So I have always ran my games with a 20 pt buy and have had very little trouble keeping appropriate CR levels challenging for my players. Recently one of my players has purchased basically every book on Hero Lab and has been bringing character with usually high stats. At first I thought he had cheated his point buy but upon inspection his point buy has been met fairly. As an example he is bring a STR 25 character to the table before his rage effect hits with his race being Asamir. Now the math works out when you add in his heritage bloodline adding an additional +2 to his STR and his dump stat of Wisdom being a 7 in total.
I suppose what I am asking is does anyone else feel these supplements are beginning to unbalance the CR system? The five man I have are at level 7 average so my usual CR is 8 for a easy and 9 for standard. However 90% of the time my sessions are ending with many players displeased that they didn't get a chance to land a blow. My answer was to add special circumstances to make the battles have a kinda puzzle to be able to defeat the boss. This tactic isn't a very every fight useable situation as it will get played out.
So what are some suggestions from the community to make these games more enjoyable while at the same time not limiting the creation of characters. I feel it may be nigh impossible to meet proper CR expectations for proper leveling without limiting books or shopping monster in the CR 12 level and just adjusting the leveling speed from medium to slow. Now that I know will upset the group and set them back to level 6 and this group I have been running for over two solid years and this is our third campaign so I really don't want them to feel robbed. Any suggestions?
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The CRB alone made Pathfinder unbalanced.
Frankly, this sounds utterly wrong, and someone is clearly misreading something.
I'm assuming this is an angel-kin Aasimar, which gets +2 STR and +2 CHA. If you burn all your 20pt buy on getting 18 STR then that's still only 20 STR. Not 25.
If he is cherry picking from the variant aasimar abilities table without your permission then clearly he is misunderstanding how those work. Even then, at most that'd give him another +2 for 22, which is still not 25.
Bottom line: Your player is b++@~*&$ting you.
By buying all the books, do you mean including 3rd party stuff?
Because, yeah, that's going to introduce some additional imbalances.
As the GM, you absolutely have say over what books/material is allowed in your game, and you have veto power for any interactions you don't find balanced.
For instance, ragebred skinwalker with the extra features feat? Yeah, not happening in my games.
Don't be afraid to say you find something too strong, and don't feel like you have to be the bad guy or be a jerk about it, either - especially with a group you've been with a few years; instead, have a discussion.
Our group has nerfed, buffed, and chosen to pretend some options don't exist for years now to achieve a balance we enjoy. Most commonly when a player stumbles onto something that proves to be too powerful, we end up nerfing ourselves without being asked.
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BECOMING???!!! HWHAWHEIUAWHEIUAWHEAIUWEHAWIUEHWIUWHEIUWEHUAWA!!!
No, seriously... The most overpowered stuff is right there in the CRB.
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BECOMING???!!! HWHAWHEIUAWHEIUAWHEAIUWEHAWIUEHWIUWHEIUWEHUAWA!!!
No, seriously... The most overpowered stuff is right there in the CRB.
You mean those Rogues and Fighters, right? 'Cause we Wizards are balanced juuust right.
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You mean those Rogues and Fighters, right? 'Cause we Wizards are balanced, juuust right.BECOMING???!!! HWHAWHEIUAWHEIUAWHEAIUWEHAWIUEHWIUWHEIUWEHUAWA!!!
No, seriously... The most overpowered stuff is right there in the CRB.
What is more unbalanced than having Core Fighters, Monk and Rogues right next to Clerics, Druids and Wizards? Not to mention stuff like Quicken Spell, Maze, Simulacrum and Wish...
Hell! Core Rogue is obsolete before you even reach it! At that point you've already gone through Bards and Rangers!
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You mean those Rogues and Fighters, right? 'Cause we Wizards are balanced, juuust right.BECOMING???!!! HWHAWHEIUAWHEIUAWHEAIUWEHAWIUEHWIUWHEIUWEHUAWA!!!
No, seriously... The most overpowered stuff is right there in the CRB.
What is more unbalanced than having Core Fighters, Monk and Rogues right next to Clerics, Druids and Wizards? Not to mention stuff like Quicken Spell, Maze, Simulacrum and Wish...
