that one spell that requires a diamond worth 5000 gp?


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 120 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

resurrection is the spell that requires a diamond worth 5000 gp as a material cost. i always though it meant 5000gp worth of diamonds. so is it one diamond or many diamonds worth 5000 gp?


zainale wrote:
resurrection is the spell that requires a diamond worth 5000 gp as a material cost. i always though it meant 5000gp worth of diamonds. so is it one diamond or many diamonds worth 5000 gp?

It says diamond (singular), not diamonds (plural). It is a single 5000gp diamond. In 3.5 D&D, you could use multiple diamonds.

Also, raise dead is the spell with the 5000gp diamond. Resurrection requires a 10000gp diamond.


zainale wrote:
well good luck ever finding one of that size

Size isn't an issue. A finely cut smaller diamond may be worth more than a rough cut (or raw) larger diamond.


As has been explained to me, its not just size but cut, clarity, and karat. Go to a jewelry store and ask for a range of diamond prices and you'll get some pretty large variations based on those three things.


sorry jeraa should not have snapped at you like that. i have a villainous dm.

Grand Lodge

Raise Dead: Components V, S, M (diamond worth 5,000 gp), DF
Resurrection: Components V, S, M (diamond worth 10,000 gp), DF
True Resurrection: Components V, S, M, DF (diamond worth 25,000 gp)


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Just get someone to sell you a crappy diamond for a high price, problem solved.


11 people marked this as a favorite.
2015 me wrote:

Apprentice: "Master I got that diamond you wanted and I managed to get you a 20% discount, it only cost 20,000gp"

MasterMage:"..."

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

6 people marked this as a favorite.

If you think deBeers ads for engagement rings drove up diamond prices, think about how they'd rise if they could actually bring the dead back to life.

10k gp diamond in that market is probably tiny, brown, and murky.


9 people marked this as a favorite.

Or 'diamond' could be referring to the mineral diamond as opposed to a singular diamond.

Imagine if the cost of a spell was "Copper worth 5000gp".

Isn't English fun?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
CampinCarl9127 wrote:

Or 'diamond' could be referring to the mineral diamond as opposed to a singular diamond.

Imagine if the cost of a spell was "Copper worth 5000gp".

Isn't English fun?

This is always how I'd interpreted it. (Yes, English is!)


A diamond worth 25k that is sold to you for 20k is still a diamond worth 25k.


rule lawyers are still going to rule against your favor.
___
i thought the same as well campin.


its a shame i can ask someone who wrote the darn book.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

If nobody will buy a diamond worth 25k for 25k, is it really worth 25k? :)

Scarab Sages

I think the intention is that the 5k is the amount you paid for it, not some system of current market value.

The only time the diamond should have less value that the amount you paid is if the GM is role playing a barter system with haggling and you rolled really poorly.


Tacticslion wrote:
CampinCarl9127 wrote:

Or 'diamond' could be referring to the mineral diamond as opposed to a singular diamond.

Imagine if the cost of a spell was "Copper worth 5000gp".

Isn't English fun?

This is always how I'd interpreted it. (Yes, English is!)

Eh, the fact that some material components are specified as 'diamond dust' worth XXXXgp kind of indicates that when they say diamond, they mean 'a' diamond. Otherwise there really is no practical difference between 'diamond' and 'diamond dust'.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

One weird feature of Pathfinder and D&D 3.5 is the idea that items have intrinsic prices. Would a 5000 GP diamond lose all of its value if you stole it (and thus obtained it for a price of 0 GP)?


_Ozy_ wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
CampinCarl9127 wrote:

Or 'diamond' could be referring to the mineral diamond as opposed to a singular diamond.

Imagine if the cost of a spell was "Copper worth 5000gp".

Isn't English fun?

This is always how I'd interpreted it. (Yes, English is!)
Eh, the fact that some material components are specified as 'diamond dust' worth XXXXgp kind of indicates that when they say diamond, they mean 'a' diamond. Otherwise there really is no practical difference between 'diamond' and 'diamond dust'.

