In the case of the combat maneuver feat I don't think it's so bad. I typically combine all Improved/Greater combat maneuver feats so having this feat and one of those feats means you can pay to not provoke in all combat maneuvers but with the maneuver you have the Improved feat for you get a +4 bonus that turns into a +6 bonus and a reroll. I think that keeps the feat relevant although I think they would have been as bad as its still three feats to gain +6 in a maneuver, disregarding the natural +5 possible stamina bonus. Currently there isn't that much room to improve CMB to compete with drastically scaling monster CMD so I think it's appropriate. Also keep in mind that classes other than fighter are feat taxed to do this aside from games where these are fighter feat exclusives, so for the most part this makes the fighter obsolete combat feats with one feat which I think fighters should be able to do because he's THE feat guy.
Although I have to say, these are the low cost effects of the product. I would like to see the reaction to the 10 stamina cost feats. This includes;
Reaping Strike: Spend 10 stamina to maximize spell all your weapon damage for a round.
Steel Torrent: Spend 10 stamina to move twice your speed and gain an attack/damage bonus for each 10 feet you moved. (since this is a move action it's compatible with Vital Strike/Cleave.)
Strike from the Spirit: Spend 10 stamina to gain bonus to attack and damage equal to your wisdom score. Lasts for 1-12 rounds depending on other things.
Dizzying Spin: Spend 10 stamina to make bull rush targets stunned for one round and then staggered for 1-12 rounds depending on other things.
Shade's Culling: Spend 10 stamina to have attacks deal 1-12d6 bonus damage to targets suffering from any of a list of status effects.
Duelist Gambit: Spend 10 stamina to give attacks against you get +4 to attack and damage in order to make AoOs in response to attacks against you. You can spend 2 stamina to get another AoO for this purpose. You get a +1-12 bonus to attack and damage depending on other things.
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I'm late to the party, so some of my responses are going to be already dealt with. I don't care, I'm bored and I want to talk.
If at any point you fail a check by 5 or more, you are going to fall, and that's very likely to happen sooner or later because you can't take ten while climbing
*winces at the complete thread derailment that they're about to commit to* I agree with you, except that you totally can take 10 while climbing assuming you're not being harried or in a storm or something.
Who cares whether or not the game completely changes if you have a high level caster or not? If you don't have one, your game takes one trajectory. If you have them, it takes another. This is part of the brilliance of RPGs - all sorts of options are possible depending on what the PCs are, what they have, what they want to do. Traveller ends up being a pretty different game depending on whether or not the PCs have a starship - so the GM prepares the game accordingly - like a GM does in PF and D&D-based games depending on what the players bring to the table.
Who cares? Um...all the people who are discussing this, I'd say.
The issue isn't that the GM will have to plan accordingly. This issue is that anything that would be challenging for a high level caster will be suicidal for non-casters. Or, alternatively, complete metagaming crap (e.g. the random higher level mage taking all your stuff and stealing your spellbook).
A 20th level wizard can 1-shot a demon lord, a 20th level fighter gets annihilated.
But the thing is PLAYERS don't like to feel like a tag a long.
This, this, this, this, this. If every problem is solved by "wizard gates in a pit fiend, casts time stop, and drops 1000 explosive runes on it" the fighter and the monk are going to get bored.
To be fair, Hercules and Cu are demigods, not mundane folk.
To be fair, a 15th level fighter shouldn't be "mundane folk."
This... everyone who posts a thread like this either... 1. Thinks they've come on a new approach. (they haven't), 2.Magnifies a problem far beyond it's actual scope, or 3. Is putting up troll bait.
Fighters were created as the "supernormal weapons master". No fancy powers but the ultimate masters of weapons and combat styles. If you MUST have magic with your martial, there ARE a lot of alternatives, ranging from full martials such as the Ranger and Paladin, to the arcane weapon slingers known as the Eldritch Knights or Magi. Or you can stay Fighter and use variant multi-classing from Pathfinder Unchained!.
The system already allows you to tailor just how much magic there is to your fighter. I can't see what problem you can bring up that can't be addressed by one or more of these approaches.
The problem isn't that the martials don't get magic; the problem is that magic makes the martials superfluous. One group of classes can do some things really well, the other can do everything just as well or better.
You use single boss monsters?
Why???
Because it happens all the time in modules and APs?
Off topic. That's one thing that's kinda bugged me, any time there's a party v. single boss in a published work, it needs serious modding to make it an actual challenge.
Exclusivity is the core of every caster class...having access to magic others don't have. But everyone has access to all skills, and all feats. That's huge discrimination right there. You want feats and skills to be powerful, you have to restrict them, not open them up.
