Morningstar question


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Scarab Sages

Seems to be the only weapon like this, the Morningstar deals both Bludgeoning and Piercing damage.

How does this interact with the rules? I can't seem to find the particular page, but I recall someone saying it affects DR in a certain way that makes it disadvantageous to deal two types at once. Can't seem to find this directly covered in my rulebook, though it's probably somewhere and I just can't find it.

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It actually counts as whatever is most advantageous.

So it overcomes DR 5/bludgeoning and DR 10/piercing, etc.

There are a few other weapons in Pathfinder that causes 2 different damage types.


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The damage is fully both types, so it's actually always beneficial to deal multiple types. Like if someone was totally immune to piercing and you attacked with your morning star your full damage would go through.

The only downside would be if they had a special ability that said, when attacked with a piercing do X, as the attack would also always trigger that.


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Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Seems to be the only weapon like this, the Morningstar deals both Bludgeoning and Piercing damage.

How does this interact with the rules? I can't seem to find the particular page, but I recall someone saying it affects DR in a certain way that makes it disadvantageous to deal two types at once. Can't seem to find this directly covered in my rulebook, though it's probably somewhere and I just can't find it.

Weapon qualities, p. 144.

Scarab Sages

Manly-man teapot wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Seems to be the only weapon like this, the Morningstar deals both Bludgeoning and Piercing damage.

How does this interact with the rules? I can't seem to find the particular page, but I recall someone saying it affects DR in a certain way that makes it disadvantageous to deal two types at once. Can't seem to find this directly covered in my rulebook, though it's probably somewhere and I just can't find it.

Weapon qualities, p. 144.

Thank you. I swear I read that before and missed it, but yes, that's it exactly.

Scarab Sages

SmiloDan wrote:
There are a few other weapons in Pathfinder that causes 2 different damage types.

Just curious, which are those? I've looked, just for reference, and I'm only seeing the one weapon that does two types at the same time.


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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
There are a few other weapons in Pathfinder that causes 2 different damage types.
Just curious, which are those? I've looked, just for reference, and I'm only seeing the one weapon that does two types at the same time.

The ones I can find are the Hurlbat, Flindbar, Chain Spear, Shoanti Bolas, and Bite and Claw natural attacks.

Scarab Sages

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FamiliarMask wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
There are a few other weapons in Pathfinder that causes 2 different damage types.
Just curious, which are those? I've looked, just for reference, and I'm only seeing the one weapon that does two types at the same time.
The ones I can find are the Hurlbat, Flindbar, Chain Spear, Shoanti Bolas, and Bite and Claw natural attacks.

Nice list, thanks.

EDIT: Looks like that Chain Spear isn't able to do two types of damage, here.

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I thought some polearms did, too, but that might have been old memories from 3.X.


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SmiloDan wrote:
I thought some polearms did, too, but that might have been old memories from 3.X.

Halberds do Slashing and Piercing, I'm pretty sure, and the Lucern Hammer does Blunt and Piercing.

There are arrows that do Blunt Damage.

So are we all saying that if I get a Silver Morning Star, it bypasses DR as if it were Silver, Piercing, Blunt, and since we can call it Blunt, there is no -1 Damage Penalty? Cool!


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A halberd deals slashing OR piercing. A morning deals piercing AND bludgeoning. Thr difference is probably not, but there could be rare situations where it matters.


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
I thought some polearms did, too, but that might have been old memories from 3.X.
Halberds do Slashing and Piercing, I'm pretty sure, and the Lucern Hammer does Blunt and Piercing.

No, Halberds deal Slashing or Piercing and Lucerne Hammers deal Piercing or Bludgeoning.

Edit: Ninja'd.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
A halberd deals slashing OR piercing. A morning deals piercing AND bludgeoning. Thr difference is probably not, but there could be rare situations where it matters.

Thank you and Gisher for pointing that out. Still, Halberd and Lucerne Hammer seem worth mentioning.

So, what about that Silver Morning Star?

And, I guess the answer for those 2 Silver Pole Arms is implicit, but can you have a Lucerne Hammer that is both Cold Iron and Silver: a silver hammer edge and a cold iron spike?


Another one to mention: Shields. A Spiked Shield does Piercing Damage, but if it's also a Throwing Shield, it does Blunt Damage when thrown.


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Just in case anyone is wondering on the difference -

With a morningstar, you don't have to choose what damage you're doing. You just swing it, it bashes, and it bypasses DR/bludgeoning as well as bypasses DR/piercing.

With a halberd, you have to decide when you attack - are you swinging it to hit with the axe handle or are you stabbing them with the pointy part?