I can see that. I still followed the other interpretation, always presuming that diamond dust needed to be in a specific form of dust.

That is, in fact, a practical difference - one specifically needs to be dust, the other does not.

The 'a' could have been excised for space reasons, and I can easily see that way of reading it. I don't begrudge anyone or even think they're (necessarily) wrong. My comment was explicitly about how I'd always interpreted it; I do think that there are enough variables, and English is flexible enough, that a GM could interpret it either way without dipping into "House Rules" territory. I wouldn't really mind, either way.

But it's much shorter to say,

me wrote:
This is always how I'd interpreted it. (Yes, English is!)

... so I did. :)

EDIT: KNOTT, you, you NINJA! (Well played, sir...)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The fabricate spell can be used to combine multiple smaller diamonds into one larger one with the same overall value. Or turn a costly one into a bunch of dust.


Tacticslion wrote:


I can see that. I still followed the other interpretation, always presuming that diamond dust needed to be in a specific form of dust.

That is, in fact, a practical difference - one specifically needs to be dust, the other does not.

Well, sure, but dust would work for both then, right? And it's pretty trivial to turn diamonds to dust. So, again, no practical difference, just carry around the dust and you're good.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

As long as you have someone who can cast fabricate.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I feel like the real question is: who cares? What GM would possibly go "Oh yes there is hundreds of thousands of gold worth of diamonds available to purchase in the city, but none of them are singularly big enough for the spell".

If they're in a civilization with a large enough economy to buy that much diamond, just have them spend the money and give them the damn diamond.


CampinCarl9127 wrote:

I feel like the real question is: who cares? What GM would possibly go "Oh yes there is hundreds of thousands of gold worth of diamonds available to purchase in the city, but none of them are singularly big enough for the spell".

If they're in a civilization with a large enough economy to buy that much diamond, just have them spend the money and give them the damn diamond.

I think the whole purpose is to make components rare or difficult to find. Some GMs do indeed say: "No, this city isn't large enough to have a 25k diamond, they only have 10k and below".

I'm not really sure how gp translates into $, but certainly you would imagine that there will be some gp value of diamond that becomes rare and hard to find, no?

It's probably not hard to find a jewelry store that has $1M worth of diamonds. Probably a bit harder to find one that has a single $1M diamond.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Can you find those resources in a village? Extremely doubtful.

Can you find those resources in a metropolis? Yes.

Just decide what levels of civilization and associated economy are required for what levels of diamond, and don't worry about the tiny details. In the vast majority of situations if the PCs are looking for diamonds to cast a spell, if you say they can't find it in one location they're just going to look in a bigger location.

It just seems like a big waste of time to me. Paying the massive cost is price enough.


Dude, I'm right there with you, traveling around to find a spell component does not typically make a good adventure. I'm just pointing out what I believe the rules are saying.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think it's absolutely necessary to take context into account when making rule decisions. I like to make my decisions not in a vacuum. After all, all information is only useful in the context of humanity.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The only time I have had to use that trick is when I was playing a certain module that takes place on the moon and we could not simply teleport to the nearest city and pick up some diamond dust. I had some smaller diamonds for limited wish and was able to fabricate one into dust for a party member's restoration.

In 9/10 cases you might as well teleport and grab what you need, but sometimes you just can't.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
_Ozy_ wrote:
Dude, I'm right there with you, traveling around to find a spell component does not typically make a good adventure. I'm just pointing out what I believe the rules are saying.

Traveling around to find a spell component for something that is common doesn't make a good adventure.

On the other hand if there is a unique spell/ritual that isn't something you can even put in your spellbook - well then you can make an entire campaign about finding the stuff for it and have it work.

