling to 5D4+5 (average 17 per target) @ 3rd level.

Level 4 Burning Arc (with Strengthen Magic) @ 7D6+7 (average 31 damage on initial target, reduced by half for other targets), Save DC 19 (10 Base + 2 Spell Level + 6 Intelligence + 1 Spell Focus)

Level 6 Fireball (with Strengthen Magic and Intense Spells) @ 10D6+13 (average 48), Save DC 21 (10 Base + 3 Spell Level + 7 Intelligence + 1 Spell Focus), scaling to Empowered Fireball (with Strengthen Magic and Intense Spells) @ 1.5(10D6+10)+3 (average 70) at 7th level. Spell Penetration @ +10

Level 8 Intensified Empowered Fireball (with Strengthen Magic and Intense Spells) @ 1.5(12D6+12)+4 (average 85), Save DC 22 (10 Base + 3 Spell Level + 8 Intelligence + 1 Spell Focus). Spell Penetration @ +12

Level 10 Intensified Empowered Fireball (with Strengthen Magic and Intense Spells) @ 1.5(14D6+14)+5 (average 99), Save DC 23 (10 Base + 3 Spell Level + 9 Intelligence + 1 Spell Focus). Spell Penetration @ +16

Level 12 Intensified Empowered Fireball (with Strengthen Magic and Intense Spells) @ 1.5(15D6+15)+6 (average 104) and Quickened Intensified Fireball (with Strengthen Magic and Intense Spells) @ 15D6+21 (average 73), Saves @ DC 23. Spell Penetration @ +18

Level 14 Intensified Empowered Dazing Fireball (with Potent Magic and Intense Spells) @ 1.5(15D6+15)+7 (average 105) and Quickened Intensified Fireball @ 15D6+22 (average 74), Saves @ DC 26. Spell Penetration @ +22.

Level 16 Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball (with Potent Magic and Intense Spells) @ 1.5(20D6+20)+8 (average 128), Save @ ~DC 31, and Quickened Dazing Fireball @ 10D6+18 (average 53), Save @ ~DC 27. Spell Penetration @ ~+28/24.

Level 18 Empowered Intensified Delayed Blast Fireball (with Potent Magic and Intense Spells) @ 1.5(22D6+22)+9 (average 157), Save @ ~DC 33, and Quickened Empowered Intensified Fireball @ 1.5(15D6+15)+9 (average 107), Saves @ ~DC 31. Spell Penetration @ +30

Level 20 Empowered Intensified Delayed Blast Fireball (with Potent Magic and Intense Spells) @ 1.5(24D6+24)+10 (average 172), Save @ ~DC 35, and Quickened Empowered Intensified Fireball @ 1.5(15D6+15)+10 (average 108), Saves @ ~DC 33. Spell Penetration @ +32

So far, I'm really liking the damage output, considering I'm using primarily Fireball and other Area of Effect spells, which come dangerously close to 1-rounding CR-Equivalent foes, and outright destroying any lesser foes. Single-Target Spells may end up destroying such harder foes even faster, but it is unknown.

I did rough estimates of the damage dice and Save DCs, however, attempting to take into consideration whether I would use Potent Magic for +CL or +DCs, as appropriate. Taking a Balor as a common example, who has a +17 Reflex Save would need a 16 or higher to make a save against my Quickened Fireball spell, whereas it needs an 18 or higher on my Delayed Blast Fireball spell, meaning there's a good chance it will fail its save. Additionally, thanks to the Admixture Schooling, I can transform the Fireball spells to function as Acid or Cold damage, instead, meaning none of his Immunities can ruin my day.

Also note that I can substitute things like Dazing in for the preliminary spellcasts so that they become basically useless for the remainder of the encounter, assuming they're still alive, allowing the martials to rush in and clean up. I also put in typical Spell Penetration calculations for 8th level onward, as Spell Resistance will become commonplace by then. In the early game, a roll of 5+ can beat Spell Resistance, and by the time I hit 13th level, I can beat Spell Resistance as long as I don't roll a 1. (It can happen, but it's similar to the above Saving Throws argument.)

Well folks, I believe I finally created the ultimate Blaster. Thanks for your help!


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Idea,
L1 Sorceror 1 (Crossblooded, Orc- Draconic)
L2-20 Arcanist 1-19 (take bloodline development and your Arcanist levels stack with your sorceror lvl)

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Bloodline Development ...

If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.

This gets both bloodline Arcana, 3 bloodline feats (chosen from either bloodline), bloodline powers at 1st, 5th, 9th, 15th, and a20th (capstone) (all chosen from either bloodline). It costs only 1 exploit, not 4 exploits and magical supremacy...

Finally, use Eclectic Training, Inner Sea Magic, pg 22, to get your casting level in Arcanist back...


I don't really need Draconic if I'm grabbing Admixture, as its benefits in the lategame will be pretty weaksauce since most everything will have high resistance or immunity to Fire (and not so much for the other elements). I choose Fireball because it's a good area of effect spell with decent scaling and damage dice. On top of that, Delayed Blast Fireball is basically the same thing and scales even higher (which I can apply my trait to that thanks to the retraining feature).

Note, it says powers and abilities of the bloodline. The Bonus Feats aren't a part of that, so you would not gain them. (Even if I did, all I'd really want is Widen Spell, and that's not particularly worth it, especially without Selective Spell, as the chances to clip my fellow party members with the spell just doubled.)

