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My understanding is that the result would be a +5 human bane arrow.
Which would then deal 1d8+7+2d6 damage.
The option that is 1d8+8+2d6 is clearly out because you're adding the +5 from the bow and the effective +3 from the arrow together, which is obviously wrong.
I can see how one may arrive at 1d8+5+2d6, by saying that you apply bane to the arrow resulting in a +3 arrow that deals an additional 2d6 damage. However, that is an unintuitive way to do the math to me.
In my mind you compare the enhancement bonus +5 vs +1 and pick the higher. Then apply special abilities (like bane).
Unfortunately, as far as I know there isn't actually a source that definitely confirms which is correct.
Is there any reason to put bane on your longbow if ammunition can grant that quality to the bow (interchangeably!)?
Well if it's something you want bane of often then you don't have to worry about buying tons of arrows of that type of bane.
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I can't see +7 as a possibility. "Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies".
You're firing a +3 Arrow from a +5 Bow.
No, you're firing a +1 Bane Arrow from a +5 Bow
Is there any reason to put bane on your longbow if ammunition can grant that quality to the bow (interchangeably!)?
Buying +2 arrows (+1 bane) is expensive. You don't recoup that cost.
It's almost like consumable items have a big effect, but represent a loss to your net wealth.
It's not actually clear if you can buy in lots of less than 50 arrows.
In either case, 10 bane arrows will last even a low level archer only a 3 rounds.
A high level archer will be shooting up to 7 shots a round.
This is why I prefer Automatic Bonus Progression.
You can attune to another weapon with the appropriate bane once per day, and adding the special ability is significantly cheaper.
To expound on what I said yesterday...
With ABP you can by several bane bows. Not +1 bane, just bane because under ABP you can't have enhancement bonuses on weapons, enhancement bonus is granted by attunement. So you pay 2000 gp for a bane bow, and can change your attunement once per day.
It will subtract 1 from you weapon enhancement attunement that you add, but now it's not really a problem to have 4 different bane bows (at medium levels) and switch between them on a daily basis to get the most bang for you buck. And this works for melee and ranged.
Considering how quickly you would burn through arrows, with ABP you're much better off simply buying a couple different bane weapons than buying expendable ammunition.
Damn I love Automatic Bonus Progression!
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The way I read it, Bane applies to the arrow as soon as the target is chosen, as it is ongoing enchantment and based on the target. The evaluating which is higher happens on the attack roll itself. Therefore, bane would already be applied before we evaluate which is higher.
I am willing to rethink this, but thats the way I read it, as soon as the bane is valid (at targeting) it is evaluated.
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No, you're firing a +1 Bane Arrow from a +5 BowI can't see +7 as a possibility. "Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies".
You're firing a +3 Arrow from a +5 Bow.
Well aware. The arrow, though, is effectively +3 for that attack, and deals an extra +2d6.
Net result: 1d8+2d6+5
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I think our proper course of action here is to FAQ.
Either 1d8+5+2d6 or 1d8+7+2d6 are reasonable interpretations depending on how you view the interaction between the special ability and the thing it's enhancing and how that enhancement is transferred.
As I stated before, nothing I know of indicates one position is more correct, so the only logical thing to do here is to FAQ it.
If one adds bane to ammunition (e.g. +1 bane(human) arrow) and fires it from a weapon (e.g. +5 bow) how should the resulting bonus to attack and damage be calculated? Would the result be a +7 to attack rolls and +7+2d6 damage against human targets? Or should the result be +5 to attack rolls and +5+2d6 damage to human targets?
No, you're firing a +1 Bane Arrow from a +5 BowI can't see +7 as a possibility. "Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies".
You're firing a +3 Arrow from a +5 Bow.
Well aware. The arrow, though, is effectively +3 for that attack, and deals an extra +2d6.
Net result: 1d8+2d6+5
So if the arrow is no longer a bane arrow but a +3 arrow that does and extra 2d6 then I should be able to use bane from the bow in conjunction with that to do +7 +1d8 +4d6 to account for bane effects and the base arrow properties.
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. To randomly determine a weapon's designated foe, roll on the following table.
So Bane has two effects: 1. Increase enhancement bonus against relevant target by +2; and, 2. Increase damage to relevant target by +2d6.
The general rules are that the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies, ranged weapons apply any abilities to ammunition, and ammunition abilities apply normally.
So to it would seem that Bane on Ammunition applies to the enhancement bonus attributed to the ammunition. That means if the ranged weapon has a higher enhancement bonus, that is the relevant bonus that the ammunition's Bane ability would augment. The bonus damage dice would then apply normally.