Spells from the core rulebook at the very least shouldn't be more difficult to cast than they already are (IMO) and if you are going to be a pain about it just ban the spell to begin with. Saying you don't have the diamond on you in the middle of the dungeon (because you didn't buy one) is different than not being able to find one at all, which just sucks if you have the spell and money to use it.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ckorik wrote:

Traveling around to find a spell component for something that is common doesn't make a good adventure.

On the other hand if there is a unique spell/ritual that isn't something you can even put in your spellbook - well then you can make an entire campaign about finding the stuff for it and have it work.

Spells from the core rulebook at the very least shouldn't be more difficult to cast than they already are (IMO) and if you are going to be a pain about it just ban the spell to begin with. Saying you don't have the diamond on you in the middle of the dungeon (because you didn't buy one) is different than not being able to find one at all, which just sucks if you have the spell and money to use it.

In high fantasy, finding spell components is a waste of time. Just get some sort of enlarged spell component pouch and be done with it.

In a low fantasy setting, an entire story arc could be focused around finding a certain component in time to cast a certain spell. GM would probably ban spell component pouches, making feats like eschew materials much more powerful.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I typically just say "spell components eat gold right out of your pocket", because it's far easier than forcing people to carry the diamond around or go to town to bring back the player who died at the start of the session and now has nothing to do for the rest of the session if we can't rez him. But if I wanted to make this specific, and interesting, and not totally arbitrarily sized/cut/color/clarity diamond decisions, I'd mark the three spells down as requiring a lesser/normal/greater Crystal Soul Diamond, costing the three amounts. Now you have some rare magic items produced from things on the plane of earth being enchanted in the positive energy plane, granting a solid reason for why they're so expensive and giving me a much more reasonable way to say "you need to be in the City of Brass if you want one of those, Pinkerton town isn't going to cut it no matter how long you hassle the locals.".

The Exchange

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Going to toss my two coppers in on this. The reason some spells have those hugely ridiculous components is so that those spells are not going to be cast every adventure or every time the characters mess up. Limited wish or wish should not be available to cast every adventure no matter how powerful the wizard is. This breaks the feel of the game. Having to go on a quest to get x component or to set up a supply of them is part of the game.

The Exchange

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I actually made a character backstory based on the cost of a spell.

Khale Darin was a rogue. His best friend/partner/love of his life, was a fighter Mara. The pair went into a low end dungeon seeking a bit of coin and experience. In that dungeon she was killed and Khale had to escape with only her sword, a bastard sword, and some of her hair. His reason for adventuring was to get the money together to have her resurrected.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
MichaelCullen wrote:
The fabricate spell can be used to combine multiple smaller diamonds into one larger one with the same overall value. Or turn a costly one into a bunch of dust.

Can't. A larger diamond isn't something that you can produce.

That spell don't glue together random item, it make a product. What is the craft skill used to produce a larger diamond? What is the DC?

MichaelCullen wrote:

The only time I have had to use that trick is when I was playing a certain module that takes place on the moon and we could not simply teleport to the nearest city and pick up some diamond dust. I had some smaller diamonds for limited wish and was able to fabricate one into dust for a party member's restoration.

In 9/10 cases you might as well teleport and grab what you need, but sometimes you just can't.

Making diamond dust from a diamond with fabricate? No problem, that is a product.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You don't need fabricate for diamond dust when you can just use a hammer.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
_Ozy_ wrote:
You don't need fabricate for diamond dust when you can just use a hammer.

Hammer's really aren't very good for diamond dust, unless you just want bits of diamonds flying in every direction and dents in your hammer/anvil.

For diamond dust, you are probably using the byproduct of the gem-crafting process for cutting the diamonds. It's unlikely that entire diamonds are being ground into dust, as the hardness of diamonds makes grinding them an expensive prospect (destroys tools quickly, in real life).

Diamonds can be melted down and poured into molds. The act of melting them down ruins any polishing or cuts, but you can create bigger diamonds from smaller diamonds (in real life, without magic). With magic like Fabricate, you could transform several cut gems directly into larger cut gems.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
You don't need fabricate for diamond dust when you can just use a hammer.