Hell! Core Rogue is obsolete before you even reach it! At that point you've already gone through Bards and Rangers!
Actually, that whole setup sounds pretty well balanced to me. So long as Wizards are at the top of the pyramid, everything is fine. ;)
he dumped to a 7 wisdom, that be so scary to me if he was in my group as a player. his will save has to suck. he is unbalanced.
If he is a level 7 scion of humanity aasimar barbarian then he is probably rocking a +5 from superstition. With a +2 cloak he has a +7 will save when raging. That's the same as a 12 wisdom fighter with a +2 cloak and Iron Will. Not amazing, but not exactly "sucking" either.
Sounds like your player is just min-maxing there character. It can be done with just about any character and has been around since there very beginning of Pathfinder.
So to your question, "Is Pathfinder becoming unbalanced?" the answer is no but yes. It has always been this way. Granted to get to what your player is doing it does take some time and effort.
Now some others have already stated that which creatures you through at them or how the battle field is set up can change a encounter to a major degree. From your description it sounds like this character is taking care of the enemies before the other players have a chance to do anything, correct me if I am wrong. You could write up an encounter where the enemies are something that Mr. McBeatstick has trouble with that others can deal with easier.
Also I just re-read what you posted and realized that your main point was about the CR system and if it is unbalanced and needs to be reworked. I would have to say yes and no. Yes, because with everything that has come out and that it has been eight years since the system had been implemented it does need some tweaking. But I also say no because it was also, in my mind, a guide line to help with the building encounters and to help new DMs learn to create there own encounters.
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I seriously think playing this game without core would balance it so much more, like no joke.BECOMING???!!! HWHAWHEIUAWHEIUAWHEAIUWEHAWIUEHWIUWHEIUWEHUAWA!!!
No, seriously... The most overpowered stuff is right there in the CRB.
Lets look at where the bad and stupidly good classes came from:
Bad
Core: 3 - Rogue, Fighter, Monk
Non Core: 4 - Cavalier, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, Brawler?
Broken
Core: 4 - Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, Druid
Non Core: 5 - Summoner, Witch, Arcanist, Shaman, Oracle
Oh, and just for fun
Vaguely Balanced
Core: 4 - Bard, Ranger, Barbarian, Paladin
Non Core: 9 - Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus, Bloodrager, Slayer, Hunter, Investigator, Skald, Warpriest
This is counting the entire core line aside from unchained and the Occult stuff(which is mostly reasonable, if I understand correctly).
A little under half of the brokenly good or brokenly bad classes are in core, while over two thirds of the reasonably balanced classes are non-core.
This is counting the entire core line aside from unchained and the Occult stuff(which is mostly reasonable, if I understand correctly).
If you do put all the books you get:
Bad
Core: 3 - Rogue, Fighter, Monk
Non Core: 4 - Cavalier, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, Brawler, kineticist (Some would put kineticist in vaguely balanced)
Broken
Core: 4 - Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, Druid
Non Core: 5 - Summoner, Witch, Arcanist, Shaman, Oracle, Psychic (least broken of the broken).
Vaguely Balanced
Core: 4 - Bard, Ranger, Barbarian, Paladin
Non Core: 9 - Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus, Bloodrager, Slayer, Hunter, Investigator, Skald, Warpriest, Unchained Rogue, Unchained Summoner, Unchained Monk, Unchained Barbarian, Occultist, Mesmerist, Medium, Spiritualist, Vigilante (as far as I can tell)
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No. Not any more than it already was. The GM's job for the most part is to taylor your game to fit the style and type of players you have in your group. You don't seem to be doing that. Your player has changed the way he plays with his new supplements, so you must adapt. Set limits. I have had more problems with min maxing than anything else, so limit how high or how low an ability score can go at character creation for starters. Ban stuff that isn't making it fun for you as well as them. Just because you are the GM, doesn't mean you shouldn't have fun to. After all you put more work into a campaign than any of the players do. I like to see my players succeed, but I want it to be because they were clever or lucky, not because they had overwhelming numbers on their side. Your players will talk about the close victories for years because they outsmarted the bad guyway before they ever talk about the quick victories they achieved because of broken builds. YMMV though.
