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Had an encounter in a session this past Sunday where my sorcerer attempted to shadow conjuration a create pit against a clay golem and the GM ruled the golem walked over the pit and ignored it since it allowed SR. No problem, gotta keep the game moving and didn't want to push a rules debate, but it did raise the question for me of how the golems interact with such spells. Would a golem be able to walk through a greater shadow conjuration wall of stone despite its instantaneous duration? My assumption would be the pit is affecting the floor still, not the golem directly, and the wall might just be flimsier but they'd still do something since they're at least partially real.
The relevant rules seemed to be:
"Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature's mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Spell-resistant creatures can be harmed by a spell when they are not being directly affected."
"Magic actually has to be working for spell resistance to apply. Spells that have instantaneous durations but lasting results aren't subject to spell resistance unless the resistant creature is exposed to the spell the instant it is cast"
But maybe shadow spells are just inherently magical in a way that creatures with SR get to ignore regardless of what they're doing.
I've been searching to find a definitive answer on this and didn't want to necro an old only partially related thread, but if anyone can point me to the answer or happens to know, I'd be very grateful. :-)
Thanks!
If the spell allows SR, Golems ignore it with their Magic Immunity (unbeatable SR).
This are the rules of magic.
Had an encounter in a session this past Sunday where my sorcerer attempted to shadow conjuration a create pit against a clay golem and the GM ruled the golem walked over the pit and ignored it since it allowed SR.
Your GM ruled correctly. The relevant line is actually in the shadow conjuration spell itself:
In addition, any effect created by shadow conjuration allows spell resistance, even if the spell it is simulating does not.
Therefore, the create pit effect allows spell resistance, which the golem automatically wins.
How would that interact with an instantaneous effect like wall of stone? Does the golem just walk through it?
How would that interact with an instantaneous effect like wall of stone? Does the golem just walk through it?
As far as I tell, that is correct. if you make an illusionary wall of stone via shadow conjuration, the golem automatically treats it like the illusion that it is.
That shouldn't be surprising. Even ordinary humans have a very good chance of just walking through the wall of stone, since it's only "20% real," whatever that means.
since it's only "20% real," whatever that means.
Well, I think that's where a lot of my confusion is with interpreting the functionality of the spell. If I mimicked Summon Monster 3 and summoned a shadow conjuration Ape and told it to block a doorway, would the golem just walk through it? Would the summoned creature even be able to attack the golem?
I guess that would also mean I could make a wall of stone bridge with shadow conjuration and the golem chasing me would just fall through, so you could make pit traps that work exclusively on golems.
since it's only "20% real," whatever that means.Well, I think that's where a lot of my confusion is with interpreting the functionality of the spell. If I mimicked Summon Monster 3 and summoned a shadow conjuration Ape and told it to block a doorway, would the golem just walk through it?
Yes.
Would the summoned creature even be able to attack the golem?
No. (More accurately, you could certainly roll the dice, but the attack would have no effect, any more than you would be hurt if you were standing in front of a movie screen when Elmer Fudd fired his shotgun.)
I guess that would also mean I could make a wall of stone bridge with shadow conjuration and the golem chasing me would just fall through, so you could make pit traps that work exclusively on golems.
Yes. That's a cunning use of the spell. But it's not limited to golems. If you're up against something with true seeing, for example, you could use the same trick. Your minions, who presumably don't know that it's an illusion, would run right over the bridge, but the true-seeing demon that is chasing them would fall right in.
Yes. That's a cunning use of the spell. But it's not limited to golems. If you're up against something with true seeing, for example, you could use the same trick. Your minions, who presumably don't know that it's an illusion, would run right over the bridge, but the true-seeing demon that is chasing them would fall right in.
Well, based on what you're saying the demon would have a 40% chance of falling through, since it'd work 60% of the time with greater shadow conjuration once it was recognized as semi-real? Unless the demon also had spell resistance, in which case I'd have to make a spell resistance check to see if it ignored it entirely for that reason.
Thanks very much for the responses!
Well, based on what you're saying the demon would have a 40% chance of falling through, since it'd work 60% of the time with greater shadow conjuration once it was recognized as semi-real? Unless the demon also had spell resistance, in which case I'd have to make a spell resistance check to see if it ignored it entirely for that reason.
Yes. That's a cunning use of the spell. But it's not limited to golems. If you're up against something with true seeing, for example, you could use the same trick. Your minions, who presumably don't know that it's an illusion, would run right over the bridge, but the true-seeing demon that is chasing them would fall right in.
Yes. So it's not a perfect trap, but (ironically) it's a trap that works better and better as the demon gets more and more powerful (because its SR is harder and harder to beat).
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I would chime in here to agree that in general while the spell would fail to be 100% real, it would still be 20% real. But it has to be looked on a case to case basis.
So shadow gorilla standing in the door way would get to attack (and with 20% real hp probably 1 punched back to the shadow plane).
My reasoning here is that Golems or other High SR creatures don't 'unsummon' summoned creatures just by interacting with them. So while the Shadow Summoned Monster is revealed as such it is still a summoned creature and not a pure illusion.