So a +1 Human Bane Arrow fired from a +5 Longbow would have, against an opponent that counts as human, an attack bonus of +5 (higher of the bow and the arrow) +2 (from Bane) for a total of +7. Damage would be 1d8 (base) +5 (higher of the bow and the arrow) + 2 (from Bane) + 2d6 (also from Bane).
Against a Human: +7 Attack. 1d8+7+2d6 Damage.
Against anything else: +5 Attack. 1d8+5 Damage.
FAQ'ed because I think it's a good question, though I believe this to be the most logical interpretation.
So if the arrow is no longer a bane arrow but a +3 arrow that does and extra 2d6 then I should be able to use bane from the bow in conjunction with that to do +7 +1d8 +4d6 to account for bane effects and the base arrow properties.No, you're firing a +1 Bane Arrow from a +5 BowI can't see +7 as a possibility. "Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies".
You're firing a +3 Arrow from a +5 Bow.
Well aware. The arrow, though, is effectively +3 for that attack, and deals an extra +2d6.
Net result: 1d8+2d6+5
So if we shoot Shaq's Stupendous Icy Hot Arrows from Bender's Uber Kill-All-Humans Longbow?
Shaq's Stupendous Icy Hot Arrows: +3 Flaming Frost Arrows
Bender's Uber Kill-All-Humans Longbow: +5 Human Bane Longbow
Against Humans: +7 Attack (higher of the two enhancement bonuses, augmented by Bane). 1d8 + 7 + 2d6 (weapon damage?) + 1d6 (flaming) + 1d6 (frost). So yeah, 1d8 + 7 + 4d6 (effectively).
So if the arrow is no longer a bane arrow but a +3 arrow that does and extra 2d6 then I should be able to use bane from the bow in conjunction with that to do +7 +1d8 +4d6 to account for bane effects and the base arrow properties.No, you're firing a +1 Bane Arrow from a +5 BowI can't see +7 as a possibility. "Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies".
You're firing a +3 Arrow from a +5 Bow.
Well aware. The arrow, though, is effectively +3 for that attack, and deals an extra +2d6.
Net result: 1d8+2d6+5
So if we shoot Shaq's Stupendous Icy Hot Arrows from Bender's Uber Kill-All-Humans Longbow?
Shaq's Stupendous Icy Hot Arrows: +3 Flaming Frost Arrows
Bender's Uber Kill-All-Humans Longbow: +5 Human Bane LongbowAgainst Humans: +7 Attack (higher of the two enhancement bonuses, augmented by Bane). 1d8 + 7 + 2d6 (weapon damage?) + 1d6 (flaming) + 1d6 (frost). So yeah, 1d8 + 7 + 4d6 (effectively).
No I'm saying a +5 bane bow using a +1 bane arrow.
Nefreet explicitly said the arrow is no longer a +1 bane arrow but is effectively a +3 arrow that deals and extra +2d6. Since it's no longer a bane arrow the bane property from the bow should be able to be applied to it.
I don't get it.
I am really struggling to understand how you get to +5+2d6.
I'm really struggling hard how the rules stating that the highest enhancement bonus applies can be (effectively) ignored.
I just can't see how, with the way the rules are structured, you can assume an order of operations that simply does not exist. The highest enhancement applies and bane applies, there is no order of operation, they both apply.
Even assuming an order of operations I'm really struggling hard to understand how a conditional modifier (bane) would ever apply before a static modifier (+5 enhancement).
It is a +5 bane attack, whichever way you look at it.
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I am really struggling to understand how you get to +5+2d6.
I'm equally struggling to understand how you get to +7.
And it's the people saying that it's +7 that are using an order of operations. I don't believe the rules support such a position.
No order is needed for +5. You simply take the better of the two enhancement bonuses.
Bane does 2 things: adds +2 to the existing enhancement (in this case +1 to +3), and then +2d6 damage.
I am really struggling to understand how you get to +5+2d6.I'm equally struggling to understand how you get to +7.
And it's the people saying that it's +7 that are using an order of operations. I don't believe the rules support such a position.
No order is needed for +5. You simply take the better of the two enhancement bonuses.
Bane does 2 things: adds +2 to the existing enhancement (in this case +1 to +3), and then +2d6 damage.
For you to not to be "using an order of operations" the Bane ability would have to give a +2 to the existing enhancement while sitting in it's quiver. If it only gets that bonus to existing enhancement when fired at the correct target then you HAVE to be "using an order of operations".
Do you think a bane arrow gets it bonus for aiming at the correct target or actually firing and making an attack at one. If it's the attack, why wouldn't the arrow have already taken on the enhancement of the bow before bane has had a chance to activate?