The silver morning star is still -1, since it is a piercing weapon.

Scarab Sages

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
A halberd deals slashing OR piercing. A morning deals piercing AND bludgeoning. Thr difference is probably not, but there could be rare situations where it matters.

When a weapon does either type, you actually have to declare which type you are dealing. So if something has DR/Slashing, it only is ignored if you choose to deal slashing damage (and you might not realize the DR right away).

The other time it really matters is when swimming. Piercing weapons do normal damage, while Bludgeoning and Slashing deal half damage. Pretty sure the Morningstar's B&P damage makes it count as half damage while underwater.

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, what about that Silver Morning Star?
Core Rulebook, Equipment chapter wrote:
On a successful attack with a silvered slashing or piercing weapon, the wielder takes a –1 penalty on the damage roll (with a minimum of 1 point of damage).

This is very different from the non-existent "non-bludgeoning weapons deal –1 damage" rule that most people put into their own heads by accident.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
A halberd deals slashing OR piercing. A morning deals piercing AND bludgeoning. Thr difference is probably not, but there could be rare situations where it matters.

When a weapon does either type, you actually have to declare which type you are dealing. So if something has DR/Slashing, it only is ignored if you choose to deal slashing damage (and you might not realize the DR right away).

The other time it really matters is when swimming. Piercing weapons do normal damage, while Bludgeoning and Slashing deal half damage. Pretty sure the Morningstar's B&P damage makes it count as half damage while underwater.

Nope, it's a piercing weapon so it does full damage.


Jiggy wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, what about that Silver Morning Star?
Core Rulebook, Equipment chapter wrote:
On a successful attack with a silvered slashing or piercing weapon, the wielder takes a –1 penalty on the damage roll (with a minimum of 1 point of damage).
This is very different from the non-existent "non-bludgeoning weapons deal –1 damage" rule that most people put into their own heads by accident.

So, I guess it is not "always beneficial" to do both--piercing and bludgeoning--types! And better to have a Silver Earthbreaker, a Cold Iron Morning Star, and an Adamantine Lucerne Hammer.

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Chess Pwn wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
A halberd deals slashing OR piercing. A morning deals piercing AND bludgeoning. Thr difference is probably not, but there could be rare situations where it matters.

When a weapon does either type, you actually have to declare which type you are dealing. So if something has DR/Slashing, it only is ignored if you choose to deal slashing damage (and you might not realize the DR right away).

The other time it really matters is when swimming. Piercing weapons do normal damage, while Bludgeoning and Slashing deal half damage. Pretty sure the Morningstar's B&P damage makes it count as half damage while underwater.

Nope, it's a piercing weapon so it does full damage.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. The only rule on underwater damage types I'm seeing in the CRB is that chart in the Environments chapter, and it says both that piercing weapons deal normal damage and that bludgeoning weapons deal half damage (and take -2 to hit). So in the case of a dual-type weapon like a Morningstar, we've actually got two applicable rules that contradict each other. :/


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So since it's fully both types it does full piercing doesn't get hindered.
I base this off of a hit against dr/5 Piercing does full damage. So even though a bludgeoning weapon would be reduced you still do full damage, so in water, even though bludgeoning would be reduced you still do full damage.

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Chess Pwn wrote:

So since it's fully both types it does full piercing doesn't get hindered.

I base this off of a hit against dr/5 Piercing does full damage. So even though a bludgeoning weapon would be reduced you still do full damage, so in water, even though bludgeoning would be reduced you still do full damage.

The DR rules have nothing to do with the underwater combat rules. There's not some central rule that they're both based on, and neither references the other.

EDIT: And on top of that, you can't even infer the intent of underwater combat from the DR rules, because they're not even structured similarly. The underwater combat rules say "If X do this, if Y do that"; the DR rules are a binary yes/no: if the attack possesses the listed quality, bypass the DR.


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It is all conditional. Under water: is it bludgeoning, yes = half damage.

DR5/bludgeoning: is it bludgeoning, yes = no damage reduction.

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Nevan Oaks wrote:
It is all conditional. Under water: is it bludgeoning, yes = half damage.

Simultaneously, the underwater rule is ALSO "Is it piercing? Yes = Normal damage".

The morningstar brings two mutually-exclusive rules into the situation simultaneously.


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Jiggy wrote:
Nevan Oaks wrote:
It is all conditional. Under water: is it bludgeoning, yes = half damage.

Simultaneously, the underwater rule is ALSO "Is it piercing? Yes = Normal damage".

The morningstar brings two mutually-exclusive rules into the situation simultaneously.