The pit however I'm not sure about because it isn't really a pit it's a dimensional space.
If you could use some kind of "Shadow Dig" then I would rule that yes it would be 20% effective because 20% is REAL displacement of the ground. But the create pit line produces a dimensional space so to speak even extending to making 50' drops on board a 20' high ship for example.
As the whole thing is a spell effect regardless of shadow or not then I would say the GM ruled this case correctly.
A shadow wall of Stone or Iron would have 20% of the hit points but would probably have the full hardness as the material is STILL stone or Iron, just not as much of it (the rest is buttressed by shadowstuff)
I would chime in here to agree that in general while the spell would fail to be 100% real, it would still be 20% real. But it has to be looked on a case to case basis.
So shadow gorilla standing in the door way would get to attack (and with 20% real hp probably 1 punched back to the shadow plane).
My reasoning here is that Golems or other High SR creatures don't 'unsummon' summoned creatures just by interacting with them. So while the Shadow Summoned Monster is revealed as such it is still a summoned creature and not a pure illusion.The pit however I'm not sure about because it isn't really a pit it's a dimensional space.
If you could use some kind of "Shadow Dig" then I would rule that yes it would be 20% effective because 20% is REAL displacement of the ground. But the create pit line produces a dimensional space so to speak even extending to making 50' drops on board a 20' high ship for example.
As the whole thing is a spell effect regardless of shadow or not then I would say the GM ruled this case correctly.A shadow wall of Stone or Iron would have 20% of the hit points but would probably have the full hardness as the material is STILL stone or Iron, just not as much of it (the rest is buttressed by shadowstuff)
Well, regular create pit works quite well against golems, so it being an extradimensional space doesn't seem to be the problem. The question is what making these spells that don't normally allow spell resistance allow spell resistance means. In some cases like glitterdust where it is directly affecting a creature it makes sense, but these other cases with walls seem much more confusing. Since spell resist completely negates the magic's effect on the creature, it seems like the golem would be able to ignore it. But if that was the case, then why can't a golem just walk through wall of force? That spell doesn't allow spell resistance, which would imply that spell resistance doesn't let you simply walk through blocking magic barriers.
I like the interpretation that the materials are just weaker than normal against creatures that disbelieve or resist, since that causes the fewest headaches, but it says XX% likely to work for "shadow objects or substances." The reduced hp only seems to refer to summoned creatures. And that doesn't even get into spell resistance and its total immunity.
The spell shadow weapon indicates the spell does work minimally on objects, which implies it doesn't have a maybe/maybe not existence but rather a reduced one, which might imply the same for conjurations, but now we're getting into the forest :) And it still gets dispelled if you try to hit a creature that spell resists.
Again, I very much appreciate the responses. Thank you! :)
Hold on, Create Pit does not target the golem it targets the ground and actually creates a pit. The golem would still be effected by it and have to avoid the hole it created.
Create pit has a no in the SR line.
Shadow Conjuration specifically says that even if the spell doesn't normally allow SR, that spells replicated with Shadow Conjuration do.
Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless the affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth (20%) damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is only 20% likely to occur. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow conjuration's level (4th) rather than the spell's normal level. In addition, any effect created by shadow conjuration allows spell resistance, even if the spell it is simulating does not. Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work.
Also worth noting, create pit creates a magical extradimensional space to fall into. It doesn't displace the dirt below, it's like you cast a spell that creates a temporary portable hole.
The golem is immune to magic, so it is immune to the magic that allows creates to pass into the extradimensional space.
Can a golem pass through a Gate spell passageway? Of course it can, it doesn't interact with the gate itself. Similarly, a Golem doesn't interact with the pit until it hits the bottom.
illusions don't get a save unless interacted with - creating a stone wall - the golem being mindless - should treat it like a stone wall - that is taking an action to attack it and bash it down.
At that point it would get the SR roll - and if that failed (from the golems perspective) it would get a will save....
Just like the pit - it should treat the pit as a real obstacle if it's in front of the golem - it can't determine it's fake from just seeing it - seeing the illusion doesn't give you a will save - and until interacted with the golem doesn't get an SR check or will save.
At the very minimum it should cause the golem to loose an action or movement. Unless you created the pit directly under the golem - in which case it gets the SR check and such as soon as the spell is cast - because you've forced the interaction at that point.
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Hold on, Create Pit does not target the golem it targets the ground and actually creates a pit. The golem would still be effected by it and have to avoid the hole it created.
Create pit has a no in the SR line.
Shadow Conjuration specifically says that even if the spell doesn't normally allow SR, that spells replicated with Shadow Conjuration do.
Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless the affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth (20%) damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is only 20% likely to occur. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow conjuration's level (4th) rather than the spell's normal level. In addition, any effect created by shadow conjuration allows spell resistance, even if the spell it is simulating does not. Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work.Also worth noting, create pit creates a magical extradimensional space to fall into. It doesn't displace the dirt below, it's like you cast a spell that creates a temporary portable hole.
