What type of action is it to use a Robe of Needles?


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

PRD:Robe of Needles, Ultimate Equipment wrote:

ROBE OF NEEDLES

Price 1,000 gp; Aura faint evocation; CL5th; Weight 4 lbs.
This dark, hooded robe has six long, silvery, razor-sharp needles protruding from the bottom of its loose sleeves, three on each side. The wearer can launch one needle as a ranged touch attack. The needle counts as a thrown weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. If the needle hits, it embeds itself in the target's flesh, dealing 1 point of piercing damage and 1 point of bleed damage. A creature can pull out the needle as a full-round action, which ends the bleed effect. The needle is destroyed if an attack with it misses or when it is removed from a creature it was embedded in. The robe regrows all spent needles each morning.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Cost 500 gp
Craft Wondrous Item, bleed

Is it a standard action to fire one needle, or is it treated as a thrown weapon? Meaning if your BAB was high enough you could have iteratives?


Activating a magic item is a standard action that does not provoke AoOs unless specified otherwise. So it is a standard action to make the robe do whatever effect it says, in this case launch one needle.

I would, though, as a GM be inclined to houserule it so that you can throw multiple needles with the understanding that if any unintended consequences resulted, which I can't foresee happening with such a minor effect, then it would go back to the standard action for one needle.

Edit: Short answer is, normally a standard for one needle but ask your GM.

Sovereign Court

The reason I am questioning it is because of "The needle counts as a thrown weapon with a range increment of 10 feet."

A lot of the other attack type gear (crown of blasting, etc) say "on command".


Firebug wrote:
The reason I am questioning it is because of "The needle counts as a thrown weapon with a range increment of 10 feet."

Yes, so any feats that apply to thrown weapons, such as distance thrower, apply to the attack made with the needle.

It is still a standard action to activate the robe and activating the robe still launches one needle and that one needle counts as a thrown weapon with a 10' range increment.

Sovereign Court

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The way I see it is that it falls under "use activated" for magic item activation. Which states:

Prd wrote:
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.

The important bits there is that it states it's a standard action, or no action at all. And if the item's activation is subsumed in its use its a no action. IE making the attack is the "costly" bit time-wise, not readying the needle.


Items that require no action are those that just the normal use of the item results in the effect. Like drinking a potion or putting on a ring of protection. Normal use of a robe is wearing it. Just putting on the robe does not automatically launch needles. It requires more effort than just using the robe as a robe to do so. Therefore, it is a standard action.

Sovereign Court

And I'd say normal use of treating it like a thrown weapon... is throwing the weapon.

Helm of the mammoth lords requires a standard action to attack with the gore attack then? It's action is not specified. The normal use of a helm is wearing it, it doesn't suddenly gore every one next to you just because you are wearing it. But most (if not all) people treat it as a natural attack that can be added to a full attack. The difference is the needles are ranged, not a natural attack, and limited use per day.


The difference is that the Helm of the Mammoth Lord provides a continuous effect of having a gore attack available, not this one's activated ability of firing a needle.

This item would've needed to say "The wearer gains the ability to make ranged attacks with needles as if they were thrown weapons.", "The Robes provide ranged needle attacks which function as thrown weapons.", or similar to function the same as the helm.

It's a subtle, but important, difference.


See I always read it as.. always on. there was no activation. or at most its activating the ability to use the items. (like ring of chameleon or ring of protection or techincally even most enchantments on weapons or armour. Once to get it going but at that point it is like a normal item)

It says in the first line
"This dark, hooded robe has six long, silvery, razor-sharp needles protruding from the bottom of its loose sleeves, three on each side. The wearer can launch one needle as a ranged touch attack."

The needles are always there, until use.
Then it tells you what that weapon is used as.

It does not specify there is an action to grow the needles. Nothing up there specifies "activated ability"
The wording it uses is quite clear. the user can use one needle per ranged touch attack. Everything else about this falls under ranged touch attack rules. Which are normal BAB rules.

There are other examples (names i forget) of similar items that specify actions, because those items' weapon effects are not always there.

This items weapon effects are always on.
You could argue that a standard action is needed to activate the ability to use the needles. (due to the lack of any activation specification on the item) But I dont' think it's a standard to throw them. As it states its used as a weapon. As opposed to purely justa ranged touch attack.

======
similiar to the helm of the mammoth lord mention above.
the helm is there, worn the horns are there. and it provides you with a gore attack.

both items only specify that A) the item weapon is always there (until used for the day in the hood's case) and B) what attack type it is to use it . A gore attack, and a ranged touch attack. Both attack types are those which can be used with normal BAB moves.

both list that the attack item is always there.
------

Liberty's Edge

Firebug wrote:
PRD:Robe of Needles, Ultimate Equipment wrote:

ROBE OF NEEDLES

Price 1,000 gp; Aura faint evocation; CL5th; Weight 4 lbs.
This dark, hooded robe has six long, silvery, razor-sharp needles protruding from the bottom of its loose sleeves, three on each side. The wearer can launch one needle as a ranged touch attack. The needle counts as a thrown weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. If the needle hits, it embeds itself in the target's flesh, dealing 1 point of piercing damage and 1 point of bleed damage. A creature can pull out the needle as a full-round action, which ends the bleed effect. The needle is destroyed if an attack with it misses or when it is removed from a creature it was embedded in. The robe regrows all spent needles each morning.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Cost 500 gp
Craft Wondrous Item, bleed

Is it a standard action to fire one needle, or is it treated as a thrown weapon? Meaning if your BAB was high enough you could have iteratives?