I agree that it is a clear case of rule conflict. I wonder how the design team would resolve it, but I suspect it wouldn't be considered far-reaching enough to get a FAQ.

If I had to make a tie-breaking decision as a GM, I think I would say that it takes the penalty because of its shape and the fact that it is usually swung rather than thrust forward. It's more like a mace than a spear in those senses. But I couldn't find any written rules that could be used to resolve this.

Edit: I just posted this conundrum on Mark Seifter's thread. I'm curious to hear his thought process on this.


One side effect of this is that you rarely see those double-type weapons called out like the urgrosh when it comes to bracing. Strictly speaking, a bec de corbin or lucerne hammer can do bludgeoning damage when braced, while a halberd can do slashing. And then there's the monk's spade. Each end does 1d6, but it's B or P or S. For a mere martial weapon, it seems like it needs an instruction manual.


Right under water is it piercing: yes plus or minus 0 (ie.. Normal damage), is it bludgeoning: yes 1/2 damage.

Untyped bonuses stack.
So you get half damage.

If you have an orc bane weapon and attack a half orc you don't just get normal damage (human) because it is human. You get bonus damage because it is orc. May not be the same rule but is the same principal


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Gladius...both piercing and slashing and finessable


The Boarding Axe from Pirates of the Inner Sea can do Slashing OR Piercing. It's a nice one-handed light weapon.


So, to clarify for my own edification, DO bludgeoning weapons take a -1 to damage if they are Alchemically Silvered?


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The Beardinator wrote:
So, to clarify for my own edification, DO bludgeoning weapons take a -1 to damage if they are Alchemically Silvered?

Blunt weapons are good to go...

Quote:

Silver, Alchemical

On a successful attack with a silvered slashing or piercing weapon, the wielder takes a –1 penalty on the damage roll (with a minimum of 1 point of damage). The alchemical silvering process can't be applied to nonmetal items, and it doesn't work on rare metals such as adamantine, cold iron, and mithral.

If you don't like the -1 you can make a mithral weapon instead they don't have that caveat.

Liberty's Edge

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Most Natural Attacks also deal multiple types of damage. Claw is Bludgeoning and Slashing; Bite is Bludgeoning, piercing and slashing....

Liberty's Edge

Unklbuck wrote:
Gladius...both piercing and slashing and finessable

Its actually Piercing OR Slashing. Meaning you make a choice when attacking. Whereas when something like a Morningstar is Bludgeoning AND Piercing, its always both and overcomes both types of DR with any typical strike.

Also about the water thing, since Natural Attacks that are Bites deal full damage underwater. I would think that just having piercing as part of the attack (either making the choice with an "or" weapon, or having it with an "and" weapon) but that's logical inference rather than any particular RAW I can find.


The Beardinator wrote:
So, to clarify for my own edification, DO bludgeoning weapons take a -1 to damage if they are Alchemically Silvered?

If it ONLY does bludgeoning, then it's fine.

If it does bludgeoning AND piercing like the morningstar does, then the -1 damage penalty applies since you're still doing a piercing attack.


Cool beans! (no that is not a plug for my other thread Magic Beans) ;)

Liberty's Edge

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Silvered morningstar does full bludgeoning damage OR piercing damage reduced by 1... whichever is better (e.g. depending on target DR).

Morningstar under water does half damage... because water impedes the ability to swing it just like any other bludgeoning weapon.

Reality based logic.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Silvered morningstar does full bludgeoning damage OR piercing damage reduced by 1... whichever is better (e.g. depending on target DR).

It can't do 'or', it's an 'and' weapon.

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Silvered morningstar does full bludgeoning damage OR piercing damage reduced by 1... whichever is better (e.g. depending on target DR).
It can't do 'or', it's an 'and' weapon.

Graystone is right, its always both. Think physically (and the RAW backs this up), a Gladius you could slash or stab, but a Morningstar has no way to not use the Piercing aspect when swinging. It always deals both, so anything with DR Bludgeoning or DR Piercing is always overcome by a Morningstar. But let's say you hit something that sprays poisonous pus if you hit it with Piercing or Slashing... Well a Morningstar you don't get a choice.

Underwater the Piercing aspect of a Morningstar is impeded in its swing by the Bludgeoning part. You don't get to choose not to use it, personally as a GM I'd tell the player to split the difference and do 3/4 damage. But there's no RAW to back that decision up.

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graystone wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Silvered morningstar does full bludgeoning damage OR piercing damage reduced by 1... whichever is better (e.g. depending on target DR).
It can't do 'or', it's an 'and' weapon.

