Astomoi race is unplayable...


Rules Questions

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Liberty's Edge

My understanding of the 'as per Darkvision' was that their mental sense gave them the same kind of information as Darkvision (e.g. can't discern colors)... not that it was dependent on light level (e.g. blocked by magical darkness).

That said, a separate explanation of what they can/cannot sense would definitely have been a good idea for a race with such a unique type of perception.


Saying "Darkvision" pretty much implies darkvision's limitations, though, and Darkvision does have ONE advantage over blindsight - you can't read printing/writing with blindsight.

Really though, given what the Astomoi physically are, Blindsight makes a lot more sense, though it really WOULD make them unplayable, since plot threads often revolve around writing, even ASIDE from the need for braille scrolls.


Yeah, i'd probably rule it as blindsight with the ability to discern details up to and including writing.

Also Anguish, I really like that idea about them basically creating their own world from an rp perspective. that would be tons o' fun to play.

As an added wrinkle, how would you have your character react to a Mindscape battle? Seems like an awesome situation


Ridiculon wrote:

Yeah, i'd probably rule it as blindsight with the ability to discern details up to and including writing.

Also Anguish, I really like that idea about them basically creating their own world from an rp perspective. that would be tons o' fun to play.

As an added wrinkle, how would you have your character react to a Mindscape battle? Seems like an awesome situation

On the RAW side of things, I don't know that it would work much differently from reality; the Astomi still wouldn't "see" more than its normal vision range, even if it was creating the environment. That'd be a disadvantage. On the other hand, it'd be reasonable to have them exceptionally good at rapidly changing microenvironments.

I've already laid the groundwork with the GM of one of my groups for an Astomi with blindsight. Of course, I have at least two other character concepts in line first, and actively hope my current character doesn't die. I'll likely have to save the idea for an NPC some day.


QuidEst wrote:
I call shenanigans on the "evolutionary" argument. There are animals with a few feet of vision at best. Solar navigation works fine with shadows, and there are lots of signs of bad weather other than looking at the sky.

Actually, no, it doesn't. They perceive their environment as if through darkvision. That means no shadows. Although I am curious as to what happens if you get an ability to extend their effective darkvision? Like being a void kineticist...


Renata Maclean wrote:
Slithery D wrote:

How would an entire society of blind people survive in a world where people with sight might want to take your stuff? They wouldn't.

So, yes, this is playable as a character, but it's nonsensical as a racial concept.

They're a very ascetic race, presumably in part for that reason. If they have no stuff, no-one is going to take it.

Heck, they don't even need food. They won't even have a sandwich on them.

This seems like a race perfectly content to hide away in a cave system or dense forest where line of sight is less of an issue. They can technically survive in any environment that isn't outright hostile.

Ridiculon wrote:
Renata Maclean wrote:

Who's out there committing astomoi genocide, anyway?

Some ranger who accidentally took humanoid (astomoi) as their favoured enemy and is trying to make it count?
not so much purposeful genocide as losing in the competition for resources

What resources? They don't eat, which REALLY opens up the possibilities for viable homes. They can just pick any random desolate spot and survive. They are not going to get into fights for good hunting and farm land. They don't need to start up mines to get enough money to survive the winter.

Ridiculon wrote:
But yeah, anyone with a ranged weapon could wipe out the whole race unless they have super crazy reflexes or some other defensive mechanism to make up for supernatural shortsightedness

That mechanism could easily be called 'dogs'. Having guard dogs with normal vision (also, great hearing that would also extend to a fair range). that way, when they are attacked, the dogs will notice and bark in the direction of danger. It isn't like humans don't use dogs for the purpose of making up for their poor natural senses already. Really, human senses are pretty garbage in the terms of the animal kingdom as a whole for everything other than colored sight. Why not add sight on top of hearing and scent?


Skaeren wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
I call shenanigans on the "evolutionary" argument. There are animals with a few feet of vision at best. Solar navigation works fine with shadows, and there are lots of signs of bad weather other than looking at the sky.
Actually, no, it doesn't. They perceive their environment as if through darkvision. That means no shadows. Although I am curious as to what happens if you get an ability to extend their effective darkvision? Like being a void kineticist...