Or make them exclusive by calling them something other then feats (like, oh, Rage Powers).
Until you get past the huge discrepancy in the valuation of feats and skills vs spellcasting, there will always be disparity.
Yeah, that's about the size and shape of it.
So you prefer a scenario where the martial moves and gets off one attack... and then the monster opens up with a Full Attack on him?
Why are the players being dumb and moving to engage the monsters?
So you prefer a scenario where the martial moves and gets off one attack... and then the monster opens up with a Full Attack on him?Why are the players being dumb and moving to engage the monsters?
Yeah, opponents should stare at each other waiting for one to make the first move (and take a full attack in the face for nothing) forever
Who cares whether or not the game completely changes if you have a high level caster or not? If you don't have one, your game takes one trajectory. If you have them, it takes another. This is part of the brilliance of RPGs - all sorts of options are possible depending on what the PCs are, what they have, what they want to do. Traveller ends up being a pretty different game depending on whether or not the PCs have a starship - so the GM prepares the game accordingly - like a GM does in PF and D&D-based games depending on what the players bring to the table.
Actually, the problem is not that having a caster you take another trajectory : it's that not having one closes most trajectories you could have taken.
When you don't have magic (or high level spells), you have to be "mundane" in the ways you handle situations. You will use skills, you will use horses and boats if not walk, ...
If you have access to magic, every situations can be handled several ways, without forbidding the mundane ones.
Who cares? Um...all the people who are discussing this, I'd say.
The issue isn't that the GM will have to plan accordingly. This issue is that anything that would be challenging for a high level caster will be suicidal for non-casters. Or, alternatively, complete metagaming crap (e.g. the random higher level mage taking all your stuff and stealing your spellbook).
A 20th level wizard can 1-shot a demon lord, a 20th level fighter gets annihilated.
It's even worse : without magic, the 20th level fighter doesn't even get close to the demon lord. The 20th level fighter will not even be sure to even know that a demon lord is the guy to look after.
To be fair, Hercules and Cu are demigods, not mundane folk.To be fair, a 15th level fighter shouldn't be "mundane folk."...
To be fair, Pathfinder (and DnD before Pathfinder) always handled Fighters and rogues like the very mundane classes.
Paizo and WoTC made everything they could to maintain the illusion that skills were limited to "mundane" abilities, even when you are the ultimate master of that skill.
This is so true.Feats which generate more attacks and generate more damage are the ones martials need the least.
Pretty much ALL the martial classes can deal respectable raw damage. It's pretty much all the other options where they start lacking.
For skills - the only way to make skills strong is to put restrictions on learning them, and/or having MORE of them, not less.
Actually, you can make skills strong by expanding what can be done with them. A lot of Rogue talents should be default options that you can do with a high skill check. Want to move a full speed while on a ledge, succeed the balance check by 5 or more. Want to kip up, DC15 acrobatics check or against their CMD+5 if you want to not provoke an AoO.
Cross-class severe penalties make people howl, but they make classes with a huge skill list valuable intrinsically. Being totally unable to spend skill points outside your class list would concentrate characters into their specialty skills and stop a lot of toe-stepping. Who cares if the mage gets 12 skill points if he has to spend it on knowledge and craft skills? That's what a mage is SUPPOSED to be good at.
I can't agree with this. It pretty much eliminates character concepts and options for a terrible reason, and forces characters to be cookie cutter. Opening up skills was the absolute best change Pathfinder made. Want to play a fighter with some knowledge skills, like say Roy from OotS, your barred from that too.
Exclusivity is the core of every caster class...having access to magic others don't have. But everyone has access to all skills, and all feats. That's huge discrimination right there. You want feats and skills to be powerful, you have to restrict them, not open them up.
Or make them exclusive by calling them something other then feats (like, oh, Rage Powers).Until you get past the huge discrepancy in the valuation of feats and skills vs spellcasting, there will always be disparity.
==Aelryinth
I don't see mages taking power attack. There are a ton of feats casters have access to that they will never take. Not to mention if you design them to scale, you can make it so they don't scale as well for casters. Of course this can hurt 3/4 BAB classes.
Yeah, opponents should stare at each other waiting for one to make the first move (and take a full attack in the face for nothing) foreverSo you prefer a scenario where the martial moves and gets off one attack... and then the monster opens up with a Full Attack on him?Why are the players being dumb and moving to engage the monsters?
Or you design a character so that he forces opponents stronger than him to come to him. Have a ranged weapon. Have reach. Have spring Attack. Have Lunge. There are tons of ways to design your character to force your opponent to come to you. And if they don't, now you are actually giving your casters the ability to buff/debuff.