I'd also delay my spellcasting further, which isn't really advisable, considering I already use Sorcerer progression as an Arcanist, and I'm feat-starved to acquire all of the good spellcasting feats, so it's not particularly advisable.


I know that empower spell doesn't work on that feature. I mean, for example, a crossblooded half-orc/draconic sorcerer. It also means that an empowered magic missile is 1d4+3 per missile, if having the half-orc bloodline.

Also, don't forget your free +2 int by being venerable. Just remember to cast, once per day (I think), the anti-aging spell. Or craft your own continuous item.


For blasting single targets at higher levels, Intensified Battering Blast is incredibly potent. With the ability to add +4/5 CL quite easily as an Arcanist with the right feats, it's not hard to be throwing 21d6 no-save force damage plus +20 bullrush plus knock prone by 10/11. Even at mid-levels it's easy to be slinging the equivalent of a force-damage Scorching Ray that slaps targets around badly. Dimensional Slide or just normal positioning makes it a hilarious pinball game with even powerful targets.


I just looked at that Battering Blast spell, and I must say, that is absolutely, and ridiculously overpowered for a 3rd level spell.

That being said, I wouldn't particularly have the to-hit to make it feasible in the later levels. I'd have 10 BAB + ~4 Dexterity. Against a Balor, I need a 6 or higher to hit its Touch AC. The average Touch AC you're looking at for that level is ~25, meaning on average I'd whiff this quite hard against, well, any other target. It's safe to say, however, that I'd easily Bull Rush him and make him fall prone. Against something like a Tarrasque, you're looking at 20 CL + ~12 Intelligence + 30 = +62 to the roll. A CMD of 66 would put me at failing on a 3 or less.

Also, presuming full investment into that, let's take an Intensified Empowered Maximized Persistent (because why not?) Battering Blast (with Traits, it's a 9th level spell, and with Spell Perfection, it can be a variance of 8th, 7th, or 6th level as well), which puts us at 6(0.5(7D6)+49)+10, or 376 points of damage on average, with no saving throw to reduce that damage, and must make 2 DC 29 Reflex saves or be knocked prone (as the 5-6 Bull Rush checks will almost 100% confirm the knockback). We can also apply a Quickened Intensified Dazing (yet another 9th level spell, or a variance of 5th, 8th, or 6th level with Spell Perfection) Battering Blast on top of that, which puts us at another 6(7D6+7)+10, or 196 points of damage on average, with no saving throw to reduce that damage, with a minimum Reflex DC of 29 to avoid being Dazed for 3 Rounds.

So, at max level, within a single round of combat, I've dealt over 572 damage to a single target, probably Bull Rushed him into oblivion, with practically zero immunities or resistances to be applied to that damage. The Tarrasque's average HP is 525, able to go into -34 HP before it's considered "dead," meaning it has an effective HP of 559. Meaning I can practically 1-round any creature in existence, and can do so reliably due to the manipulative powers of Spell Perfection taking slots ranging from 5th to 9th level, and saving my lower-tier ones for practicality or for dire straits.

Presuming I was anticipating fighting a Tarrasque before the battle, I could transport it into a Permanent Timeless Major Negative Energy Greater Demiplane. It'll have to save each round (it can roll 1's), meaning it will continue to take Negative Levels, and eventually becomes "Slain", transforming into a Wraith (and thereby losing its supernatural effects of its previous form).


I don't really have relevent advise to your question. I'm not sure if there is relevant advise since every heavy blasting build tends to resort to loosing a few levels.

But, I would suggest checking out Words of Power. They make Blasting a lot more flexible and I wouldn't really want to blast without them. You loose out on spell versatility for most schools, but you can create brand new types of fireballs in your element of choice.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Looked at this build, liked it quite a bit.

Then I discovered:
"She does not gain any other abilities when using this exploit in this way, such as bloodline arcana"

So Bloodline Development doesn't grant Arcana, so I don't get the +1/die damage increase.

What am I missing?


^I think you're right, that Bloodline Development will never give you the Bloodline Arcana. However, if you dipped Sorcerer, even 1 level is enough to give you the Bloodline Arcana, although if the Bloodline Arcana scales with Sorcerer level, it won't be very good if the rest of your levels are something else. However, the way the Draconic and Orc Bloodline Arcana are written, they scale with number of dice rolled with the spell instead of scaling with Sorcerer level, so these should still work the way the OP wants (which sounds, um, OP . . .).

(Aside note: I hadn't thought about this before, because I was looking into dipping Bloodrager and using Bloodline Development to progress the Bloodrager Bloodline (which doesn't have a Bloodline Arcana anyway).

Now here's a really weird thought: What if you went Arcanist or Exploiter Wizard VMC Sorcerer? VMC Sorcerer gives you Bloodline Powers anywhere from 2 to 6 levels behind, but if you got Bloodline Development, it would quickly catch them up. I'm going to assume an unwritten rule that it couldn't get your Bloodline Power level to be more than your hit dice, but even so, this would be pretty cool for letting you do something crazy like go Eldritch Knight after getting 6 levels of Arcanist or Exploiter Wizard (which doesn't progress your Sorcerer Bloodline Powers, although the VMC would continue to do its own advancement). This would NOT get you the Bloodline Arcana, though, since VMC Sorcerer doesn't give you Bloodline Arcana, and Bloodline Development doesn't insert it, as noted above.


With Magic Tactics Toolbox, you can exchange your level 1 bloodline power for +1/die.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Take Bloodline Development for a Bloodline Power and instead take a Bloodline Mutation for Blood Havoc?

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