Hello :D. I have a bunch of questions about creatures being on fire, and can't find answers I'd be confident quoting in PFS, so hopefully the forums can help me out.
I'll start by quoting the official rules for catching on fire, from here.
Catching on Fire wrote: Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and non-instantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don't normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.
Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character's clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out—that is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he's no longer on fire.
A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.
Those whose clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.
I'll base my questions upon the Touch Of Combustion spell (bottom of the page, sorry I don't know a better source).
Touch Of Combustion wrote: Your successful melee touch attack causes the target to ignite in a violent burst of flame, dealing 1d6 points of fire damage. If it fails its saving throw, the target also catches on fire. If the target catches fire, on the first round thereafter, creatures adjacent to it (including you) must each succeed at a Reflex save or take 1d4 points of fire damage. Premise: Creature A casts Touch Of Combustion on creature B, who has no special defences against fire. The spell connects and creature B fails their saving throw, so they catch on fire.
Questions:
- When does creature B roll their next saving throw against being on fire, on the next turn of creature A, or their own next turn? (Catching on Fire says "In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw.")
- What action is it for creature B to perform the reflex saving throw, if any?
- Catching on fire says "rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus". Since it says "another save", does this mean creature B can fail their first saving throw, take 1d6 damage, then roll on the ground to receive "another save" with a +4 bonus? Also, would failing this save cause another 1d6 damage? (I really hope not, but want to be sure.)
- If the last point is true, can creature B only roll on the ground on its second save, or can it attempt to gain a bonus on its first save to avoid any fire damage that round?
- What action is "rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like" to gain a +4 bonus? Personally I could see anywhere from free (dropping prone), through move (dropping prone and rolling about), standard (you're actively trying to put yourself out), or full-round (the alchemist's explosive bomb discovery requires this, but it may be "stronger" being-on-fire), but haven't found a clear answer.
- What would be the DC for creature B to stop being on fire after the initial save when it was hit by the spell? Would it be the DC of the spell, or DC15 as given in Catching on Fire?
Citations of answers would be very appreciated, since I want to be able to share these rules with others. Thanks for any help :).
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
1) On the turn of creature A. Well, strictly "just before".
Quote: When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on. 2) Saving throws are reactive and free, and never in themselves cost an action. A sleeping creature can still make reflex saves.
3) Yes, but creature B has to do that on its own turn. Also, no, though failing the save for being on fire will mean that you take damage for being on fire on creature A's initiative count.
4) Not on the first save. The first save happens at the time the spell is cast, which is not on creature B's turn, so unless creature B has a way to drop and roll as an immediate action, it has to wait for its own turn.
5) Not sure. It's at least a move action, since it's not just dropping prone. Unless someone can cite a better source, I'd start with a move action and change it to a standard if I thought it was too easy.
6) Spell DC. It's an effect of the spell, not a normal fire.
I'm pretty sure it can't be as bad as beeing Nauseated.
Artificial 20 wrote: When does creature B roll their next saving throw against being on fire, on the next turn of creature A, or their own next turn? (Catching on Fire says "In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw.") As mentioned above, generally one complete round after the initial application. Many "continuous effects" specify different times when they must be applied or checked again, so it admittedly can get confusing.
Quote: What action is it for creature B to perform the reflex saving throw, if any? Saving throws are non-actions.
Quote: Catching on fire says "rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus". Since it says "another save", does this mean creature B can fail their first saving throw, take 1d6 damage, then roll on the ground to receive "another save" with a +4 bonus? Also, would failing this save cause another 1d6 damage? (I really hope not, but want to be sure.) Generally, additional saves do not trigger additional "bad stuff" unless the effect specifically says so. So they could have taken 1d6 from a failed save earlier, then roll around to try to put it out for a new save (and possible fail without taking more damage).
Quote: If the last point is true, can creature B only roll on the ground on its second save, or can it attempt to gain a bonus on its first save to avoid any fire damage that round? You don't get to roll around in response to making a save. Instead, rolling around grants you an additional save at a +4 bonus.
Quote: What action is "rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like" to gain a +4 bonus? Personally I could see anywhere from free (dropping prone), through move (dropping prone and rolling about), standard (you're actively trying to put yourself out), or full-round (the alchemist's explosive bomb discovery requires this, but it may be "stronger" being-on-fire), but haven't found a clear answer. Odd that it doesn't state the action type. I'd be inclined to make it a full round action and certainly not less than a standard action.
Quote: What would be the DC for creature B to stop being on fire after the initial save when it was hit by the spell? Would it be the DC of the spell, or DC15 as given in Catching on Fire? If they fail the save versus the spell, they automatically catch on fire. Every subsequent save would be at the normal DC for being on fire (DC 15). This spell is instantaneous, so the lingering fire is just normal fire using the normal rules for being on fire.
The DC that adjacent creatures need to make on the first round thereafter is actually fairly ambiguous. Since the spell has ended, it shouldn't be setting DCs. Yet at the same time, this effect is something additional to the normal on-fire rules. I don't have a strong opinion either way and I imagine you'll see table variation on this.
Thanks very much Chemlak and Byakko (and Kchaka, who I agree with - being physically ignited in no way compares to stomach distress).
It seems like people see the first 4 points the same way I would, which is good :D. The 5th one is what I'm most stuck with, since it varies the impact of igniting an opponent from minor distraction up to significant action economy drain if they take the second save (which I could see an animal-intelligence enemy maybe doing even if it's not tactically ideal).
To add fuel to the topic, I've played alongside an alchemist who uses the Explosive Bomb discovery (sorry I can't anchor that to the exact discovery), which can also set targets on fire.
Explosive bomb* wrote: Explosive bomb*: The alchemist's bombs now have a splash radius of 10 feet rather than 5 feet. Creatures that take a direct hit from an explosive bomb catch fire, taking 1d6 points of fire damage each round until the fire is extinguished. Extinguishing the flames is a full-round action that requires a Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target with a +2 to the save. Dousing the target with at least 2 gallons of water automatically extinguishes the flames. This clearly states "Extinguishing the flames is a full-round action", but it also says "Rolling on the ground provides the target with a +2 to the save", rather than a +4, suggesting it's more potent than normal fire. If you accept that it works differently than normal fire, I think a strict reading implies it doesn't give you a "passive" reflex to not catch fire or per round either, so I haven't felt very confident basing default being-on-fire rules on this. It's only the best example I know.
I'm not too savvy with the forums, but if this is a real ambiguity with some core rules, maybe people could hit the FAQ button if they agree :)?
Bumping this to see if anyone knows an answer for point 5. If not should I FAQ it?
As written? Sure it is more potent and you don't get an automatic save.
Seeing how it work it is some kind of sticky burning gel, not only your clothes, hairs and equipment catching fire.
Thanks Diego Rossi. I meant to say I can see Explosive Bomb's stronger, but what is the action for "rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like" to gain a +4 bonus with normal fire? And does it (whatever it is) provoke an attack of opportunity? Sorry I was unclear :).
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