Ah, true. Fortunately, a single rank in survival lets you always know which way is north.


Read the curses of the Oracle they are brutal. Does that make the class unplayable, no not at all. Have played both the Blindness and Tongues curse and have managed to do well with both. Granted I'm not a ranged specialist with the Blindness curse but do quite well otherwise.


lemeres wrote:
Ridiculon wrote:
Renata Maclean wrote:

Who's out there committing astomoi genocide, anyway?

Some ranger who accidentally took humanoid (astomoi) as their favoured enemy and is trying to make it count?
not so much purposeful genocide as losing in the competition for resources

What resources? They don't eat, which REALLY opens up the possibilities for viable homes. They can just pick any random desolate spot and survive. They are not going to get into fights for good hunting and farm land. They don't need to start up mines to get enough money to survive the winter.

Ridiculon wrote:
But yeah, anyone with a ranged weapon could wipe out the whole race unless they have super crazy reflexes or some other defensive mechanism to make up for supernatural shortsightedness
That mechanism could easily be called 'dogs'. Having guard dogs with normal vision (also, great hearing that would also extend to a fair range). that way, when they are attacked, the dogs will notice and bark in the direction of danger. It isn't like humans don't use dogs for the purpose of making up for their poor natural senses already. Really, human senses are pretty garbage in the terms of the animal kingdom as a whole for everything other than colored sight. Why not add sight on top of hearing and scent?

True, they could use dogs. But I was thinking from a more evolutionary scale. For instance, humans and dogs began working together originally because they had complementary goals and abilities, aka humans have a better sense of sight and are higher off the ground which works well as a defense against predators, whereas wolves have a better sense of smell and can track things better for hunting.

Humans and wolves worked together and were more successful as a unit, how would the astomoi and dogs complement each other (in a prehistory frame)? why would the astomoi have originally tried to get wolves' help if they don't eat? How would the wolves have benefited from the original symbiotic relationship?

Of course dogs would be a great answer to the problem of a guy with a bow, i'm just trying to figure out how the astomoi made it far enough up the tech/time tree to meet guys with bows


Ridiculon wrote:

True, they could use dogs. But I was thinking from a more evolutionary scale. For instance, humans and dogs began working together originally because they had complementary goals and abilities, aka humans have a better sense of sight and are higher off the ground which works well as a defense against predators, whereas wolves have a better sense of smell and can track things better for hunting.

Humans and wolves worked together and were more successful as a unit, how would the astomoi and dogs complement each other (in a prehistory frame)? why would the astomoi have originally tried to get wolves' help if they don't eat? How would the wolves have benefited from...

Well, if we are looking at evolution (as much as that applies to fantasy), then the astomoi wouldn't have needed to have long range senses in the first place. They don't have to actively search for food, and they are practically at the level of filter feeders. So having enough senses to determine immediate threats would be enough.

And really... again- ignoring fantasy- there would be little trouble with a 60' range. Cause humans are the species that brought up ranged combat at such a large scale. How many creatures other than humans do you know of with attacks that exceed a 60' range? There is only a relatively minor disadvantage when encountering packs of predators that they might ahve spotted otherwise... but even then, most creatures face problems from wolves and lions anyway since such creatures use stealth (ie- trees/tall savanna grasses).

So it would be relatively easy to figure out how they chose to get wolves- they encountered humans with wolves that became a threat with their bows. So, seeing the wolves, they thought 'well, that is a solution'.


Buy a Serpentine Owl.

PRD wrote:
Serpentine Owl: This figurine becomes either a normal-sized horned owl or a giant owl (use the stats for the giant eagle) according to the command word used. The transformation can take place once per day, with a maximum duration of 8 continuous hours. However, after three transformations into giant owl form, the statuette loses all its magical properties. The owl communicates with its owner by telepathic means, informing her of all it sees and hears.

Three of them will cover you with reports of events, creatures, items beyond your 'vision' for 24 hour a day.

