Magical Ranged Weapons and Ammo


Rules Questions

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Sovereign Court

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I need a clear distinction about magical ranged weapons and ammo. I’m using bow and arrows as an example.

If you have a masterwork bow with normal arrows the to hit modifier is +1 and the damage modifier is +0

Also if you have a normal bow with masterwork arrows the to hit modifier is +1 and the damage modifier is +0

And then if you have a masterwork bow with masterwork arrows the to hit modifier is +1 and the damage modifier is +0 because the bonuses do not stack.

If you have a +1 bow with normal arrows the to hit modifier is +1 and the damage modifier is also +1

Also if you have a normal bow with +1 arrows the to hit modifier is +1 and the damage modifier is also +1

And then if you have a +1 bow with +1 arrows the to hit modifier is +1 and the damage modifier is also +1 because the bonuses do not stack.

And finally if you have a +2 bow with +1 arrows the to hit modifier is +2 and the damage modifier is also +2 because the bonuses do not stack but you take the higher bonus

Let me know if this is right or wrong.


That is correct.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Here's a brain twister: +2 bow, +1 human bane arrows against a human foe. Is it +2/+2d6+2, +3/+2d6+3 or +4/+2d6+4?

Spoiler:

Its +3/+2d6+3

Dark Archive

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Start simple: +1 Shock Bow, +1 Flaming Arrows = +1 Shock Flaming attack.

So, +2 Human Bane for +4/+2d6+4.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Keith Apperson wrote:

Start simple: +1 Shock Bow, +1 Flaming Arrows = +1 Shock Flaming attack.

So, +2 Human Bane for +4/+2d6+4.

Not sure that's correct.

Bane makes the enhancement bonus higher for the attack in question. A +1 Human Bane arrow would change to a +3 Human Bane arrow. The bonus of the arrow and the bow are considered separately and the highest counts. Since the bow itself is not bane, then the +2 of Bane does not add to the +2 of the Bow. The +3 of the Arrow supersedes the +2 of the Bow.

Scarab Sages

Andrew Christian wrote:
Keith Apperson wrote:

Start simple: +1 Shock Bow, +1 Flaming Arrows = +1 Shock Flaming attack.

So, +2 Human Bane for +4/+2d6+4.

Not sure that's correct.

Bane makes the enhancement bonus higher for the attack in question. A +1 Human Bane arrow would change to a +3 Human Bane arrow. The bonus of the arrow and the bow are considered separately and the highest counts. Since the bow itself is not bane, then the +2 of Bane does not add to the +2 of the Bow. The +3 of the Arrow supersedes the +2 of the Bow.

Pure enchantment does not stack. Special abilities are shared between the two.

The human bane changes the effective enchantment, but it does not change the actual enchantment.
So! When a +1 human bane arrow and a +2 flaming bow launches at a human...
The arrow becomes a +2 human bane flaming arrow. As the best enchantment bonus is selected for the arrow and special abilities are shared, as the bow passes its abilities to its ammunition(usually). Since it is launching at a human, the effective enhancement is increased by 2 and it does an additional 2d6 damage.
So, as launched the arrow is a +2 flaming human bane arrow. As it hits, so when you roll the dice, the arrow is a +2(with an additional +2 from bane) arrow with an additional +2d6 from bane and +1d6 fire from flaming.


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This is just another reason not use enchanted ammo

Scarab Sages

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Lorewalker wrote:
When a +1 human bane arrow and a +2 flaming bow launches at a human

actually the arrow (against a human) is +3 (which beats the +2 from the bow) , and hits for 1d8 (assuming longbow) + str (if composite) + 2d6+3 (bane) + 1d6 (fire)

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

^ that.

Grand Lodge

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Rules question, not PFS specific, so flagged to move there.

And probably needs a clarification, as I can see both sides on this one, but tend toward the +4 side as the "correct" answer.

Of course, making it a +5 bow, and +1 Human Bane arrows complicates it further.

Obviously, against non-Bane targets, it is +5 X Bane when it hits, so +5 to hit and damage.
Against the Bane target is where it gets interesting, again.
+5 or +7 to hit, +2d6+5 or +2d6+7 to damage?

Edit: I assume it would depend on the order of application of Bane's effects, really.
Does the +2 bonus apply when you fire it, or just when it is about to hit a Bane target?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Although Bane can increase a weapon's total enhancement bonus to above +5, a +1 Human Bane Arrow is only a +3 weapon vs. Humans. If you fired such an arrow at a Human from a +5 Longbow, it would deal 1d8+2d6+5.