Hammer's really aren't very good for diamond dust, unless you just want bits of diamonds flying in every direction and dents in your hammer/anvil.

For diamond dust, you are probably using the byproduct of the gem-crafting process for cutting the diamonds. It's unlikely that entire diamonds are being ground into dust, as the hardness of diamonds makes grinding them an expensive prospect (destroys tools quickly, in real life).

Diamonds can be melted down and poured into molds. The act of melting them down ruins any polishing or cuts, but you can create bigger diamonds from smaller diamonds (in real life, without magic). With magic like Fabricate, you could transform several cut gems directly into larger cut gems.

Which would make it a Craft (Gemcutting) skill check, I would think, then.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
kinevon wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
You don't need fabricate for diamond dust when you can just use a hammer.

Hammer's really aren't very good for diamond dust, unless you just want bits of diamonds flying in every direction and dents in your hammer/anvil.

For diamond dust, you are probably using the byproduct of the gem-crafting process for cutting the diamonds. It's unlikely that entire diamonds are being ground into dust, as the hardness of diamonds makes grinding them an expensive prospect (destroys tools quickly, in real life).

Diamonds can be melted down and poured into molds. The act of melting them down ruins any polishing or cuts, but you can create bigger diamonds from smaller diamonds (in real life, without magic). With magic like Fabricate, you could transform several cut gems directly into larger cut gems.

Which would make it a Craft (Gemcutting) skill check, I would think, then.

Craft (Gemcutting), or the broader Craft (Jewelry), would work fine.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

It is really, really tough to melt diamonds. They tend to oxidize at temperature rather than melt, or turn into graphite in the absence of oxygen. You need extraordinary pressures, and I can't imagine actually 'pouring' them into anything resembling a mold. Do you have a link to this technique?

And no, while diamonds are hard and can 'scratch' metal easily, they aren't tough and are relatively easy to shatter with a hammer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XzJodPr3v0

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
You don't need fabricate for diamond dust when you can just use a hammer.

Hammer's really aren't very good for diamond dust, unless you just want bits of diamonds flying in every direction and dents in your hammer/anvil.

For diamond dust, you are probably using the byproduct of the gem-crafting process for cutting the diamonds. It's unlikely that entire diamonds are being ground into dust, as the hardness of diamonds makes grinding them an expensive prospect (destroys tools quickly, in real life).

Diamonds can be melted down and poured into molds. The act of melting them down ruins any polishing or cuts, but you can create bigger diamonds from smaller diamonds (in real life, without magic). With magic like Fabricate, you could transform several cut gems directly into larger cut gems.

Mohs scale of mineral hardness is about what can scratch what. It is not about resisting blows.

Iron has a hardness of 4-5, quartz of 7 on that scale. Quartz can scratch iron, but if you hit a piece of quartz with a iron hammer it shatter.

"Diamonds can be melted down and poured into molds." Source for that piece of information?
Diamonds can be made artificially, but you don't take existing diamond, melt them down and poor them in a mold. The process is way more complicated.

Scarab Sages

Diego Rossi wrote:

"Diamonds can be melted down and poured into molds." Source for that piece of information?

Diamonds can be made artificially, but you don't take existing diamond, melt them down and poor them in a mold. The process is way more complicated.

http://www.livescience.com/4303-scientists-melt-diamond.html

Wasn't talking about melting them with fire, if that's what you were thinking. It's an involved process. Linked article just melted diamonds into a puddle (which is an alternate shape), so a mold could work too.

Though with magic, would be much easier, since the spell ignores the technology needed.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Though melting diamonds into a bigger diamond is a classic Bond plot (Diamonds Are Forever (1971), I think).


zainale wrote:
resurrection is the spell that requires a diamond worth 5000 gp as a material cost. i always though it meant 5000gp worth of diamonds. so is it one diamond or many diamonds worth 5000 gp?