Or you design a character so that he forces opponents stronger than him to come to him. Have a ranged weapon. Have reach. Have spring Attack. Have Lunge. There are tons of ways to design your character to force your opponent to come to you. And if they don't, now you are actually giving your casters the ability to buff/debuff.Yeah, opponents should stare at each other waiting for one to make the first move (and take a full attack in the face for nothing) foreverSo you prefer a scenario where the martial moves and gets off one attack... and then the monster opens up with a Full Attack on him?Why are the players being dumb and moving to engage the monsters?
A fellow player in our group has recently shown me the value of reach weapons...
Sure, you might not be doing 2D6+ with a crit of 17+, but the slightly reduced damage is totally worth it.
Throw armor spikes on there and you are good to go.
This is so true.Feats which generate more attacks and generate more damage are the ones martials need the least.
Pretty much ALL the martial classes can deal respectable raw damage. It's pretty much all the other options where they start lacking.
For skills - the only way to make skills strong is to put restrictions on learning them, and/or having MORE of them, not less.Actually, you can make skills strong by expanding what can be done with them. A lot of Rogue talents should be default options that you can do with a high skill check. Want to move a full speed while on a ledge, succeed the balance check by 5 or more. Want to kip up, DC15 acrobatics check or against their CMD+5 if you want to not provoke an AoO.
Cross-class severe penalties make people howl, but they make classes with a huge skill list valuable intrinsically. Being totally unable to spend skill points outside your class list would concentrate characters into their specialty skills and stop a lot of toe-stepping. Who cares if the mage gets 12 skill points if he has to spend it on knowledge and craft skills? That's what a mage is SUPPOSED to be good at.I can't agree with this. It pretty much eliminates character concepts and options for a terrible reason, and forces characters to be cookie cutter. Opening up skills was the absolute best change Pathfinder made. Want to play a fighter with some knowledge skills, like say Roy from OotS, your barred from that too.
I...
Exclusivity is the core of every caster class...having access to magic others don't have. But everyone has access to all skills, and all feats. That's huge discrimination right there. You want feats and skills to be powerful, you have to restrict them, not open them up.
Or make them exclusive by calling them something other then feats (like, oh, Rage Powers).Until you get past the huge discrepancy in the valuation of feats and skills vs spellcasting, there will always be disparity.
==Aelryinth
I respectfully disagree on a couple of points here.
Restricting skills and penalizing cross-class doesn't force cookie cutter. It forces you to value the skills of other classes, and if you want them, you have to multiclass and take your lumps.
I.e. if you want this spell, you must be a wizard, nobody complains.
If you want to stealth effectively, you must be a ranger or rogue. EVERYONE HOWLS.
If you want to use this feat, you must be a Fighter or Barbarian. SACRILEGE!!!
Not treated equally.
Without skill restrictions, then expanding what skills do just gives casters even more stuff they can do without relying on other classes, esp high Int types who can cherry pick stuff.
And magi/wizards/sorcs/bards who are build polymorphing/combat builds, take Power Attack All The Time. Because they can. It's easy.
A fighter who wants True Strike? Has to abandon his class and take a level in another class.
Disparity.
==============================
Expertise doesn't need to be baked into the core system. Expertise needs to stand alone as a feat that means COMBAT EXPERT. That's not what it does now.
Defensive Fighting is in the system as a lesser version of Expertise. Unfortunately, Offensive Fighting is not core as a lesser version of Power attack, the opposite.
Expertise should be about being skilled in combat. What if expertise added to your Mobility bonus automatically? If it upped your CMD automatically, and gave you the Improved Manuver for 1 COmbat of your choice every time it increased? What if the bonus applied to Int checks on military type skills? What if it improved your Improved Initiative when wielding weapons? WHat if it applied to crafting checks when making arms and armor?
Those are the marks of a feat that show EXPERTISE. That's what the feat should do. It does not need to be folded into the core, Offensive Fighting needs to be put there. Expertise needs to be expanded so that an Intelligent fighter gets an AWESOME FEAT.
==Aelryinth
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as a follow up, I don't have a problem with casters who are bad at stealth, or perception, and MUST USE MAGIC to replicate what other people do with pure skill. The only way around their weakness is to take mundane classes and take mundane skills, or, horrors, multiclass into a prestige class that allows you to combine such things.
All at cost of caster levels.
I don't have a problem with that at all. Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels is an optimization command. If you want to keep those caster levels, then you don't get the shinies for other classes. Period. Suck it up and deal with it.
==Aelryinth
I wouldn't want to play in a game that restricts skills the way you describe.