You don't get to add the +3 enhancement bonus from the arrow on top of the +5 enhancement bonus from the longbow.

I also flagged for the Rules Forum, just forgot to mention it earlier.

Scarab Sages

Nefreet wrote:

Although Bane can increase a weapon's total enhancement bonus to above +5, a +1 Human Bane Arrow is only a +3 weapon vs. Humans. If you fired such an arrow at a Human from a +5 Longbow, it would deal 1d8+2d6+5.

You don't get to add the +3 enhancement bonus from the arrow on top of the +5 enhancement bonus from the longbow.

I also flagged for the Rules Forum, just forgot to mention it earlier.

You've got this completely wrong.

Human bane is an ability. It adds to enhancement vs a certain type.
When you nock your arrow, the bow applies all its applicable abilities to an arrow and applies its enhancement. As enhancement bonuses do not stack, the highest is the one used during the rolls. Now, you fire the bow from my example at something that is not a human and the arrow is still a +2 enhancement arrow with human bane and flaming.

Fire that arrow at a human, and it is a +2 enhancement arrow with human bane and flaming and the human bane activates. Making it effectively a +4 arrow that also does +2d6 extra damage.

The bow can not activate as human bane(In an example where flaming and human bane are reversed), as human bane is applied to the ammunition of a bow with human bane. So that is not even a question. (As is noted in the ranged weapon magic ability chart)

But, an arrow that is human bane can not activate before the enhancement and special ability sharing process is completed. You do not find out after an arrow is fired if the arrow or bow enhancement wins out. As its enhancement is always increased by 2, you should already know which one is higher before the +2 increase.
Just as if someone was wearing a +4 enhancement item and a +2 enhancement item for the same ability or skill. They will always have both, but only one applies to rolls. If the +4 item were dispelled and temporarily lose its magic, the +2 would then apply to rolls for the character.
And, if the character had an ability that increases enhancement bonuses by 1, both would get increased. But only the +4(now +5) would apply instead of the +2(now +3).

Even if, in your view of how this works, the arrow is a +1 and the bow is a +2, and bane works as you say(that bane activates before the bow applies its enhancement) the bows enhancement is still applied. They just don't stack. And, since it is applied, it will be modified by bane as well. Making the bow have two enchancement bonuses; +3 and +4. The +4 is the highest of the two and is thus what you use on the roll.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

As a final point to put this to rest... say the bow is a +1 human bane bow and you use an non-enchanted arrow... bane is always applied to ammunition. This is stated in the ranged magic weapon chart, where it states certain abilities are imparted to ammunition from the bow and some activate on the bow. By your logic, a non-enchanted arrow fired from a +1 or +2 bow is only ever counted as +2 arrow which it gets from human bane. As, the arrow's bonus is +0 and human bane on an arrow only applies to the arrows 'natural' enhancement bonus, as per your description.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You could have saved yourself a wall of text by simply stating that you believe Bane is factored after being fired from the bow, rather than choosing the higher of the two bonuses at the beginning.

I interpret the text in the Core Rulebook to mean that you simply go with the higher bonus, and not an "order of operations" approach.

Do you have any citations to support your position?

Scarab Sages

Nefreet wrote:

You could have saved yourself a wall of text by simply stating that you believe Bane is factored after being fired from the bow, rather than choosing the higher of the two bonuses.

I interpret the text in the Core Rulebook to mean that you simply go with the higher bonus, and not an "order of operations" approach.

Do you have any citations to support your position?

Did you read my whole post? I even wrote a part that covers not using an order of operations approach. My approach was merely the easiest way of thinking about it and my conjecture given the way the rules are explained.

It simply doesn't matter when each ability and enhancement is applied. They could all be applied, in random order, the second before it hits the target and the arrow from my original example would still be a +4 human bane(+2 already applies) flaming arrow.

As both enhancement bonuses are on the arrow, the bow's and the arrow's. These belong to the arrow from then onward, and anything that increases its enhancement bonus would increase both.

So, a +1 arrow fired from a +2 bow has an enhancement bonus of both +1 and +2. The highest being what applies to its rolls. Activate human bane, and now it is an arrow with an enhancement bonus of both +3 and +4. The highest still being what applies to its rolls.

Activate human bane before you apply the +1 from the arrow(remember, I said applying all bonuses randomly still gives what I said) or +2 from the bow, it is a +2 arrow up from +0. But, it is not an instant effect. The moment you apply the +1 it becomes +3 and the moment you apply the +2 it is now a +4.