A normal morningstar that rolls 4 points of damage does not do 4 points of bludgeoning damage AND 4 points of piercing damage (8 points total). It does 4 points of 'bludgeoning and piercing damage'... which is usually evaluated as the greater of 4 points of bludgeoning damage OR 4 points of piercing damage after accounting for DR. If you want to be super precise then you need to break that post DR damage in to categories... some may be B, some P, and some B&P.

Examples:
4 points normal morningstar damage yields;
DR 10/B = 4 bludgeoning
DR 2/P = 2 piercing + 2 bludgeoning & piercing
DR 2/P AND DR 1/B = 1 piercing + 2 bludgeoning & piercing

A silvered morningstar works exactly the same way... just with one less piercing damage because that's how silver effects piercing (presumably because the relatively soft metal doesn't hold a point/edge as well).

Examples:
4 points silvered morningstar damage yields;
DR 10/B = 4 bludgeoning
DR 2/P = 1 piercing + 2 bludgeoning & piercing
DR 2/P AND DR 1/B = 2 bludgeoning & piercing


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CBDunkerson wrote:
A normal morningstar that rolls 4 points of damage does not do 4 points of bludgeoning damage AND 4 points of piercing damage (8 points total). It does 4 points of 'bludgeoning and piercing damage'.

Yes... Now add "On a successful attack with a silvered slashing or piercing weapon, the wielder takes a –1 penalty on the damage roll (with a minimum of 1 point of damage)."

So a weapon that deals "4 points of 'bludgeoning and piercing damage'" get a reduction of -1 damage period! The reduction is based on if the WEAPON a piercing weapon, and the Morningstar is ALWAYS one. So the whole DR part of your last post is moot.

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No. If you roll 4 damage with a silvered morningstar against a creature with DR 10/B then you do 4 points of (bludgeoning) damage to that creature. Not 3. BECAUSE it is ALWAYS B&P. If the creature had DR 10/P THEN you would do 3 (piercing) damage.


CBDunkerson wrote:
No. If you roll 4 damage with a silvered morningstar against a creature with DR 10/B then you do 4 points of (bludgeoning) damage to that creature. Not 3. BECAUSE it is ALWAYS B&P. If the creature had DR 10/P THEN you would do 3 (piercing) damage.

Is it a piercing weapon? Yes

What do the rules say to do with piercing weapons treated with silver?: take a "–1 penalty on the damage roll". When you ROLL and not later when you compare the total to the DR. By the time you get to the DR, you've already taken the -1.

If it was an OR, you could treat is as a piercing weapon or a bludgeoning one, but as you pointed out it's BOTH for the Morningstar.

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CBDunkerson wrote:
...then you do 4 points of (bludgeoning) damage ... BECAUSE it is ALWAYS B&P.

*blinks*


Mark Seifter's personal and unofficial take on the underwater issue.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Gisher wrote:

Mark, this came up in another thread.

A Morningstar is a Piercing and Bludgeoning weapon so it can't be used just as a Bludgeoning weapon or just as a Piercing weapon.

UE wrote:
Some weapons deal damage of multiple types. If a weapon causes two types of damage, the type it deals is not half one type and half another; rather, all damage caused is considered to be of both types. Therefore, a creature would have to be immune to both types of damage to ignore any of the damage caused by such a weapon.

The rules for underwater combat tell us that Piercing weapons (which this is) use their normal 'to hit' scores and deal damage normally. The rules also tell us that Bludgeoning weapons (which this is) suffer a -2 penalty 'to hit' and only deal half damage. (I'm assuming the cases where the character isn't using Freedom of Movement but is standing with firm footing or swimming.)

For a Kunai, which is Piercing or Bludgeoning, I think this could be resolved by having the player declare which sort of damage she wanted to deal. But the Morningstar doesn't offer that choice. I'm pretty sure this is too rare a situation to justify a FAQ, so I was wondering how you might go about resolving the contradiction.

Huh, yeah, it's not IF(X) THEN Y, ELSEIF(A) THEN B. It uses two IFs instead. I don't think it can properly resolve itself, so the question is whether to be permissive or restrictive there. Maybe permissive since underwater penalties are really annoying? I agree with the "or" weapons.

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graystone wrote:
Is it a piercing weapon? Yes

Is it a bludgeoning weapon? Yes

Quote:
What do the rules say to do with piercing weapons treated with silver?: take a "–1 penalty on the damage roll".

What do the rules say to do with bludgeoning weapons treated with silver?: roll damage normally.

Quote:
If it was an OR, you could treat is as a piercing weapon or a bludgeoning one, but as you pointed out it's BOTH for the Morningstar.

Right. It is both. So why are you treating it as ONLY piercing?