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I'm intrigued. What exactly would you take out? Obviously, core classes have to go, which is a nice start. Core spells are the next logical step. Would you take out core feats? Equipment? Races? Skills?I seriously think playing this game without core would balance it so much more, like no joke.BECOMING???!!! HWHAWHEIUAWHEIUAWHEAIUWEHAWIUEHWIUWHEIUWEHUAWA!!!
No, seriously... The most overpowered stuff is right there in the CRB.
Okay, few minor changes, Power Attack/Deadly Aim/TWF feats/Combat Expertise are now automatic, the improved/greater combat maneuver feats are now 1 feat. Rest of the feats are gone, a lot of them are filler anyways.
Core races are fine, leave 'em.
All core spells that aren't healing/condition removal are gone, maybe save the polymorph spells. Everything else, gone. Reason here is that the most busted spells are core, they just are. Summoning should be more specific especially, summoning spells are silly versatile.
Items are fine, skills are fine...ish, although I'd use unchained rules where I could. Magic items would involve some more pick and choosing, but they're okayish for the most part.
All classes except Paladin, Bard, and Barbarian are gone (maybe save ranger). Reason here is that Cleric's poorly designed (too general), Monk's trash, Fighter is trash, Sorc/Wiz are just too general for my taste, Druid is definitely too strong, Rogue's trash, and Ranger is on the cusp. Get rid of them, and let the more flavorful classes like Oracle, Warpriest, Hunter, and others start picking up the slack with weaker but more interesting class features.
This is just off the top of my head, I'm sure I could do a more detailed list later.
Bottom line: Your player is b+$+##@+ting you.
They are level 7 so a +1 ability score boost and a +4 belt isn't to big of a stretch.
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Actually, that whole setup sounds pretty well balanced to me. So long as Wizards are at the top of the pyramid, everything is fine. ;)You mean those Rogues and Fighters, right? 'Cause we Wizards are balanced, juuust right.BECOMING???!!! HWHAWHEIUAWHEIUAWHEAIUWEHAWIUEHWIUWHEIUWEHUAWA!!!
No, seriously... The most overpowered stuff is right there in the CRB.
What is more unbalanced than having Core Fighters, Monk and Rogues right next to Clerics, Druids and Wizards? Not to mention stuff like Quicken Spell, Maze, Simulacrum and Wish...
Hell! Core Rogue is obsolete before you even reach it! At that point you've already gone through Bards and Rangers!
Hwaheuiwaehwiaueahiwu! Indeed! Most pyramids are pretty stable!
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A little under half of the brokenly good or brokenly bad classes are in core, while over two thirds of the reasonably balanced classes are non-core.
Yeah, but...
1- Non-core stuff is split in multiple books
2- Most other books don't have a power gap as wide as Fighter/Monk/Rogue- Cleric/Druid/Wizard
3- Some of the most broken spells are in the CRB. And what makes full-casters overpowered is their spell lists, no their class features.
I seriously think playing this game without core would balance it so much more, like no joke.BECOMING???!!! HWHAWHEIUAWHEIUAWHEAIUWEHAWIUEHWIUWHEIUWEHUAWA!!!
No, seriously... The most overpowered stuff is right there in the CRB.
Possibly, but there is great stuff in the CRB... The problem is that the bad stuff is really, really bad.
Bottom line: Your player is b+$+##@+ting you.They are level 7 so a +1 ability score boost and a +4 belt isn't to big of a stretch.
So he burned all his pt buy on 18 STR, plus 2 from racial bonus, burned a lot of his money on a +4 belt, and spent his level bonus on +1 for 25 STR. It's level 7. This isn't particularly an issue, nor does it have anything to do with Aasimars. If anything it shows the problem with core, as all of the above is from CRB.
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Letting him dump down to a 7 Wis is probably not a good start tbh, you're the GM it's entirely cool for you to tell your players you don't like dumping below a certain number, or no stats to start above an 18 for example if you feel that will make a better game. That said, eventually around the mid levels yes, you're certainly seeing characters who focus on one stat to creep up into the mid twenties.