I'll quote myself...
"Just as if someone was wearing a +4 enhancement item and a +2 enhancement item for the same ability or skill. They will always have both, but only one applies to rolls. If the +4 item were dispelled and temporarily lose its magic, the +2 would then apply to rolls for the character.
And, if the character had an ability that increases enhancement bonuses by 1, both would get increased. But only the +4(now +5) would apply instead of the +2(now +3)."

Scarab Sages

It seems to me that the mistake being made here is on how stacking and not stacking works.
If a bonus stacks, both get added together.
If a bonus does not stack, they do not get added together and the highest applies. But, the lower one does not disappear.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So, IYO, a +1 Human Bane Arrow fired from a +5 Longbow would deal how much damage to a Human?

1d8+2d6+5
1d8+2d6+7
1d8+2d6+8

We can leave Flaming out of this, as it's an unimportant distraction when Bane is the topic.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:

So, IYO, a +1 Human Bane Arrow fired from a +5 Longbow would deal how much damage to a Human?

1d8+2d6+5
1d8+2d6+7
1d8+2d6+8

We can leave Flaming out of this, as it's an unimportant distraction when Bane is the topic.

Assuming nothing like Gravity Bow, nor feats, and just a +5 longbow, no Str mod; and a +1 Human Bane arrow:

1d8+2d6+7

1d8 base from the arrow
+2d6 from Bane
+5 from the longbow's enhancement
+2 from the Bane enhancement

Against a non-Baned target, it would still do:
1d8+5, see above for breakdown of sources

Quote:

Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.

Do you agree that a +5 longbow firing a +1 Bane arrow fires a +5 Bane arrow?

What makes it different for a +2 longbow firing a +1 Bane arrow?
It would be firing a +2 Bane arrow, not so?

What prevents the Bane from applying to both the inherent +1, as you state, and to the imparted +2 or higher bonus from the bow that is imparted to the arrow?
As long as the total enhancement bonus, of course, doesn't cross the +10 limit, or exceed the base +5 basic enhancement limit before Bane or similar is applied.

Equally, is this any different than the Inquisitor Bane ability gained at 5th level?

Quote:
Bane (Su): At 5th level, an inquisitor can imbue one of her weapons with the bane weapon special ability as a swift action. She must select one creature type when she uses this ability (and a subtype if the creature type selected is humanoid or outsider). Once selected, the type can be changed as a swift action. This ability only functions while the inquisitor wields the weapon. If dropped or taken, the weapon resumes granting this ability if it is returned to the inquisitor before the duration expires. This ability lasts for a number of rounds per day equal to the inquisitor's level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.

Scarab Sages

Nefreet wrote:

So, IYO, a +1 Human Bane Arrow fired from a +5 Longbow would deal how much damage to a Human?

1d8+2d6+5
1d8+2d6+7
1d8+2d6+8

We can leave Flaming out of this, as it's an unimportant distraction when Bane is the topic.

Flaming was in there to show how inherit and inherited abilities function. Originally it did serve a purpose, but I agree it is no longer needed.

The arrow inherits a +5 enhancement bonus. You can not purchase greater than a +5 enhancement bonus, as weapons cannot have higher than a +5 bonus. Now, by RAW, the bonus that bane imparts is +2 to the enhancement bonus above its actual enhancement. The description uses the words 'actual bonus' to differentiate the original enhancement from the bonus given by bane. This is very much like any other effect that gives an effective total.
This means bane does not increase its actual enhancement, it simply sets the bonus to 'actual bonus' +2.

Thus, despite the fact that weapons can not have a higher than a +5 enhancement, this ability would allow a temporary +7 from a +5 weapon. Though, its actual bonus remains +5.

Thus, a medium sized +5 human bane arrow from a longbow does 1d8 + 7 + 2d6 damage.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I can't see +7 as a possibility. "Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies".

You're firing a +3 Arrow from a +5 Bow.

Scarab Sages

Nefreet wrote:

I can't see +7 as a possibility. "Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies".

You're firing a +3 Arrow from a +5 Bow.

You've got this wrong again.

You're separating bow and arrow. But, the arrow doesn't care where its bonuses come from, it has the combined bonuses of the bow and itself. Just, due to stacking issues, only the highest applies.

The arrow receives the bow's bonus regardless. But, due to not stacking, only the highest applies. Thus, the arrow is +1 and +5. Human bane adds +2 to its enhancement. Making the arrow a +3 and +7 arrow. The highest applies, leaving it a +7 bonus.