Sovereign Court

Maybe most of them learn to use this spell in order to break from the claustrophobic lifestyle...


Synthesist summoners? Astomoi only have mental bonuses and have natural scent (funny because that means they can feel the particles of what ever left the smell behind). when they are in the living armor they would have all it's senses and save on buying a few evolutions due to their natural perception. one thing to remember is they only sense objects and people, meaning without the eidolon or linked familiar they can't read.... sorry Astomoi wizards, are they actually a gas though? because if so wind wall and gust would really mess them up.


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Why do people keep saying Astomoi don't need to eat? Why is no one correcting them? Has everyone just skimmed their write-up?

Astomoi need to eat.

It's re-fluffed as "smelling the food", but that makes no difference since the food becomes useless afterwards just the same. They don't actually ingest it (and are thus immune to ingested poisons, yes), but mechanicaly, their only real difference is said immunity to ingested poisons (which rarely matter to PCs, anyway) and which is balanced by them being weaker against inhaled poisons (which matter far more).

They also have the scent ability, so even if they can't see you, they can still track and find you. And their hearing isn't limited, even if they can't talk.

/Edith: And I just noticed I replied to a necro'ed topic.
Also, @Saraphali - Astomoi can read just fine. They're just colorblind and restricted to 60 foot range.


IMHO as a GM if a player wanted to play a blind Astomoi, they could not use there mental vision to see out to 60'.

As as someone suggested someone would create an item that is like binoculars so they could see farther. (or at least I would hope they would do so)
If not they would confine themselves to locations where they could not be attacked by creatures moving faster than 60' a round. ie IMHO a roc would love to find a group of Astomoi out on a plane. The roc dives moving much aster than the range out to which the Astomoi can see so they notice the roc when it swoops up its easy meal from the ground. Then the roc carries the helpless Astomoi up into the air and drops it from a great height and goes back for the rest of its meal.

MDC


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You know, just my two cents here, I probably would have reserved this race for an Adventure Path bestiary before debuting them in a regular one, so as to have more room to lay out their ecology and society and how they try and compensate for their limited senses.

Because there are some perfectly reasonable ideas presented here; living in dense forests or underground tunnels, using various bonded creatures, etc. But we don't have any information to do more than speculate.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Slithery D wrote:

How would an entire society of blind people survive in a world where people with sight might want to take your stuff? They wouldn't.

So, yes, this is playable as a character, but it's nonsensical as a racial concept.

um, they communicate telepathically and can sense almost anything within 60 feet, they could easily coordinate against intruders. they're also made of out darkness, or at least appear to be, they definitely can sneak. I'm just saying they can be completely silent and coordinated monsters. It makes sense given their ability scores. They simply cooridnate and surround enemies, using their senses and powers against races that don't have them.

I think they'd operate well in any place that has a decent ability to stealth.


Keneticists with wind sight or touch sight chain could explane how dangerous this race can be. And what if they bonded with Pseudo Dragons, Bats or large Spiders. Then they would have distinct advantages. Drowning are liintend in daylight senarios, but they are boogeymen. People would be scared to death of astomoi. With tech or magic...omg...they would be unstoppable. I would give them feats to allow them to pick up Thoughsight the monster power and maybe limited Detect Thoughts or Probe Thoughts as Racial feats. Like the Mastery Feats for items/save bonus minimums. They could be allowed to qualify for pysic combat feats. ..maybe even allowing them to have a better flexibility with it. Yeah I'm am impressed with this race.


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Well apparently they make great necromancers!

Liberty's Edge

Ridiculon wrote:

true, im just thinking of it from a (sort of) evolutionary standpoint. in a world where creatures with normal vision are evolving how did these guys survive? do they have other senses that make up for their limited "vision"? how did they travel long distances without astral navigation, what did they do if their few landmarks were destroyed? how do they prepare for weather if they literally cannot see it coming? Things like huge thunderstorms or tornadoes coming in on a sudden front could have wiped them out just as easily as a well coordinated bow volley.