But restricting spells is just fine.
Disparity.
==Aelryinth
But casters have magic spells to make up for the lack of those skills Caineach. So a wizard doesn't have access to Stealth? They can eventually learn Invisibility right?
Some Video game systems resolve this by giving different classes different point buys per skill. So caster classes can get Knowledge type skills on a one for one basis but have to spend two points per rank for Dex type skills and three points per rank for Str type skills for example.
meh adnd had this, it was weird being the only guy who could pickpocket...
But casters have magic spells to make up for the lack of those skills Caineach. So a wizard doesn't have access to Stealth? They can eventually learn Invisibility right?
It forces every member of every class to be a clone. Skills are the most defining aspect of a character. Eliminating diversity eliminates the biggest option for making them distinct.
It forces every member of every class to be a clone. Skills are the most defining aspect of a character. Eliminating diversity eliminates the biggest option for making them distinct.But casters have magic spells to make up for the lack of those skills Caineach. So a wizard doesn't have access to Stealth? They can eventually learn Invisibility right?
i honestly rarely use skills other than a select few on every character, so i'm still carbon copying skills across classes. while they can be defining, they aren't the most defining i feel.
I can see that point, but I can only see the reverse point that skill characters are good at skills, fighty classes are good at fighting, magic classes are good at everything being not ideal.
Skill unlocks being available to all skill characters for free at a fast progression with rogues getting the fastest progression may be a good fix.
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meh adnd had this, it was weird being the only guy who could pickpocket...
Yeah, and it was PERCENTAGE based, not an opposed roll I think...
odd.In 3.x cross class cost double, right?
I think the way Pathfinder does skills is pretty good, they aren't defining features of the class.
A rogue wanting to be stealthy can be stealthy all day and still have the ability to attack.
A wizard can invest skill points and feats, just like the rogue, but probably won't have as high a DEX... Sure, he can cast a spell to be better, but that's a limited resource.
I think a really easy way of dealing with mundane vs caster disparity is actually not having a 15 minute adventuring day.
The mechanics work just fine in my group, there is always an even balance of classes (or even a preference for non-casters).
Maybe, just maybe, the 'fix' is to run the game a little differently.
I mean, a wizard can run out of spells. Fighters don't run out of fight.
meh adnd had this, it was weird being the only guy who could pickpocket...Yeah, and it was PERCENTAGE based, not an opposed roll I think...
odd.In 3.x cross class cost double, right?
I think the way Pathfinder does skills is pretty good, they aren't defining features of the class.
A rogue wanting to be stealthy can be stealthy all day and still have the ability to attack.
A wizard can invest skill points and feats, just like the rogue, but probably won't have as high a DEX... Sure, he can cast a spell to be better, but that's a limited resource.
I think a really easy way of dealing with mundane vs caster disparity is actually not having a 15 minute adventuring day.
The mechanics work just fine in my group, there is always an even balance of classes (or even a preference for non-casters).
Maybe, just maybe, the 'fix' is to run the game a little differently.
I mean, a wizard can run out of spells. Fighters don't run out of fight.
I've mentioned this before, but a well organized party is hard to actually stop doing the 15 minute work days.
you simply stop to rest LONG before your spells run out, if the enemy comes knocking you still have spells. if it's the BBEG then you can nova.
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I mean, a wizard can run out of spells. Fighters don't run out of fight.
Oh, they run out of fight. It's called HP's and it closely follows the casters running out of spells.
I can see Aelryinth's point. When Unchained came out I found that dealing with half bonuses made things weird so I wanted to have classes get full ranks per level but eliminate INT as a means to gain more skill points. The response was criticism that this rips skill points from the Wizard/Witch/Magus, all of which have access to spells that obsolete skills. There is quite a bit of disparity ingrained in the game due to how we think about skills, spells, martial ability and reality. If it were equal, each class would have access to feats spells and skills and class features would just give a class more of one. I don't think we need to go that far because other games have covered that ground without needing to rewrite an entire system but I think its an argument in favor of giving martials more exclusive access to combat abilities, 'skillful' classes more exclusive access to skill boosts and extraordinary skill abilities.
He can cast the spell to be impossibly better then the rogue when it matters. That's really all that is important.
Limited resources are only an issue if they run out. Given long durations, the ability to extend those durations, and the ability to keep the benefits even when fighting or casting (imp invis), why would a mage ever learn to stealth when +20 is at his fingertips whenever he wants it? Add in levitate, ethereality, gaseous form, flight, silence, dim door, blink, teleport, illusions, polymorph, ESP, Wizard Eye...WHY should he be good at stealth? He can do everything he needs to do stealthwise simply by choosing the appropriate magic. THAT is what a wizard is good at.