This is true whether the arrow or the bow is human bane. In your example it matters which one has the enchantment. But, since the bow always gives its bane to its ammunition the arrow will always be activating human bane.

Even if you apply human bane before you apply the bow's bonus, which seems to be what you are doing, the bow's bonus would be increased by bane when it is applied to the arrow. As bane increases the enhancement bonus constantly, not only once upon whatever time you believe it is activated.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

No. You don't get to apply the enhancement bonus from Bane twice.

It's a +5 weapon, and a +3 ammunition. Not a +7. The +5 overrides the +3, and you're left with the 2d6 from Bane.

So 1d8+2d6+5

Scarab Sages

Nefreet wrote:

No. You don't get to apply the enhancement bonus from Bane twice.

It's a +5 weapon, and +3 ammunition. Not a +7. The +5 overrides the +3, and you're left with the 2d6 from Bane.

It is not applied twice. It doesn't add +4. It only adds +2. It does this for the enhancement bonus. If the item has more than one enhancement bonus, it applies to each enhancement bonus.

The arrow has two enhancement bonuses. One which is given to it by the bow and one which is enchanted into the arrow.

The bow never changes. It is only the enhancement given to the arrow by the bow that changes. As the arrow has an ability that increases its enhancement bonus.

The bow ALWAYS gives its enhancement to the arrow. It does not matter if the arrows enhancement is higher. But, they do not stack. Normal stacking rules apply. Thus, only the highest applies.

It is no different than wearing two items that give a luck bonus to the same ability at different amounts and having the trait that increases luck bonuses by 1. Both would be increased. But only the highest can have its effect.

You agree that I can wear two items that give a same-typed bonus to the same thing, right? And I can have an ability that increases that type of bonus, yes? And that, due to same-type not stacking in most cases, I will only apply the highest... but that I still have both on me, correct?
The arrow is exactly the same.


To Lorewalker and Nefreet:

Having read through your exchange, I think part of the difficulty comes from the way that particular pieces are happening simultaneously in these scenarios. I'm wondering if separating some of those pieces might help clarify things. I note that each of you has stated that your method is independent of order of operations, so a change in sequence shouldn't affect the outcome. So I offer the following alternative way to mix Bane and two different enhancement bonuses.

Scenario I

(1) I have a +1 Human Bane Arrow in my hand.
(2) I cast Greater Magic Weapon (+2) on it.
(3) Using a non-magical Bow, I now nock the arrow and fire it at a Human.

Question A: How much damage will this deal to the Human?

Question B: How is this any different than firing a +1 Human Bane Arrow from a +2 Bow?

Scarab Sages

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Quote:

Ranged Weapons and Ammunition core rulebook p468

The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Quote:

Bane core rulebook p469

Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon’s enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe.

example

a +5 Longbow firing a +1 Human Bane arrow
effectively the arrow is +3 vs Humans

as the +5 from the bow is the higher bonus it applies as per quote above

the arrow will do 1d8+2d6+5


I'd agree more with Lorewalker on this case.

You're not firing a +3 arrow from a +5 bow, you're firing a +1 bane arrow from a +5 bow.
The bow imparts its enhancement bonus on the arrow and the higher of the two bonuses applies, leaving you with a +5 bane arrow.
If shot at a target to which the bane applies, such an arrow's enchancement bonus becomes +7.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:

No. You don't get to apply the enhancement bonus from Bane twice.

It's a +5 weapon, and a +3 ammunition. Not a +7. The +5 overrides the +3, and you're left with the 2d6 from Bane.

So 1d8+2d6+5

Interestingly enough, this is what I said above.

A +2 Bow and a +1 bane arrow would only be +3 vs the bane.

The Exchange

It comes down to what the "weapon" is. Chris quoted the Bane property:

Quote:
Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon’s enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe.

The bow is +5.

The arrow is +1 human-bane.

Is the "Bane weapon" - which has an enhancement bonus +2 better than its actual bonus - the arrow, or the bow?

Spoiler:
Yes, it's the arrow

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So interestingly enough, lets take a look at another property of ranged weapons and ammunition.

Ranged weapons confer their special abilities to their ammo as long as the special ability has a superscript 3. Enhancement bonus is one of those things that confers to the ammo.

So a +1 Bow with a non-magical arrow would be +1. A +1 Dragon Bane Bow with a non magical arrow, vs. Dragons, would be +3 to hit and +2d6+3 damage.