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A: "The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies."
B: "A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus."
The entire debate comes down to whether we apply A or B first.
A first: +5 > +1 = +5, add 2 for bane = +7
B first: +1 add 2 for bane = +3 < +5 = +5
Since both impact the chance of hitting the intended target, they would both need to be resolved while the projectile was in flight. Thus, it could really be done either way... there is nothing logically requiring either order of application.
No I'm saying a +5 bane bow using a +1 bane arrow.
Nefreet explicitly said the arrow is no longer a +1 bane arrow but is effectively a +3 arrow that deals and extra +2d6. Since it's no longer a bane arrow the bane property from the bow should be able to be applied to it.
Ah, gotcha. The practical answer is that different versions of Bane don't stack. So, in practice we don't have to deal with that. If you shoot a half-elf with an Elf Bane Bow firing a Human Bane Arrow, one applies but not both.
But to your point, no the arrow isn't just a +3 arrow. It's only effectively treated as one when Bane applies (which is what you're saying).
I am really struggling to understand how you get to +5+2d6.I'm equally struggling to understand how you get to +7.
And it's the people saying that it's +7 that are using an order of operations. I don't believe the rules support such a position.
No order is needed for +5. You simply take the better of the two enhancement bonuses.
Bane does 2 things: adds +2 to the existing enhancement (in this case +1 to +3), and then +2d6 damage.
Bane increases the existing enhancement bonus. But when an arrow is fired from a bow with a higher existing enhancement bonus, we're explicitly told to substitute the higher enhancement bonus. So the question is does the augmentation to the existing enhancement bonus occur before or after you apply that property from Bane.
As CB noted, there really isn't any actual direction in the rules about this. To me it makes the most sense to allow for Bane to apply after determining what the enhancement bonus for the attack is. That seems most logical to me. However, it's not explicit in the rules, so there's a fair question.
No I'm saying a +5 bane bow using a +1 bane arrow.
Nefreet explicitly said the arrow is no longer a +1 bane arrow but is effectively a +3 arrow that deals and extra +2d6. Since it's no longer a bane arrow the bane property from the bow should be able to be applied to it.Ah, gotcha. The practical answer is that different versions of Bane don't stack. So, in practice we don't have to deal with that. If you shoot a half-elf with an Elf Bane Bow firing a Human Bane Arrow, one applies but not both.
But to your point, no the arrow isn't just a +3 arrow. It's only effectively treated as one when Bane applies (which is what you're saying).
Right, but it's not having bane twice. it's having bane once on a +3 arrow that does and extra 2d6 damage. Both the bane on the arrow and the bow are the same type. but since the arrow effectively no longer has the bane property it's free to have bane put on it and work.
NN959/Nefreet et al
What do you say happens with a +1 bane bow with a +5 arrow?
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Okay, so I have a +5 longbow and stack of various human bane arrows.
I start with a +2 Humanbane Arrow. That's 366gp in that one shot, as far as I can tell (dividing costs for 50 arrows with a +3 enhancement bonus and adding the +6gp per arrow masterwork cost).
Then I try a +1 Humanbane Arrow. 166gp per arrow. Same effect (apparently)
Now you guys are telling me that I'm wasting 200 gp per shot by using the more impressive arrows?
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Okay, so I have a +5 longbow and stack of various human bane arrows.
I start with a +2 Humanbane Arrow. That's 366gp in that one shot, as far as I can tell (dividing costs for 50 arrows with a +3 enhancement bonus and adding the +6gp per arrow masterwork cost).
Then I try a +1 Humanbane Arrow. 166gp per arrow. Same effect (apparently)
Now you guys are telling me that I'm wasting 200 gp per shot by using the more impressive arrows?
Yes, because the enhancement bonus from the arrow definately does not stack with the bow. Only other properties like flaming, bane, or heart-seeking would apply, because only the highest enhancement applies.
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Bane is a special property.
Determine the enhancement bonus (greater between bow and arrow applies).
Apply all special properties to the arrow upon being fired.
Ergo: a +1 Undead Bane arrow from a +4 bow = a +4 Undead Bane arrow = +6 arrow vs Undead.
I really do not understand why people keep trying to resolve the special property before determining the enhancement bonus.
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NN959/Nefreet et al
What do you say happens with a +1 bane bow with a +5 arrow?
1) You declare target of the next attack - if the target is of the correct type, Bane goes off making the bow +3
2) You roll the d20 to attack3)When Calculating if you hit, you look to if the +1 (or +3 if bane went off) bow or the +5 arrow enhancement is higher, and take the +5.