And no, skills are not the defining traits of a character. Class abilities are. The spells a caster uses define them far more then the skills they have. Skills are a total afterthought. You could take non-Spellcraft skills completely away from a wizard and probably not a lot of people would notice the difference in play. Oh, the Lack of Knowledge skills might pop up now and then, but otherwise...eh! Summon a creature with the appropriate Knowledge.
And if you have that power where you don't NEED something, you totally shouldn't just get it for nothing.
A caster doesn't NEED a lot of skills...he has magic. He needs skills which support his magic. Skills his magic subs for should be a total afterthought on his part.
if he wants to be good at stealth, let him give up caster levels and multiclass into Rogue/Expert, and then pick up the mage/rogue prestige class. He won't be cookie cutter, he'll definitely have his stealth, and he doesn't get his cake and eat it, too.
Until the valuation of skills=feats=spells is set to equal, there's going to be disparity. And the disparity is all on the caster side, who have access to ALL the goodies.
==Aelryinth
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meh adnd had this, it was weird being the only guy who could pickpocket...Yeah, and it was PERCENTAGE based, not an opposed roll I think...
odd.In 3.x cross class cost double, right?
I think the way Pathfinder does skills is pretty good, they aren't defining features of the class.
A rogue wanting to be stealthy can be stealthy all day and still have the ability to attack.
A wizard can invest skill points and feats, just like the rogue, but probably won't have as high a DEX... Sure, he can cast a spell to be better, but that's a limited resource.
I think a really easy way of dealing with mundane vs caster disparity is actually not having a 15 minute adventuring day.
The mechanics work just fine in my group, there is always an even balance of classes (or even a preference for non-casters).
Maybe, just maybe, the 'fix' is to run the game a little differently.
I mean, a wizard can run out of spells. Fighters don't run out of fight.
I've mentioned this before, but a well organized party is hard to actually stop doing the 15 minute work days.
you simply stop to rest LONG before your spells run out, if the enemy comes knocking you still have spells. if it's the BBEG then you can nova.
See, I just don't GET that... I've had a good group and good GMs... if tried to just quit after the first encounter in a day... wow...
We just never do. I guess we LIKE adventuring. *shrugs* I dunno, I guess it would pretty contrived if monsters kept showing up after the party teleported away.
Camping IN a dungeon should seem pretty stupid though, I mean, that's where the monsters live.
But yeah, with Teleport, all the GM can do is... have level appropriate casters of his own scry and follow them I suppose. Ambush them while they sleep.
Have BBEG send assassins to infiltrate their favorite town/hiding spot...
Poison the ale ahead of time...
Replace the usual NPCs the party deals with with his own operatives...
Make life a living hell, and also have the animosity of the BBEG spill over onto innocent victims, because the PCs are taking WAY too long to deal with the BBEG.
So yeah, the party can adventure 15 minutes a day, but like any light, part time job, they won't accomplish much.
:D
my current sorcerer has a crossbow... so first encounter won't likely even dent him. no point in casting spells when it wouldn't be to benefit.
my current sorcerer has a crossbow... so first encounter won't likely even dent him. no point in casting spells when it wouldn't be to benefit.
This.
The caster has the choice to manage his spells, or do something else. He simply has far more options to pick from.
That can include skill use, if its appropriate.
If there's no need to use magic, he doesn't have to use magic.
If he wants to use magic, he can totally turn encounters on their heads and take the glory away from people who normally perform a task.
A flying, invisible, gaseous form wizard can so totally do the scouting thing better then any rogue. He can do it from a safe distance with Wizard Eye.
Polymorphed into the appropriate hugely strong form, with a couple buffs on him, he can totally do the appropriate tanker/fighter role if he wants to.
With the right spell selection, he can control the battlefield, shut down the enemy, and make everyone else look good while being in the background.
With the right feats, he can burn the enemy out of existence or instantly take them out of the combat with weak-save exploiting save or sucks.
In a go-go-go adventuring scenario, he can simply burn through his slots to beat the timetable and then everyone gets out of there.
If he MUST dribble out his spells over a long day and have reserves, he'll start crafting wands and scrolls so he does have those reserves, and put immense pressure on the DM to justify why the group can't get to a point of safety in between excursions, i.e. why can't he set the pace, instead of the DM?
Those are all optional play styles for casters.
Martials and skill guys have 1 option - play til HP get low, then get out of there.
Any hp-generating resources they have are matched with equal sustain capability from the magical side. Casters get scrolls and wands, too, you know.