A +2 Bow with a +1 Human Bane arrow would be a +2 to hit and damage vs. all non-human targets. However, against human targets, the enhancement bonus of the arrow is +3, which will not stack with the +2 enhancement bonus of the Bow. Which would make it +3 to hit and +2d6+3 damage vs. Humans.

Where I think folks are getting mixed up, is when the rules say the enhancement bonus of the Bow confers to its arrows. They are then saying that this enhancement bonus is now the Arrows enhancement bonus which is then modified by Bane. But that isn't the case.

The arrow's normal enhancement bonus is +1. Bane increases that to +3. But Bane on the arrow would not increase the conferred Bow enhancement bonus of +2, because that is not the arrow's "normal" enhancement bonus.

At any given moment, you must consider the enhancement bonus of the arrow and the bow separately, and then take the highest. So when Bane is not triggered, the bonus is +2. When Bane is triggered, the bonus is +3.

Scarab Sages

Andrew Christian wrote:

So interestingly enough, lets take a look at another property of ranged weapons and ammunition.

Ranged weapons confer their special abilities to their ammo as long as the special ability has a superscript 3. Enhancement bonus is one of those things that confers to the ammo.

So a +1 Bow with a non-magical arrow would be +1. A +1 Dragon Bane Bow with a non magical arrow, vs. Dragons, would be +3 to hit and +2d6+3 damage.

A +2 Bow with a +1 Human Bane arrow would be a +2 to hit and damage vs. all non-human targets. However, against human targets, the enhancement bonus of the arrow is +3, which will not stack with the +2 enhancement bonus of the Bow. Which would make it +3 to hit and +2d6+3 damage vs. Humans.

Where I think folks are getting mixed up, is when the rules say the enhancement bonus of the Bow confers to its arrows. They are then saying that this enhancement bonus is now the Arrows enhancement bonus which is then modified by Bane. But that isn't the case.

The arrow's normal enhancement bonus is +1. Bane increases that to +3. But Bane on the arrow would not increase the conferred Bow enhancement bonus of +2, because that is not the arrow's "normal" enhancement bonus.

At any given moment, you must consider the enhancement bonus of the arrow and the bow separately, and then take the highest. So when Bane is not triggered, the bonus is +2. When Bane is triggered, the bonus is +3.

Yes it would increase the enhancement given to it. This is where you are wrong.

That is like saying if I have a trait that increases luck bonuses by 1, but someone else casts a spell on me that gives me a luck bonus I do not increase that bonus by 1.

It does not matter the source of the enhancement. So long as the arrow HAS an enhancement, it will get increased by 2 from bane when fired at the correct type of target.

The bow will always give its enhancement to the arrow. The arrow will always increases its enhancement vs the correct target type. Thus, the bow's enhancement will always be increased. If the bow's actual enhancement is higher than the actual enhancement of the arrow, the bow's actual enhancement +2 will be the final number used.

Just as you said, the bow confers its enhancement bonus to its ammunition. The arrow is 'enchanted' by the bow, just as if another character were to cast a buff spell on your character.

You can not separate the bow's and arrow's enchantments and abilities, as they are all given to the arrow(normally, there are some bow enchantments that bows do not confer).

Always given to the arrow.

The 'source' of the ability, once again, does.. not.. matter. Just as the source of a buff on a character does not matter in most cases. You calculate each ability as if it belonged to the arrow, as it does the moment the ability is conferred to the arrow.

Scarab Sages

chris manning wrote:
Quote:

Ranged Weapons and Ammunition core rulebook p468

The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Quote:

Bane core rulebook p469

Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon’s enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe.

example

a +5 Longbow firing a +1 Human Bane arrow
effectively the arrow is +3 vs Humans

as the +5 from the bow is the higher bonus it applies as per quote above

the arrow will do 1d8+2d6+5

You are not applying bane to the +5 from the bow. The +5 is conferred to the arrow, as if it were the arrows enhancement. Making the arrow a +5 arrow. Bane increases all enhancement bonuses on the arrow, thus you have now a +7 arrow. Bane does not care where its enhancement comes from. Some wizard at home, a spell or whether it is given to it from a bow. All that matters to bane is that the arrow has an enhancement, which it then increases by 2.

You're treating bane as if it gets activated before you nock your arrow, and then only applies at that instant.

But, so long as the arrow is flying towards a correct type creature bane continues to apply.