The golem is immune to magic, so it is immune to the magic that allows creates to pass into the extradimensional space.
ok granted but you still are not targeting the golem with the spell, you are targeting the ground, so now golems are immune to extra dimensional spaces? i do not understand that. they can just walk over the ground like the "portal" is non existent?
would a normal create pit work?
would a normal create pit work?
I believe so. create pit normally doesn't allow spell resistance.
Can a golem pass through a Gate spell passageway? Of course it can, it doesn't interact with the gate itself. Similarly, a Golem doesn't interact with the pit until it hits the bottom.
It passes through a Gate spell because Gate doesn't allow Spell Resistance.
A normal Create Pit doesn't allow SR either. But one created using Shadow Conjuration does, as I showed in my previous post. It means it functions differently from a normal create pit spell. Why? Because it is part shadow and part illusion. Because it is partially an illusion/shadow the golem simply ignores it completely (shadow conjuration made it allow SR and so the Golem ignores the effect).
ok granted but you still are not targeting the golem with the spell, you are targeting the ground, so now golems are immune to extra dimensional spaces? i do not understand that. they can just walk over the ground like the "portal" is non existent?
would a normal create pit work?
A normal create pit would work fine. Unfortunately this one is created by Shadow Conjuration and changes how it normally works.
Because it's shadow/illusion of create pit its not real in the same way things produced by normal conjuration magic are.
I believe that shadow conjuration and golems interact somewhat like whether casting a spell is an 'attack' for deciding if invisibility is ended. Basically if the golem is in the area of effect, would directly take damage, or make a save or something spell resistance applies, and hence the golem is immune.
Building a stone wall (albeit a stone wall with 20% hit points) wouldn't do any of those things, and so would be as real for the golem as anyone else. Basically, as the OP says, the spell itself isn't interacting with the Golem.
Are there any examples of spells that are not conjuration that create an object to be interacted with that allow spell resistance?
That would be guidance on how to appropriately handle this situation.
The problem here is that conjuration spells don't allow spell resistance, but now using Shadow Conjuration you're making them allow for spell resistance. You're breaking the rule of how things normally work, so it's a bit of a confusing situation.
Are there any examples of spells that are not conjuration that create an object to be interacted with that allow spell resistance?
That would be guidance on how to appropriately handle this situation.
The problem here is that conjuration spells don't allow spell resistance, but now using Shadow Conjuration you're making them allow for spell resistance. You're breaking the rule of how things normally work, so it's a bit of a confusing situation.
Wall of Ice, maybe? But that doesn't really clarify how unless I am missing something.
I would guess only to avoid getting stuck inside.
EDIT: Wall of Sound, too.
Effect Spells: Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.
Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that's already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.
This is true for any effect spell - which is something to consider for other illusions that have spell resistance...
like silence.
I'm wondering if we're interpreting the spell resistance clause on shadow conjuration too broadly, increasing the scope of what spell resistance does rather than applying it to the spell and then letting the spell resolve with that new condition.
For example in the case of acid arrow, normally there's no save and no spell resistance, but when we shadow conjure it, they now have a save to recognize its partially illusory, and spell resistance applies, since we've made an attack that affects "the resistant creature's mind or body" per the rules on when spell resistance applies.
Now if we look at a spell like wall of ice which allows spell resistance, my reading of it would be that the spell resistance would apply to the damage dealt by the wall, rather than to the ice itself. There is a 3.5 article from 2005 that specifically talks about using wall of ice to pen in a golem. (see Winning Tactics against Golems By Eric Cagle). Unfortunately I couldn't find a similar Pathfinder reference, but if the idea carries over, then it would go against the idea that golems can simply walk through any magical creation that allows spell resistance.
In further support, the spell veil refers to the interaction with spell resistance as such: "Unwilling targets can negate the spell's effect on them by making Will saves or with Spell Resistance. Those who interact with the subjects can attempt Will disbelief saves to see through the glamer, but Spell Resistance doesn't help." Emphasis mine. It's when the spell is acting on the target's mind or body that spell resistance applies, but not interaction.
So my thinking based on this, is that you would adjudicate the spells as normal but if they have a direct effect on the creature's mind or body, then spell resistance applies, even if the spell wouldn't normally allow it. Effectively that the "when spell resistance applies" rules still govern the shadow conjuration spell resistance clause, and are not expanded by that clause to include all interactions with the spell.
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My take is that in most cases spell resistance is the equivalent of making a saving throw against the effect. There are exceptions for spells which have a partial effect even on a successful save and some other corner cases, but most of the time the results of resisting a spell are identical to the results of saving against it.
Applying that logic to the 'special shadow magic SR clause' I'd hold that creatures which make their SR check (or golems all the time) are treated as if they had saved against the effect and thus take reduced damage / interact with the only partially real version... just as if they had saved against the shadow illusion. They don't ignore the effect entirely... unless the base spell allows SR to cancel the effect.
So... shadow evocation fireball... fireball allows SR, so resisting the spell would cancel the effect entirely just like a normal fireball.
Shadow conjuration summon monster... the base spell doesn't allow SR, but the shadow effect does. In this case resisting would cause the summoned monster to be only partially real as described in the spell.
I'd probably adjudicate create pit to do reduced falling damage rather than having a percentage chance not to fall in at all.