4) You roll damage, if the bane went off, you add the extra 2d6 damage dice
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Yes, because the enhancement bonus from the arrow definately does not stack with the bow. Only other properties like flaming, bane, or heart-seeking would apply, because only the highest enhancement applies.Okay, so I have a +5 longbow and stack of various human bane arrows.
I start with a +2 Humanbane Arrow. That's 366gp in that one shot, as far as I can tell (dividing costs for 50 arrows with a +3 enhancement bonus and adding the +6gp per arrow masterwork cost).
Then I try a +1 Humanbane Arrow. 166gp per arrow. Same effect (apparently)
Now you guys are telling me that I'm wasting 200 gp per shot by using the more impressive arrows?
That's horrible. Just horrific.
That's horrible. Just horrific.Yes, because the enhancement bonus from the arrow definately does not stack with the bow. Only other properties like flaming, bane, or heart-seeking would apply, because only the highest enhancement applies.Okay, so I have a +5 longbow and stack of various human bane arrows.
I start with a +2 Humanbane Arrow. That's 366gp in that one shot, as far as I can tell (dividing costs for 50 arrows with a +3 enhancement bonus and adding the +6gp per arrow masterwork cost).
Then I try a +1 Humanbane Arrow. 166gp per arrow. Same effect (apparently)
Now you guys are telling me that I'm wasting 200 gp per shot by using the more impressive arrows?
Not really, shooting +2 arrows from a +5 bow is just foolish because the enhancement bonuses to attack and damage wouldn't stack. It's no different from casting Bull's Strength on yourself 3 times in a row. Obviously the Bull's Strength wouldn't stack with itself, so it would be a huge waste.
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Not really, shooting +2 arrows from a +5 bow is just foolish because the enhancement bonuses to attack and damage wouldn't stack. It's no different from casting Bull's Strength on yourself 3 times in a row. Obviously the Bull's Strength wouldn't stack with itself, so it would be a huge waste.That's horrible. Just horrific.Yes, because the enhancement bonus from the arrow definately does not stack with the bow. Only other properties like flaming, bane, or heart-seeking would apply, because only the highest enhancement applies.Okay, so I have a +5 longbow and stack of various human bane arrows.
I start with a +2 Humanbane Arrow. That's 366gp in that one shot, as far as I can tell (dividing costs for 50 arrows with a +3 enhancement bonus and adding the +6gp per arrow masterwork cost).
Then I try a +1 Humanbane Arrow. 166gp per arrow. Same effect (apparently)
Now you guys are telling me that I'm wasting 200 gp per shot by using the more impressive arrows?
I meant horrible and horrific because it's a huge waste.
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Determine the enhancement bonus (greater between bow and arrow applies).
Apply all special properties to the arrow upon being fired.
If you could cite someplace where that order of operations was specified then there wouldn't be any debate.
I really do not understand why people keep trying to resolve the special property before determining the enhancement bonus.
Because you are just assuming the inverse order to be 'the rule'. It is equally possible that special properties should be applied before determining enhancement bonus... or simultaneously. Bane is one of very few cases where the order makes a difference.
Yeah I can't think of any weapon property besides Bane that can be applied to ranged weapons./ammunition and increases the enhancement bonus such that it makes a difference in the calculation.
Now I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of all enchantments, but Bane may be unique in it's position of how it works.
Edit: Blood-hunting, though it's basically Bane for bloodlines.
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I really do not understand why people keep trying to resolve the special property before determining the enhancement bonus.Because you are just assuming the inverse order to be 'the rule'. It is equally possible that special properties should be applied before determining enhancement bonus... or simultaneously. Bane is one of very few cases where the order makes a difference.
I cannot imagine any logical structure where you would apply conditional modifiers before static modifiers. Without explicit instructions to the contrary that is an absolute default for me.
Not that it is relevant, because I don't think it applies here. I believe that you apply them simultaneously to get +5 bane, then the bane ability triggers after it has been applied.
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Hope that helps.
Nope, I still disagree :)
I don't think there is anything else I can add though.
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So I think I got a handle on this Bane thing, when hell started this Blog because I didn’t understand how magic weapon and/or magic ammo shared the highest modifier.
The cheapest Bane arrow is +1, (+3 vs. specific creature type (Bane rule +2 better than the actual bonus)).
Add in a +5 magical bow (with the +1 bane arrow) and the arrow becomes +5 (from the rule of highest enchantment, range weapon or ammo) against everything or +7 vs. specific creature type per the rule of Bane.
No matter what happens it’s still a bane arrow and gets +2 better than the actual bonus.