It seems like a lot of this would be avoided if they lived only in tunnels. Keep in mind that I haven't seen the actual entry on these guys.

Moles have existed for a few millions years. Ants see a few centimeters away and use smell and pheromones (and the astomoi has scent). Cats are near shigthed. You can find thousand of creatures that live perfectly with limited sight range. Simply they live differently from humans.

Liberty's Edge

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

... a roc would love to find a group of Astomoi out on a plane. The roc dives moving much aster than the range out to which the Astomoi can see so they notice the roc when it swoops up its easy meal from the ground. Then the roc carries the helpless Astomoi up into the air and drops it from a great height and goes back for the rest of its meal.

MDC

Because 1st level human commoners are perfectly able to avoid a roc, right?

:-)

FormerFiend wrote:

You know, just my two cents here, I probably would have reserved this race for an Adventure Path bestiary before debuting them in a regular one, so as to have more room to lay out their ecology and society and how they try and compensate for their limited senses.

Because there are some perfectly reasonable ideas presented here; living in dense forests or underground tunnels, using various bonded creatures, etc. But we don't have any information to do more than speculate.

That is one of the weakness of the current bestiary and why it is less fun reading them. The old monster manuals had some stuff about a specie ecology and way of living. Less material in a book, not all of it in one page, but a way more interesting read.


I feel, though, that the Astomoi, having moved more than 60' in one direction and discovered that there were some things there that were new to that place and not present where they were started, are able to mentally conceive of things they cannot see being there. Just like how you or I are able to imagine that there might be something on the other side of a wall or a curtain. You may not be able to see it, but if you move to a different position you might.

Or, you could just yell to your buddy who is standing elsewhere "hey, what's on the other side of that curtain" and get a response, and Astomoi are *extremely* good at this sort of thing. I imagine as a civilization they have learned to network extremely effectively.

Shadow Lodge

I've been playing a similar character for five levels. 60ft of vision isn't crippling.


Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:

Why do people keep saying Astomoi don't need to eat? Why is no one correcting them? Has everyone just skimmed their write-up?

Astomoi need to eat.

It's re-fluffed as "smelling the food", but that makes no difference since the food becomes useless afterwards just the same. They don't actually ingest it (and are thus immune to ingested poisons, yes), but mechanicaly, their only real difference is said immunity to ingested poisons (which rarely matter to PCs, anyway) and which is balanced by them being weaker against inhaled poisons (which matter far more).

They also have the scent ability, so even if they can't see you, they can still track and find you. And their hearing isn't limited, even if they can't talk.

/Edith: And I just noticed I replied to a necro'ed topic.
Also, @Saraphali - Astomoi can read just fine. They're just colorblind and restricted to 60 foot range.

Yeah, I noticed that since I was researching to write a new post without realizing this is a necro of a thread I already wrote on.

But even with the need for food, astomoi are not picky eaters. They are immune to ingested poisons (since they never actually eat the food, just pick out the nutrients). So they are perfectly content to eat things that nothing else can even dare to. I am sure there is some sea side town where there is an astomoi buying up all the pufferfish.


I am still interested in this race, I think their energy intake method should probably define their society.

Astomoi PFSRD entry wrote:
... Instead, they rely on their powerful minds to sense the world around them, and subsist on nutrients absorbed from the air. This can turn against them, however, as powerful smells and inhaled poisons can render an astomoi helpless. ...

With the assumption of a preference for enclosed spaces to protect themselves from airborne and/or ranged predators it seems like any animals they would form relationships with would be able to warn them of bad air? Also the fact the they absorb nutrients directly from the air seems like it would point towards a more nomadic lifestyle, the only thing you'd need to stop to do on a daily basis is sleep. Good thing Golarion has such an extensive tunnel/cavern system i guess.

Actually now that i look a little harder I think Astomoi would avoid settlements altogether with that negative to disease. (Medieval) Cities are the breeding grounds of disease, although i guess there could be such a thing as an astomoi enclave in the middle of a city that you could reach from an underground passage or something... although if they were averse to cities in the first place i don't see why they'd want one.

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