Notice the bolded part. That is what you get when you activate the item. You aren't detaching the needle and throwing it with your hand. You are using the magic item.

Getting a touch attack instead of a normal attack is a powerful effect and generally you can't make more than 1 touch attack in a round (there are exceptions).
So my interpretation is that you are activating the item to make the attack, and activating a magic item is a standard action.

Note that that has an interesting corollary: you can attack with this item even if your hands are encumbered.

Another point: touch attacks don't benefit from you strength bonus.

@Zwordsman You either are activating the magic item to fire the needle, and so use a standard action, or you are detaching the needles (but it don't say that) and throwing them by hand.
For your interpretation to work it should work in the second way. At that point it should specify what action you should use to detach the needle. As it don't say anything about that we can be fairly sure that it isn't the intended activation method.


When I first read it, it read to me that it was more of a use activated item, with the action subsumed in the attack (like using a magic weapon).

Reading the above posts, I agree its not actual specific enough for that, but unless it caused some issue I would continue running it that way.

Yes, that would allow you to full attack with it, but you only get six needles a day, and they only do 1 dmg and 1 bleed each.

Diego, is there a citation that ranched touch attacks do not get strength to dmg? It says to treat it as a thrown weapon, and you add Str to thrown weapons.

Liberty's Edge

Samasboy1 wrote:


Diego, is there a citation that ranched touch attacks do not get strength to dmg? It says to treat it as a thrown weapon, and you add Str to thrown weapons.

I am fairly sure that it is a citation of something found in the middle of other rules, but currently I am unable to find the citation so it can be something misremembered.

Make it a 75% chance that I am right wrong.

If that was an universal rule this piece of text in flame blade wouldn't be needed: "Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage + 1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage."


Weirdly I thought the same as Diego.
but now I can't find the line I was thinking of..

Is there another spot for touch attacks other than this?

Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.


As far as I know, there's no rule stating that touch attacks are unable to receive a strength (or dexterity) bonus to damage, although most such attacks are worded to preclude such a modifier.

In my opinion, the attack from the magic item is generated by the robe and isn't actually being thrown by the wearer, thus it doesn't receive a strength damage modifier. But I wouldn't object to a GM ruling that it does. Expect table variation on this.


its not being thrown but it specifically calls it out as a thrown weapon, which would be a pointless statement if you weren't allowed to then apply thrown weapon modifiers to it.

EDIT: my only experience with the item was on a grippli alchemist who applied poisons to the needles


Diego Rossi wrote:
Robe of Needles wrote:
The wearer can launch one needle as a ranged touch attack.
Notice the bolded part. That is what you get when you activate the item. You aren't detaching the needle and throwing it with your hand. You are using the magic item.... So my interpretation is that you are activating the item to make the attack, and activating a magic item is a standard action.

But doesn't the fact that that it says it's an attack imply that the action is an Attack Action?

Diego Rossi wrote:
Getting a touch attack instead of a normal attack is a powerful effect and generally you can't make more than 1 touch attack in a round (there are exceptions).

But 1 point of damage + a 1 point Bleed is not very much damage at all. The attack is not very powerful unless you have something else going on to make it more powerful, such as Sneak Attack Damage, poison, or maybe Deadly Aim? Perhaps the Explosive Missile Alchemal Discovery?

I'm not sure the benefit of making it an Attack Action makes the item all that broken. You are only getting extra needles according to your BAB. Each successive attack is at -5 compared with the last one, even if it is a Touch Attack, I'm not super impressed with it. The characters who would make a lot of use of the Robe of Needles are characters like Rogues, Ninjas, and Alchemists who are not Full BAB characters as it is: Their BABs are in no hurry to get above +6, and the 3rd attack is many levels away. And the maximum output is 6 needles/day. Based on this, though, I don't suppose I would care very much if my GM did tell me it was a Standard Action.

The last 2 points are minor points.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Robe of Needles wrote:
The wearer can launch one needle as a ranged touch attack.
Notice the bolded part. That is what you get when you activate the item. You aren't detaching the needle and throwing it with your hand. You are using the magic item.... So my interpretation is that you are activating the item to make the attack, and activating a magic item is a standard action.

But doesn't the fact that that it says it's an attack imply that the action is an Attack Action?

No. An Attack Action is a specific attack using a standard action to make it. An attack is just an attack, and could be a standard action attack, an AoO attack, an attack made as part of a full attack, etc.

The RAW isn't terribly clear on this one, but I'm actually with Firebug on the intent of this. Make a ranged touch attack to use a needle. If you can make more than one attack in a round, you can fire multiple needles per round.

The activation isn't a command word, or standard action. The activation is "make an attack" (IMO).


This sadly will very much be a table variation thing. and probably avoid PFS.

Personally, i think its something you can keep, like cat boots, past low level if its just a normal ranged attack.
So I personally hope for more folks opting for that. It's still pretty limited in ability.
6 a day giving a ranged attack that does 1/1Bleed. No DA (touch attack) . Posibly str, and pbs, maybe startoss style at most.
isn't really messy in general
It would be a great tool for Sneak Attack folks. but not a main mode. in fact it would become a great opening tool, but not often for much else.

but yeah. I'll always be in the boat that items like this, and Rod of Ice are activate when used in the type of attack it specifies. similiar to other items of the nature.
that just makes them actually usable rather than a gimicky item that is just amusing to have


its the same distinction that is made for ray spells. it is a standard(barring metamagic or whatever) to cast them but you then make a ranged attack roll in order to hit.

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