If, somehow, someone were to cast greater magic weapon on a +1(bane not calculated to show actual enhancement) bane arrow in flight and conffered a +3 to the arrow, bane would apply to that new enhancement as well.
Giving a total of +5 when it hits its target.
(Fun note, this is possible if you ready an action to cast at the arrow as it hits an opponent but not if you ready against the firing of the arrow. Due to the fact that readied actions, like AOOs, happen just before the triggering effect. Thus the arrow is in the air already only for readied actions against the arrow hitting a target)


Andrew Christian wrote:

...

Where I think folks are getting mixed up, is when the rules say the enhancement bonus of the Bow confers to its arrows. They are then saying that this enhancement bonus is now the Arrows enhancement bonus which is then modified by Bane. But that isn't the case.

The arrow's normal enhancement bonus is +1. Bane increases that to +3. But Bane on the arrow would not increase the conferred Bow enhancement bonus of +2, because that is not the arrow's "normal" enhancement bonus.

At any given moment, you must consider the enhancement bonus of the arrow and the bow separately, and then take the highest. So when Bane is not triggered, the bonus is +2. When Bane is triggered, the bonus is +3.

I've read and re-read the description for Bane, and I can't find the word 'normal' anywhere. What I see, instead, is the word 'actual.'

PRD wrote:
Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. ...

That is important because 'actual' doesn't mean normal, permanent, intrinsic, original, unmodified or anything else that would refer to the +1 enhancement bonus in your example.

.

The relevant definition of 'actual' is:

"Dictionary.com wrote:
2. existing now; present; current:

(I'm just linking to one dictionary, but I did check a number of others and found no significant differences.)

.

When you fire a +1 arrow from a +2 bow, the only enhancement bonus that applies to the arrow is the +2.

PRD wrote:
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

That +2 may not be the 'normal' bonus or the 'permanent' bonus or the 'original' bonus, but that is irrelevant. It is the 'current' bonus and thus the 'actual' bonus. The arrow will actually get a +2 bonus on attack rules and damage rolls because +2 is the present value of the enhancement.

So a +1 Human Bane arrow fired from a +2 bow will have an actual +2 enhancement bonus that Bane will increase to +4 if used against a Human.

Silver Crusade

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Oh god, what have I done!?


Alexander McGuire wrote:
Oh god, what have I done!?

LOL! You twisted everyone's brains. ;)

Sovereign Court

Gisher wrote:
Alexander McGuire wrote:
Oh god, what have I done!?
LOL! You twisted everyone's brains. ;)

That is correct !

Grand Lodge

Alexander McGuire wrote:
Oh god, what have I done!?

You opened another can of worms. Happy fishing!

Scarab Sages

chris manning wrote:
Quote:

Ranged Weapons and Ammunition core rulebook p468

The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Quote:

Bane core rulebook p469

Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon’s enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe.

example

a +5 Longbow firing a +1 Human Bane arrow
effectively the arrow is +3 vs Humans

as the +5 from the bow is the higher bonus it applies as per quote above

the arrow will do 1d8+2d6+5

Example.

+1 human bane arrow
+5 bow
You nock your arrow and then fire it at a human.
At some point between nocking your arrow and it hitting the human this happens in some arbitrary order...
------
the bow gives the arrow a +5 enhancement bonus, the arrow now applies +5 instead of +1 as its actual enhancement.

the arrow's human bane activates as a constant effect, increasing its actual enhancment bonus by two and its damage by 2d6.
------

This means that the arrow is +1 and +5 enhancement arrow, and its enhancement is increased by two and it deal 2d6 extra damage.
Being that enhancement bonus does not stack, the arrow's actual enhancement bonus is now +5. Bane increases its actual enhancement bonus by 2. Thus, it is a +7 arrow which does +2d6 damage.

You are completely misreading the 'applies' line to mean the bow is not giving its enhancement to the arrow.
But it definitely does, every single time. Even if the arrow was a +4 and the bow was a +2. They just do not stack, so you only apply the highest. In this case, it is a +4 arrow and not +2, but the +2 is still there hidden behind the +4. Only the highest applies.

You can not apply bane to only the arrow's 'natural enhancement'. You must apply it to any and all enhancement the arrow has. Even if the enhancement came from greater magic weapon or the bow itself.

Shadow Lodge

[tiny and petty people meme]


Consider the following questions:

If I fire a +1 merciful arrow from a +2 fiery longbow, how much will it do?
a) 1d8+2d6+2 subdual
b) 1d8+1d6 subdual, 1d6+2 lethal

If I fire a +1 holy arrow from a +4 longbow against an enemy with damage reduction 10/good how much damage will it do?
a) 1d8+2d6+2
b) 1d8+2d6+1, with 3 damage being blocked by damage reduction

If I fire a +1 humanbane arrow from a +2 longbow at a human, how much damage will it do?
a) 1d8+2d6+4
b) 1d8+2d6+3

Where "a" is consistent with the approach of "Combine bonuses, apply special properties" and "b" is consistent with the approach of "Add up bonuses and properties separately, then combine them together with bonuses and properties overlapping, but not stacking.