Yep... one 5,000 gp diamond. So if you buy one at a ten percent discount, your spell won't work.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Though melting diamonds into a bigger diamond is a classic Bond plot (Diamonds Are Forever (1971), I think).

I don't know I would call Diamonds are Forever classic Bond. That film makes me weep for shame.

Are we honestly saying that there is an alternative to ascribing a gp cost to diamond components. Do you want 5,000 gp diamond to be replaced with...

"one flawless, excellently cut, 2 carat marquise diamond"?

Or perhaps "diamonds, however many your DM thinks appropirate"?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
silverthorne wrote:
Going to toss my two coppers in on this. The reason some spells have those hugely ridiculous components is so that those spells are not going to be cast every adventure or every time the characters mess up. Limited wish or wish should not be available to cast every adventure no matter how powerful the wizard is. This breaks the feel of the game. Having to go on a quest to get x component or to set up a supply of them is part of the game.

That's a house rule and certainly a valid flavor. The cost from a design standpoint is more to make the player think before using the spell and thus have a hard choice to make. The costs go up in an even factor with the wealth by level chart.

You'll find the cost to raise dead someone about as rough on a party's bank when the spell is 'generally available' as Wish is when they get access - the difference is by the time they get Wish - raise dead is no longer such a drain.

Given the WBL charts neither spell should be a make or break moment for a party when they are the correct level to actually cast the spell themselves (and the GM's guide suggests that if the players spend money on consumables of any kind - including spells - that they get the money back in other ways) - both of these things in the *rules* show the design intent wasn't to make them *hard* to cast - but rather to add something akin to 'speedbumps' on a road, they slow you down, make you think, but don't stop you.

Again - that doesn't make your style of play wrong either - it's just having the spells generally available is really fine as well.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Worth is determined by whatever someone is willing to pay for it, unless however, the gods are determining gold price value and controlling inflation I guess, which is silly.

Get the money, buy the cheapest diamond you can find, hand the diamond to a friend, buy the diamond for the 10K. After the spell, have them give the money back as an investment for future res or whatever justification.

Diamonds are not even rare, in real life. They are a very common rock but some people have rights to pretty much every single one that gets dug up, create a false scarcity, and then determine price based on an incorrect supply amount.

GP value on components are a silly thing because of in game market manipulation. Have a city where sunflower seeds are banned and watch the black market value of it go through the roof.

However, now realizing that I shouldn't be posting at 5:36 am after drinking, again, that you have to make it work as a standard value or things like crafting fall apart. The economy of the gold piece is so important to the game that everything falls apart if the worth of anything changes.


The Sword wrote:

Are we honestly saying that there is an alternative to ascribing a gp cost to diamond components. Do you want 5,000 gp diamond to be replaced with...

"one flawless, excellently cut, 2 carat marquise diamond"?

Or perhaps "diamonds, however many your DM thinks appropirate"?

No, we are not, and, if you read the earlier posts again, you might come away with a more reasonable impression.

If intended, perhaps, "a diamond worth 5,000 gp" instead.

That's simple (add the word 'a') and instantly clears up any confusion.

Of course, as I noted, adding that word does add to the character count against page space (specifically the letter 'a' itself, and the space between that and the word 'diamond') which might be a totally legitimate reason for cutting it.

But, given English as a language, as this is currently printed, the English can be read in either direction.


Diego Rossi wrote:
MichaelCullen wrote:
The fabricate spell can be used to combine multiple smaller diamonds into one larger one with the same overall value. Or turn a costly one into a bunch of dust.

Can't. A larger diamond isn't something that you can produce.

That spell don't glue together random item, it make a product. What is the craft skill used to produce a larger diamond? What is the DC?

A cut larger diamond could certainly be a product. And it is the same material as smaller diamonds. I see no reason why fabricate would not work.

DC 20 would seem appropriate as this is the DC for a "superior" product. A 5,000 gp diamond would probably be considered a superior product.

1 to 50 of 120 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / that one spell that requires a diamond worth 5000 gp? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.