The thing is, if they focused that much on a single stat they left weaknesses which you can then introduce challenges to, great Str and rubbish Wis? Throw charms, sleeps, dominates, etc his way. Great Str rubbish skills? Throw Diplomacy checks at him to resolve a fight that's either far tougher and can be avoided or have great repercussions if they kill the enemies.
As has also been mentioned, one more character in the group means your fights need to be at least 25% tougher than the regular encounters would be for 4 players. Quick and easy fixes are things like adding the Advanced Template (essentially +2 to everything a monster does), giving max HPs, ensuring the spells and such creatures have are good, that they use consumables to buff themselves and above all, fight intelligently (or as much as is possible depending on what they are). All this together can definitely help, but most of all, talk to your players, lay out some ideas on what will make the game fun for you and for them, work out a middle ground that everyone's happy with.
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BECOMING???!!! HWHAWHEIUAWHEIUAWHEAIUWEHAWIUEHWIUWHEIUWEHUAWA!!!
No, seriously... The most overpowered stuff is right there in the CRB.
Yeah. The game was unbalanced from the CRB, however each additional resource can (though doesn't always) increase the imbalance.
The biggest problem I see with imbalance is a lot of martial abilities that let them do more damage. Martial characters are surprisingly good at damage (most of them). They really don't need help in that department. What they need are ways to bypass obstacles like casters have.
Need to get to the other side of that giant pit fighter? Hope you have a really good acrobatics check. Meanwhile the wizard is going to cast Dimension Door.
Need to get to the other city you were in a month ago? Fighter better start walking, or maybe travel by coach. Wizard, teleport?
Enemy flying up in the air out reach? Fighter, "Where was my bow again, better dust it off". Wizard, "Lol, I'm already flying and using greater invisibility".
Martial characters need to be able to access things like this, not deal more damage.
You have to adapt the CR to the group and it's makeup. Always been that way and always will be. The group I am gming now are undead killing machines. To be a challenge the undead CR I use is around 14-16 for a group of five 8th level characters.
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BECOMING???!!! HWHAWHEIUAWHEIUAWHEAIUWEHAWIUEHWIUWHEIUWEHUAWA!!!
No, seriously... The most overpowered stuff is right there in the CRB.
Yeah. The game was unbalanced from the CRB, however each additional resource can (though doesn't always) increase the imbalance.
The biggest problem I see with imbalance is a lot of martial abilities that let them do more damage. Martial characters are surprisingly good at damage (most of them). They really don't need help in that department. What they need are ways to bypass obstacles like casters have.
Need to get to the other side of that giant pit fighter? Hope you have a really good acrobatics check. Meanwhile the wizard is going to cast Dimension Door.
Need to get to the other city you were in a month ago? Fighter better start walking, or maybe travel by coach. Wizard, teleport?
Enemy flying up in the air out reach? Fighter, "Where was my bow again, better dust it off". Wizard, "Lol, I'm already flying and using greater invisibility".
Martial characters need to be able to access things like this, not deal more damage.
But if we let them do more than what the average high-school student could do it'd wreck the verisimilitude! :P
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The GM is the scale used to balance Pathfinder
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<snip>But if we let them do more than what the average high-school student could do it'd wreck the verisimilitude! :P
Yeah.
D&D (from which Pathfinder stems) is based on the somewhat eclectic mashup of medieval recreationism and magic of pure fantasy. So anything that dwells in the Not-Magic Camp is expected to adhere to the public's perception of medieval times, whereas those in the Magic Camp have no such constraints placed upon them.
So a dragon (or wizard) being able to fly is kosher, but a heroic warrior leaping a chasm without magical assistance is "too wuxia" for many people.
/eyeroll.
Pathfinder offers a diverse array of choices, and these choices aren't all equal. Some are great, most are okay, and some are terrible, depending on the player's intent. This means that PCs are going to vary dramatically in power, and the GM is going to need to adjust.
Maybe it's just my background in 2nd Ed, but my first piece of advice is both the easiest and probably going to make people uncomfortable: Fudge.
- If monsters die too fast, give them more hitpoints. Try max per HD. Or double max if that's not enough.
- If monsters can't hit anyone due to enormous defenses, give them more attack bonuses.