Strangely enough, that point generally comes before or as the caster is getting low on spells. Martials pressing forwards with no healing magic are asking to get ganked. You want your martials to be at full health after pulling back, not to be at half-strength and waiting for the casters to regain spells in the morning, Just In Case they must fight again.
That's simply smart party management.
==Aelryinth
So what Bandw2 and Aelryinth are saying is that short adventure days (like long adventure days) are a playstyle choice.
As a GM I would respect that, but in no universe would the BBEG just let them run and leave them alone.
Any badguy worth his weight in gold would react to the initial invasion to his dungeon/fortress, if he was smart that is.
So you go ahead and have your shorter adventuring days... I'm gonna keep powering through and make sure that BBEG isn't gonna kill me in my sleep. :D
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The real solution, I think, would be to nerf the casters. I would think nobody playing rocket tag would be preferable to everybody playing rocket tag.
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Stuff I agree with
It's always amusing to me that for all the rhetoric of "Need Initiative! Need Initiative!" going first is almost always awful for Martials unless they win it just to say "I delay until the enemy moves up and/or I get my rounds per level buffs." Or, you know, have Pounce or are dedicated archers.
So what Bandw2 and Aelryinth are saying is that short adventure days (like long adventure days) are a playstyle choice.
As a GM I would respect that, but in no universe would the BBEG just let them run and leave them alone.
Any badguy worth his weight in gold would react to the initial invasion to his dungeon/fortress, if he was smart that is.
So you go ahead and have your shorter adventuring days... I'm gonna keep powering through and make sure that BBEG isn't gonna kill me in my sleep. :D
Well, part of the problem of the BBEG is setting up defenses to force you to run away, so he CAN respond to you.
And having the resources to rebuild those defenses when you plow through half of them and retreat.
It's the job of the PC's to smash through those defenses so they don't have to come back again...but also to get the hell out of there if there's no way they can continue with a reasonable chance of success.
It all depends on the GM. If he doesn't want you to reach the BBEG in the first run, it's not going to happen. If he doesn't adapt to your second run, that's on him.
But 'powering on' when your casters are low on spells is asking for a TPK. That's just how it is if your GM isn't lenient.
==Aelryinth
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Stuff I agree withIt's always amusing to me that for all the rhetoric of "Need Initiative! Need Initiative!" going first is almost always awful for Martials unless they win it just to say "I delay until the enemy moves up and/or I get my rounds per level buffs." Or, you know, have Pounce or are dedicated archers.
This is correct. From a math standpoint, moving up on the enemies so you can eat their full attack, is pretty stupid compared to forcing them to move up and eat yours.
Moving before the casters can buff you is also dumb. "Hey, I get an extra attack...after I moved, and I can move even faster NEXT round, and I didn't get my +1 bonus to hit, either! I'm so glad I beat McWizard on initiative! I'm L33T!"
The only person you want to go before is the CASTER on the other team. That's usually best done with ranged attacks anyways.
==Aelryinth
We've gone to a dragon's lair to slay him, faced his minions and burned a LOT of resources... teleported away...
Just to have him come after us.
It sucked.
He leveled our town and kidnapped my characters parents.
All because we didn't finish the job. The Wizard had argued that resting up was the best idea, so he could have his best spells available for the fight against the dragon, we all agreed with him and left.
*shrugs*
Had to choose between my characters parents and the rest of the town.
Like you said, really depends on how the GM runs things.
Fun game, but really felt like we were characters in a Game of Thrones episode...
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Sounds like The Hobbit.
You're not looking at it from the Dragon's Perspective. Everything worked PERFECTLY there. His minions and traps used up so many of your resources that you were forced to retreat rather then face a fully prepared dragon.
Now the fully prepared dragon went after YOU, and your characters weren't prepped in return.
Then, the dragon is depleted, but now has hostages to mitigate the fact he doesn't have his full defenses again.
Smart dragon. Played perfectly. The situation would be the same if, for example, you'd stolen the dragon's eggs.
And like you said, so much more fun then just marching in and killing an idiot dragon...or potentially being TPK'd.
==Aelryinth
meh adnd had this, it was weird being the only guy who could pickpocket...Yeah, and it was PERCENTAGE based, not an opposed roll I think...
odd.In 3.x cross class cost double, right?
I think the way Pathfinder does skills is pretty good, they aren't defining features of the class.
A rogue wanting to be stealthy can be stealthy all day and still have the ability to attack.
A wizard can invest skill points and feats, just like the rogue, but probably won't have as high a DEX... Sure, he can cast a spell to be better, but that's a limited resource.
I think a really easy way of dealing with mundane vs caster disparity is actually not having a 15 minute adventuring day.