I believe that "a" is the correct approach, since the rules are worded in such a way that bows bestow their bonuses and special abilities on the arrow (and the arrow doing damage) instead of having the bow and the arrow do damage as separate entities.

edit:format

Scarab Sages

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:

Consider the following questions:

If I fire a +1 merciful arrow from a +2 fiery longbow, how much will it do?
a) 1d8+2d6+2 subdual
b) 1d8+1d6 subdual, 1d6+2 lethal

If I fire a +1 holy arrow from a +4 longbow against an enemy with damage reduction 10/good how much damage will it do?
a) 1d8+2d6+2
b) 1d8+2d6+1, with 3 damage being blocked by damage reduction

If I fire a +1 humanbane arrow from a +2 longbow at a human, how much damage will it do?
a) 1d8+2d6+4
b) 1d8+2d6+3

Where "a" is consistent with the approach of "Combine bonuses, apply special properties" and "b" is consistent with the approach of "Add up bonuses and properties separately, then combine them together with bonuses and properties overlapping, but not stacking.

I believe that "a" is the correct approach, since the rules are worded in such a way that bows bestow their bonuses and special abilities on the arrow (and the arrow doing damage) instead of having the bow and the arrow do damage as separate entities.

edit:format

a from the first one should have a final +4 and not +2, as the bow is +4.

But yes, I agree a is the correct approach. The bow's transferable abilities are not separate from the arrow's abilities, as they are transferred to the arrow. Thus, belong to the arrow.


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"When you have magical bows and arrows, does a weapon ability which increases the enhancement bonus apply to the enhancement bonus of the bow, the enhancement bonus of the arrow, or whichever is higher?"

I think that is a FAQ-worthy question, since the actual written text is not entirely clear.

I know that people have opinions on how the current text should be interpreted, but that doesn't mean that text couldn't use some clarifying.

-j


Jason Wu wrote:

"When you have magical bows and arrows, does a weapon ability which increases the enhancement bonus apply to the enhancement bonus of the bow, the enhancement bonus of the arrow, or whichever is higher?"

I think that is a FAQ-worthy question, since the actual written text is not entirely clear.

I know that people have opinions on how the current text should be interpreted, but that doesn't mean that text couldn't use some clarifying.

-j

It's actually pretty clear. The rule says "Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition." A bane bow turns its arrow into a bane arrow. A bane arrow adds +2 to its enhancement bonus and 2d6 damage. By the rules, a bane bow cannot add a +2 to its own enhancement bonus.


Lorewalker wrote:


a from the first one should have a final +4 and not +2, as the bow is +4.

Well, darnit. That's what I get for altering that example to make it more dramatic.

Grand Lodge

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Umm... Andrew Christian and Nefreet agree on the rule.

1.) I am going to side with them.

2.) I am going to go prepare for the end times.


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion Subscriber

I definitely see Bane and the bow's enhancement bonus stacking. The bow confers its enhancements to the arrow, combining them (but not adding them) to form the total. It seems pretty clear that a +5 bow firing a +1 bane arrow fires a +5 bane arrow, which would effectively be +7 if the target is the right type.

If you don't force an awkward order of operations, it feels right. The argument against seems stretched and has to make some assumptions about how Pathfinder does things "behind the scenes" like a videogame's codebase, when Pathfinder doesn't have a back-end.

To me, the argument against appears as nonsensical as saying if the arrow were +1 flaming, and the fire damage die rolled a 3 or less, that it doesn't apply because "the bow adds +5 damage, that's more than the 4 total from the arrow (+1, +3 fire) so the +5 overrides it".


gatherer818 wrote:

I definitely see Bane and the bow's enhancement bonus stacking. The bow confers its enhancements to the arrow, combining them (but not adding them) to form the total. It seems pretty clear that a +5 bow firing a +1 bane arrow fires a +5 bane arrow, which would effectively be +7 if the target is the right type.

I like to think of it this way:

A +5 flaming bow firing a +1 flaming bane arrow fires a +1 +5 flaming flaming bane arrow (+1 and +5 overlap, but don't stack and flaming can only apply once).