- If a handful of monsters aren't a challenge, increase the number of them.
- Experience Points aren't some form of mythical substance hidden within a creature's body that they release on death. It's a measure of how challenging something was and how much the PCs learned from it. You don't need to increase XP for having to rebalance encounters to suit a well-optimized combat machine of a party, nor reduce XP if you have a disparate social-focused bunch of misfits.
Everything in the CRB and bestiaries is based on an assumption of how effective the party is going to be. Given the breadth of scope this can encompass, it means that it isn't always going to perform on the table as it is intended to. Some parties will find APL+1 to be brutally hard. Others will find APL+4 to be a cakewalk. It's a "best guess baseline" at best.
Every encounter being a walkover gets boring after a while. Extremely slow leveling can make games get stale. Exceedingly fast leveling can feel like the game is out of control, and make players lose touch with their characters. Your job is first and foremost, to maintain fun. Not adhere to the rules.
If that makes you or your players uncomfortable: Slow XP track and feel free to use larger groups of monsters and liberal use of templates to beef up the challenge. It is, in my opinion, a much cruder fix, but with care it can work.
Just my 2c
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[...] Now the math works out when you add in his heritage bloodline adding an additional +2 to his STR [...] The five man I have are at level 7 average [...]
Just to point this out, Orc and Abyssal bloodlines give a +2 to Strength at level 9, which becomes level 11 if he accessed them through the Eldritch Heritage feat line.
That said, I just want to say I agree with Claxon above. It is pretty frustrating when you play a martial character and you spend a lot of time just trying to figure out how to contribute in some situations when the answer isn't, "I full attack.".
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[...] Now the math works out when you add in his heritage bloodline adding an additional +2 to his STR [...] The five man I have are at level 7 average [...]Just to point this out, Orc and Abyssal bloodlines give a +2 to Strength at level 9, which becomes level 11 if he accessed them through the Eldritch Heritage feat line.
That said, I just want to say I agree with Claxon above. It is pretty frustrating when you play a martial character and you spend a lot of time just trying to figure out how to contribute in some situations when the answer isn't, "I full attack.".
This honestly why I at times want to remove all classes that aren't 4th level/6th level spell casters. These classes are honestly the most balanced classes that provide players with the ability to contribute to the game besides just dealing damage, while usually still being very capable of dealing damage, and without getting too high on the chain of overpowered spells. Basically it homogenizes the power level options available to all players and keeps everyone in the same league.
I'm going to echo what a bunch of people have already said, Pathfinder was born unbalanced. Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers, Druids, and Paladins are all horrendously OP, while Fighters, Monks, and Rogues are absolutely pitiful and just can't compete.
If anything, the newer supplements have brought MORE balance to the game by providing classes that aren't full casters but are still competitive. I find it irritating in every one of these threads that everyone just ignores how broken full casters are and focuses their anger on the few martial classes that aren't completely terrible.
Not at all. I allow all Paizo publications, including Mythic, and a wide variety of third party publishers. No problem keeping the game balanced as long as everyone follows the rules and doesn't ask for game breaks.
Paladins? I've never found Paladins particularly OP. They don't seem any more or less powerful than rangers or barbarians.
Paladins? I've never found Paladins particularly OP. They don't seem any more or less powerful than rangers or barbarians.
Paladins can be a problem if your boss fights are one smiteable big bad. At least this seems to be the cause of most people's problem with them.
Paladins? I've never found Paladins particularly OP. They don't seem any more or less powerful than rangers or barbarians.Paladins can be a problem if your boss fights are one smiteable big bad. At least this seems to be the cause of most people's problem with them.
One-Smitable-Big-Bad-With-Really-Poor-Tactics, that is... I mean... I once saw someone complaining about Pallies being OP because one of them killed a Lich with a full attack... Any Lich who gives the Paladin a chance to smite and full attack deserves to be one-shot!
Paladin is actually one of the best balanced classes in the game... In fact, they could use a few buffs, like getting 4 skill points per level and having Kn(Planes) and Intimidate as class skills.