The mechanics work just fine in my group, there is always an even balance of classes (or even a preference for non-casters).
Maybe, just maybe, the 'fix' is to run the game a little differently.
I mean, a wizard can run out of spells. Fighters don't run out of fight.
I've mentioned this before, but a well organized party is hard to actually stop doing the 15 minute work days.
you simply stop to rest LONG before your spells run out, if the enemy comes knocking you still have spells. if it's the BBEG then you can nova.
See, I just don't GET that... I've had a good group and good GMs... if tried to just quit after the first encounter in a day... wow...
We just never do. I guess we LIKE adventuring. *shrugs* I dunno, I guess it would pretty contrived if monsters kept showing up after the party teleported away.
Camping IN a dungeon should seem pretty stupid though, I mean, that's where the monsters live.
But yeah, with Teleport, all the GM can do is... have level appropriate casters of his own scry and follow them I suppose. Ambush them while they sleep.
Have BBEG send assassins to infiltrate their favorite town/hiding spot...
Poison the ale ahead of time...
Replace the usual NPCs the party deals with with his...
And I've been in Epic running battles against waves and traps that were basically one long battle and the only fight that day. It's so totally possible to get done fighting one long rolling encounter and get the hell out of there, espec if there's casters among the enemy.
==Aelryinth
Sounds like The Hobbit.
You're not looking at it from the Dragon's Perspective. Everything worked PERFECTLY there. His minions and traps used up so many of your resources that you were forced to retreat rather then face a fully prepared dragon.
Now the fully prepared dragon went after YOU, and your characters weren't prepped in return.
Then, the dragon is depleted, but now has hostages to mitigate the fact he doesn't have his full defenses again.
Smart dragon. Played perfectly. The situation would be the same if, for example, you'd stolen the dragon's eggs.
And like you said, so much more fun then just marching in and killing an idiot dragon...or potentially being TPK'd.
==Aelryinth
Interestingly enough, that is exactly what we did. Killed her and took her eggs. Quite a tidy profit on that one.
Lost my characters parents though. :(
I mean, the wizard still had several level 3-6 spells, and we were level 12 at the time. He was just 'below half', so we left.
I'm convinced we could have taken the dragon without a TPK. *shrugs* We'll never know.
Shifted playstyles after that. Haven't lost a relative since. ;)
We've gone to a dragon's lair to slay him, faced his minions and burned a LOT of resources... teleported away...
Just to have him come after us.
It sucked.
He leveled our town and kidnapped my characters parents.
All because we didn't finish the job. The Wizard had argued that resting up was the best idea, so he could have his best spells available for the fight against the dragon, we all agreed with him and left.
*shrugs*
Had to choose between my characters parents and the rest of the town.
Like you said, really depends on how the GM runs things.
Fun game, but really felt like we were characters in a Game of Thrones episode...
If your GM runs dragons correctly then yes, that was the smartest course of action since melee martials tend to be damn near useless vs them...
If your GM runs dragons correctly then yes, that was the smartest course of action since melee martials tend to be damn near useless vs them...We've gone to a dragon's lair to slay him, faced his minions and burned a LOT of resources... teleported away...
Just to have him come after us.
It sucked.
He leveled our town and kidnapped my characters parents.
All because we didn't finish the job. The Wizard had argued that resting up was the best idea, so he could have his best spells available for the fight against the dragon, we all agreed with him and left.
*shrugs*
Had to choose between my characters parents and the rest of the town.
Like you said, really depends on how the GM runs things.
Fun game, but really felt like we were characters in a Game of Thrones episode...
Actually it was the melee characters that took her out... Fly is awonderful spell, especially when given to the deadly dudes in fullplate. I don't recall the higher level spells used in the fight, that little gem was the one that ended things.
Chop chop chop... dragon steak and eggs.
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If your GM runs dragons correctly then yes, that was the smartest course of action since melee martials tend to be damn near useless vs them...We've gone to a dragon's lair to slay him, faced his minions and burned a LOT of resources... teleported away...
Just to have him come after us.
It sucked.
He leveled our town and kidnapped my characters parents.
All because we didn't finish the job. The Wizard had argued that resting up was the best idea, so he could have his best spells available for the fight against the dragon, we all agreed with him and left.
*shrugs*
Had to choose between my characters parents and the rest of the town.
Like you said, really depends on how the GM runs things.
Fun game, but really felt like we were characters in a Game of Thrones episode...
Actually it was the melee characters that took her out... Fly is awonderful spell, especially when given to the deadly dudes in fullplate. I don't recall the higher level spells used in the fight, that little gem was the one that ended things.