Silvered piercing damage is -1. Silvered bludgeoning damage is not. Ergo, a silvered morningstar does: 1 bludgeoning damage + [rolled damage - 1] bludgeoning & piercing damage.

It continues to be both bludgeoning and piercing. Not JUST piercing.


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The problem is that you're attempting to treat [bludgeoning damage] and [piercing damage] as though they're separate quantities, both of which are dealt by a morningstar. But that's not the case - if it were, morningstars would deal twice as much damage as any other weapon, equal parts bludgeoning and piercing. Rather, the morningstar simply deals one quantity of [damage], with the properties [bludgeoning] and [piercing] attached to it.

Look at it in terms of analogy. If we had a rule that said "all [liquid] substances become one gram lighter" and you had a [purple] [liquid] substance, you wouldn't just take away a gram from the property of [liquid]; you take it away from the entire substance and all the properties attached. Likewise, obeying the rule that "all [piercing] damage is reduced by one point" means that [piercing] [bludgioning] damage is reduced by one point in its entirely, not that one point loses its [piercing] quality.

There is no special rule that says "bludgeoning weapons can never take any penalty from being made of alchemical silver." Piercing damage is reduced by one point, and as we can clearly see, "piercing" and "bludgeoning" are not mutually exclusive. If it is piercing, it deals one less point of damage, regardless of what other qualities its damage has. The weapon is doing normal damage: normal damage for an alchemical silver piercing weapon, which is slightly lower than that of many other attacks.


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Actually a cold iron morningstar is a simple weapon and for 16 gold a great investment as a back up weapon for just about anyone. As discussed deals two damage types. I usually buy one at level one.

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Avoron wrote:
The problem is that you're attempting to treat [bludgeoning damage] and [piercing damage] as though they're separate quantities, both of which are dealt by a morningstar. But that's not the case - if it were, morningstars would deal twice as much damage as any other weapon, equal parts bludgeoning and piercing.

No, I'm not.

I'm treating the morningstar as dealing damage which is both bludgeoning and piercing... except when DR or other factors block some portion of that damage. A monster which has DR that blocks all piercing damage does not take piercing damage from a morningstar... only bludgeoning. By the logic YOU present, since the piercing damage was reduced to zero by DR the bludgeoning damage would have to be as well ("damage is reduced ... in its entirety"). Yet that clearly is NOT how it works.

Think of the silvered property as one point of damage reduction on piercing damage, only inherent to the weapon itself.

Or compare it to effects which make spell damage both 'holy' (or unholy) and fire... fire immunity does not reduce the damage to zero because it does not protect against the other component. Similarly, the reduction to piercing does not reduce the bludgeoning component.

Even setting aside the rules inconsistencies (i.e. inconsistent with how DR is handled, inconsistent with the damage being BOTH bludgeoning & piercing) with the approach you suggest... it also just doesn't make any 'real world' sense. Silvered piercing weapons do less damage because silver isn't a strong metal that can hold sharp points for penetrating objects. Yet it is just fine for crushing things via bludgeoning damage. Thus, the crushing action of a silvered morningstar would be every bit as effective as a non-silvered morningstar... NOT reduced by one point as you would have it.


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CBDunkerson wrote:
Is it a bludgeoning weapon? Yes

Moot point. There are no rules on bludgeoning silver weapon. This comment literally brings nothing to the debate.

CBDunkerson wrote:
What do the rules say to do with bludgeoning weapons treated with silver?: roll damage normally.

They say nothing as they SAY nothing about them. How does this alter the rules for piercing silver weapons? It doesn't, so again, this is a moot point.

CBDunkerson wrote:

Right. It is both. So why are you treating it as ONLY piercing?

Silvered piercing damage is -1. Silvered bludgeoning damage is not. Ergo, a silvered morningstar does: 1 bludgeoning damage + [rolled damage - 1] bludgeoning & piercing damage.

It continues to be both bludgeoning and piercing. Not JUST piercing.

Because you ONLY roll ONE damage roll. So I roll damage, apply all rules for damage [piercing weapons deal -1] for total. Done. Want me to add the 'rule' for bludgeoning? Sure, so I change/add nothing already done.

Second mistake is you talk about piercing damage, which is meaningless. The silver rules cares if you put it on a piercing weapon, not the damage you deal.

So a perfect sweep of 4 moot points... The debate ended with "
attack with a silvered slashing or piercing weapon, the wielder takes a –1 penalty on the damage roll" and the Morningstar being a piercing weapon...

As to DR, you MUST roll damage before you apply DR, so by the time you get to DR the damage is already rolled. You don't get to have different rolls for different DR as you're trying to do....

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