Also... Pretty much every buff that every martial class needs. :P
Paladins? I've never found Paladins particularly OP. They don't seem any more or less powerful than rangers or barbarians.Paladins can be a problem if your boss fights are one smiteable big bad. At least this seems to be the cause of most people's problem with them.One-Smitable-Big-Bad-With-Really-Poor-Tactics, that is... I mean... I once saw someone complaining about Pallies being OP because one of them killed a Lich with a full attack... Any Lich who gives the Paladin a chance to smite and full attack deserves to be one-shot!
Paladin is actually one of the best balanced classes in the game... In fact, they could use a few buffs, like getting 4 skill points per level and having Kn(Planes) and Intimidate as class skills.
Also... Pretty much every buff that every martial class needs. :P
I totally agree that every martial should have 4 skill pts per level at least. On the topic of paladins, smite is bad ass, but the thing I find OP is lay on hands as a swift action. Pretty much guarantees paladins can never die. At least that's been my experience with paladins.
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I totally agree that every martial should have 4 skill pts per level at least. On the topic of paladins, smite is bad ass, but the thing I find OP is lay on hands as a swift action. Pretty much guarantees paladins can never die. At least that's been my experience with paladins.
Paladins are amazing tanks... Which is good, because that's what they're supposed to be. They take the hits so that their allies don't have to. That's their role. To compensate for that, they're more than lacking in other areas .
Considering how high is the average damage output in this game , they need a way to mitigate damage without being a burden to their allies .
I think the real problem is that Fighters and most other martial classes lack a way to do the same. There are many ways to challenge Paladins, both in and out of combat. They are really good tanks, because that's their job.
The real problem is that most other martials lack similar tools.
WIS 7 on a melee DPR-machine?!?
Muhuhaaa!
Tick-tock-TIMEBOMB!
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Who gets hit with Will-Saves the 1st by any reasonable competent caster? The "stupid brutes"-looking dudes! And who does indeed have a bad-Willsave? Mr. MAX-STR POWER! - dump WIS.
He will run, he will cower, or worst cast do some stupid suggestions or even become charmed into protecting his new ebst friend, or outright dominated.
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If one character does have a higher AC, amount of HP, to-hit chance and avg. damage (etc.) they shouldn't be treated as being equally strong as the other characters.
Yeah. They should probably be treated as being weaker than the other characters, because they're probably martials and the druid can simply ensorcel them without a second thought.
That's one of the issues; there are at least six "attack surfaces" on a character -- armor class, CMD, touch AC, and three saves; a character built to defend only two or three of those is generally a disposable paper cup. Similarly, a character who can only attack one or two of those surfaces is very easy to render irrelevant.
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Well ofc., you'll need to take casting and other abilities into account as well.
I am. The characters with high to-hit chance (full BAB), high damage, and high AC almost always have no other abilities beyond that.
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Since when did the game need to be balanced.... this is not designed as a pvp game were every class must be balanced with each other so they can match up 1v1 and it be a fair fight....
this is a group role playing game and if your group is destroying your encounters or one person is taking the spot light it is your job as the DM to "balance" the game and make it challenging.
I've always found the CR system to be guideline rather than a rule. Certain opponents are stronger or weaker than their CR may indicate. In addition, the makeup of the PC group, as well as player skill can make certain opponents easier/stronger.
As far as additional books causing power creep - yes, it definitely happens. I don't think there is a simple mathmatical fix though.
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What the hell is power creep if it doesn't effect the power ceiling? Is the wizard still King? Is the rogue still a pawn? If the answer is yes, then not much has changed.
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Since when did the game need to be balanced....[...]
if [...] one person is taking the spot light it is your job as the DM to "balance" the game.
Under what other circumstances is this kind of nonsense acceptable?
If I go to the dentist and he drills the wrong tooth, it's not my job to fill the cavities he missed.
If I go to the mechanic and he forgets to re-attach the cylinder head, it's not my job to put it back on.
If I go to a restaurant and get served raw chicken, it's not my job to go back into the kitchen and cook it all the way through.
If I get onto an airplane and the pilot doesn't know how to find San Bernadino, it's not my job to navigate.
If I hire a carpenter and he forgets the fourth leg of my table, it's not my job to work the lathe.