Chop chop chop... dragon steak and eggs.
Dragons can cast spells to... like dispel .. oh and your fly speed is paltry vs dragons. A PROPERLY RUN dragon can literay do circles around you and blast you with spells or breath weapons if it so chose. A smart dragon NEVER has to go into melee without having something stopping it from flying (FAILED SAVE VS Reverse Gravity, wall spells, stone shape, ect.)
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I have found most GMs very much Underutilized the dragons abilities and attributes. If a Dragon was played at its intelligence and full capability, melee martials are near useless between rediculous flight speeds, sspells, breath weapons, and fly by attack they are rediculously hard to catch.
I have found most GMs very much Underutilized the dragons abilities and attributes. If a Dragon was played at its intelligence and full capability, melee martials are near useless between rediculous flight speeds, sspells, breath weapons, and fly by attack they are rediculously hard to catch.
I think the issue is that most dragons don't tend to be scared of puny mortals, including the party. That is until about 6 second after standing still next to them. By then it's usually far too late. Of course if the dragon has actually heard of the party and knows to take s!!# seriously right from the start then it changes the whole dynamic completely.
Huge flight speed doesn't mean anything if you aren't out of doors with unlimited space to use it in. And you can't breathe with a fly-by attack, and readied actions can still hit you.
So, eh. They probably fought him in his lair, and there was no place it could get away from them.
==Aelryinth
I have found most GMs very much Underutilized the dragons abilities and attributes. If a Dragon was played at its intelligence and full capability, melee martials are near useless between rediculous flight speeds, sspells, breath weapons, and fly by attack they are rediculously hard to catch.
There was more to the fight than just the fighters, they just did the most damage.
I don't recall the spells used, but there was a net involved... tangled wings...
Then blood. Lots of blood.
Anybody remember Avasculate? Great spell...
So what Bandw2 and Aelryinth are saying is that short adventure days (like long adventure days) are a playstyle choice.
As a GM I would respect that, but in no universe would the BBEG just let them run and leave them alone.
Any badguy worth his weight in gold would react to the initial invasion to his dungeon/fortress, if he was smart that is.
So you go ahead and have your shorter adventuring days... I'm gonna keep powering through and make sure that BBEG isn't gonna kill me in my sleep. :D
you apparently haven't been listening, i sleep expecting him to come, then nova on him, posting watched among the martials and the like, then if he doesn't i get my new spells if he does i'm still combat ready. rings of sustance are great for this, everyone only needs 2 hours of sleep and then i just need it to be the next day.
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This seems like a tangent, but I'll bite.
I still find it believable when a dragon (or other intelligent foe) doesn't fight at its highest optimized potential.
Because that would mean acknowledging that the worms standing before you are your equals and you have to bring everything you can at them. It means you're afraid of them.
Hit-and-run tactics are for the inferior force that can't just squash its enemies. What will the other dragons say? It's like running for cover and shooting at a rat with your crossbow instead of just kicking it away.
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Huge flight speed doesn't mean anything if you aren't out of doors with unlimited space to use it in. And you can't breathe with a fly-by attack, and readied actions can still hit you.
So, eh. They probably fought him in his lair, and there was no place it could get away from them.
==Aelryinth
He said the dragon came after them.
AlsO i notice a lot.of GMs tend to forget that dragons are VERY capable mages. I remember one dungeon crawl i did with a buddy of mine where i learned the deadliness of dragons. Played up against an ancient black dragon. Between invisibility, mage armor, blur, dispel magic, stupid huge fly speed (se were in a huge chasm where he could take advantage of his speed), his breath weapon, and his stealth skill it got scary. How a gigantic dragon is stealthy is beyond me. Oh amd.his AC was stupid high.
Huge flight speed doesn't mean anything if you aren't out of doors with unlimited space to use it in.Why would a dragon fight anywhere else?
Better question, why the hell are we stuffing Dragons into Dungeons >_<
And you can't breathe with a fly-by attack, and readied actions can still hit you.Re-read Fly-By-Attack. The name implies Spring Attack In the Air, but the feat allows any standard action [could even be a Spell, might not even be an attack spell.]
Yeah... Dragons in tightly enclosed lairs which can be accessed from ground level is the dumbest thing ever.So, eh. They probably fought him in his lair, and there was no place it could get away from them.
==Aelryinth
Blue dragon mama, hearing her lairs guardian being killed, rushes back to her lair (hundreds of feet up a cliff face-scaled by our sneaky rogue, ropes lowered down).
Said lair was big enough to fly in, and manuever, but small enough to 'trap' her in an arena style fight.
She was defending her eggs. I had my revenge.