The issue I have is this
People who say that bane applies to the arrow before it gets the bows ability are doing strange stuff.
They say that the +5 bow is being added to a +3 arrow that does +2d6 damage.
This means that they aren't adding +5 to a +1 bane, but +5 to a +3 that does 2d6 more damage, as they've removed the bane property and are dealing with an arrow that now was innately changed prior to firing.
To me using this approach should mean that a +5 bane bow shooting a +1 bane arrow would be 1d8+4d6+7. Because the arrow is a +3 arrow that is doing +2d6 damage and not a +1 bane arrow when it checks to add the bows abilities. so the +3 is overridden by the +5 and then we add bane from the bow too, since the arrow no longer has bane but is an arrow that was modified by bane. Which increases the enhancement and add another 2d6 damage.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

If a +5 longbow fires a +1 Human Bane Arrow, then I believe the final damage (assuming target is Human) should be 1d8+2d6+7 (+ any other static damage)

Reasoning, as related in a hopefully amusing story, because I've been watching some anime lately:

+5 Longbow is exceptionally even-handed. She doesn't care if you're a dragon, an elemental, human, whatever. Any arrow she fires, she gives it a flat boost. "I believe in you, Arrow-san!" Longbow-senpai says.

+1 Human Bane Arrow, on the other hand, has a bit of a bug up her butt about humans. We're not sure why, some presume it has to do with a dark alley, a gunshot, and two arrows laying broken on the filthy ground while a smug human walks away laughing. Anything else and she's fine. Dragons? Whatever. Elementals? Yawn. But humans? "FROM THE HEART OF HELL I STAB AT THEE!" Human Bane Arrow-chan says.

One day, Longbow-senpai and Human Bane Arrow are out on an adventure together with their owner, a dapper looking Elven gentleman who is completely inconsequential to this story. An enemy is sighted, and Longbow-senpai and Human Bane Arrow-chan get ready. "Is it a human? I hate humans!" Human Bane Arrow-chan asks.

"I don't know, Human Bane Arrow-chan, we're both inanimate objects without any way of perceiving the world around us and can only communicate within the confines of this story because it suits the author's intent." Longbow-senpai replies.

"That makes sense, Longbow-senpai." Human Bane Arrow-chan nods her agreement.

Just then, Human Bane Arrow-chan is grabbed from the quiver and nocked in Longbow-senpai. "I believe in you, Human Bane Arrow-chan! You can do it!" Longbow says, giving the arrow a +5 enhancement bonus.

Human Bane Arrow-chan flies straight and true, because this story would be pointless if the archer missed his shot, and sinks into the meaty thigh of a human bandit.

"HUMAN! I CAN TASTE IT! ARRRRGH! THIS IS FOR MY PARENTS! I AM THE NIGHT! I AM VENGEANCE! I AM HUMAN BANE ARROW-CHAN!" the arrow screams silently because it is in reality a non-sapient object incapable of speech. It bites the bandit, sinking deeper into his thigh.

The bandit dies, because he was fool enough to be a CR 1/2 creature going it alone against an elven archer who is high enough level to warrant having a +5 Longbow.

tl;dr - When the arrow is fired, it becomes a +5 Human Bane arrow, because the +5 is greater than the +1 enhancement bonus on the arrow. If it hits anything other than a Human, it hits as a +5 arrow. If it hits a human, then the bane kicks in, and it becomes a +5 arrow, boosted by +2 for bane, with an added +2d6 damage.


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FAQ
Bane can increase a weapons enhancement bonus to +7.
+10 bonus-equivalent is a hard limit.

The actual enhancement bonus of arrow and bow do not stack, you always use the higher enhancement bonus.

Abilities from a magic bow are applied to the arrow, so all abilities apply to the highest enhancement bonus.

caveat 2 from magic weapon table wrote:
2 Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.

If your bow and arrow exceed +10 equivalent (+5 holy, bane bow and +1 brilliant energy, flaming arrows) there are no rules to prioritise what you lose. I would allow the wielder to choose.

Any combination of +5, +1, and human bane on a bow and arrow becomes +7 to hit, 1d8+2d6+7 damage.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That FAQ doesn't clarify how ammunition stacks or does not stack.


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I'm not sure I understand the problem.
Facts:
a) bows and ammunition use the highest enhancement bonus between them.
b) bows convey special abilities on their ammunition.

conclusion:
It doesn't matter how the abilities are arrayed, you end up with a +5 human bane arrow.

The only time you have an issue is if your highest enhancement bonus and special abilities exceed +10 equivalent. There are no rules saying which abilities fall away.

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