APs and Alignments: A Lawful AP?


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion


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While it seems that most of Paizo's Adventure Paths run the nebulous "any alignment" and many run "any non-evil", I find myself particularly drawn to ones with stronger alignment themes.

So far, we've had some very good aligned adventures.
Skull and Shackles, the quintessential pirate AP, is the Chaotic adventure path; characters of any chaotic alignment feel right at home.
Wrath of the Righteous is the definitive Good adventure path.
Mummy's Mask plays heavily on the themes of Neutrality, both in the duplicity of good and evil and the absence of strong conviction.
Now with Hell's Vengeance we have a pan-Evil adventure, where any evil alignment is fair game.

What I can't seem to find is the Lawful AP.
Hell's Vengeance, while about putting down rebellion, is decidedly the Evil adventure path, and the players guide to Wrath of the Righteous explicitly states that the themes are good vs evil rather than law vs chaos.
Am I missing the adventure, or is there simply not one to date?
Were Paizo to publish a Lawful themed adventure path, what would you desire/expect from it?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

You could argue that King Maker was "Lawful" where encapsulated under Law is settlement and expansion of civilization. Arguably you could have made your kingdom anything you wanted (alignment wise) but the villains are chaos oriented, including bandits, "the wild", the first world, and corrupt duplicitous neighbour kings.

But on a raw alignment threshold of LLLLLAAAAWWWWW I agree there hasn't been much, but I'm not clear what that would look like, maybe an Aroden centric campaign, or a planer campaign with patronage coming from the lawful planes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

An AP focusing on rooting out a corruption of Axis of some sort could be fun. :-)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Galnörag wrote:
You could argue that King Maker was "Lawful" where encapsulated under Law is settlement and expansion of civilization. Arguably you could have made your kingdom anything you wanted (alignment wise) but the villains are chaos oriented, including bandits, "the wild", the first world, and corrupt duplicitous neighbour kings.

Spoiler:
I hesitate to label Kingmaker as "Lawful" because a big part of WHY the PCs are establishing their kingdom is as a sneaky way of rebelling against the current monarch of Brevoy, and the campaign's primary artifact, Briar, is a CN intelligent weapon, requiring someone in the party to have a Chaotic alignment to even utilize it.

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I'd suggest Council of Thieves, with minor modifications. Frame it as upstanding citizens versus criminal scum and the breakdown of order. Drop the rebellion angle (as written, the CoW never get around to actually rebelling anyways). Downplay LE Ecarrdian in favor of CE Ilnerik.

Shadow Lodge

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Finding a Lawful-aimed AP is probably going to be extremely difficult. Barring ones like Wrath and Hell's Vengeance where they're designed specifically for an alignment like Good or Evil, most of Paizo's adventures are written expecting a Chaotic Good party, which seems to be the "quintessential adventurer alignment".

Liberty's Edge

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It's very easy to do Curse of the Crimson Throne as a super-Lawful AP. You spend most of the early part working for the LN head of the City Guard, after all. And an investment in the LN city of Korvosa is a really good thing for making the AP work.

By default, your characters need to be willing to bend the law to the extent of taking justice against a really terrible guy who has hurt you into their own hands...but that's pretty consistent with many varieties of Lawful Alignment.

Curse of the Crimson Throne:
And, as it turns out, the main villain holds their position of power illegally, and a large portion of the plot involves proving that and legally removing them from office.

Of course, my entirely Chaotic PC group did fine in that one, too, but a Lawful group is very possible.

In the same vein, while it in no way requires Lawful Alignments, I don't think a single part of Legacy of Fire ever requires you to break a single law. And, again, you start out working for some very Lawful people.


My thoughts are more
"this AP FEELS Lawful"
rather than
"We CAN play a Lawful party in this."

A far as a Lawful AP goes, I think Galnörag was right in Kingmaker being as close as we've had so far, but Archpaladin Zousha makes a good point on it as well.

I just feel like the Law/Chaos axis doesn't get the attention that the Good/Evil axis does.


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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

My thoughts are more

"this AP FEELS Lawful"
rather than
"We CAN play a Lawful party in this."

A far as a Lawful AP goes, I think Galnörag was right in Kingmaker being as close as we've had so far, but Archpaladin Zousha makes a good point on it as well.

I just feel like the Law/Chaos axis doesn't get the attention that the Good/Evil axis does.

I think the reason the Law/Chaos axis doesn't get the attention that the Good/Evil axis does, is because ultimately it will be harder to write an entire AP along.

Good/Evil has many great literary examples both modern and classical. Not to mention the Good/Evil delineation between the two is more clear than the Law/Chaos line. Especially since I see Good/Evil as a character's Morals and Law/Chaos as a character's philosophy/approach in life. With that being said, the Law/Chaos spectrum is a lot more subjective and is going to be harder to pin-point than say Wrath of the Righteous' being the Good campaign and Hell's Vengeance being the Evil campaign.

I do have to say that having read most of Hell's Rebels, it definitely feels like it could be the Chaotic campaign, that could be played by Lawful people, but chaotic players are going to have a more interesting go at it.

Maybe one of the future APs will be a bit more Lawful? Maybe Strange Aeons, trying to fight the chaos/insanity that the Cthulu mythos is guaranteed to try and impose on the players.


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Orthos wrote:
Finding a Lawful-aimed AP is probably going to be extremely difficult. Barring ones like Wrath and Hell's Vengeance where they're designed specifically for an alignment like Good or Evil, most of Paizo's adventures are written expecting a Chaotic Good party, which seems to be the "quintessential adventurer alignment".

Interesting, since my AD&D days I have always taken Neutral Good to be the quintessential adventurer alignment. General altruism, without worrying about the rest.


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Gambit wrote:
Orthos wrote:
Finding a Lawful-aimed AP is probably going to be extremely difficult. Barring ones like Wrath and Hell's Vengeance where they're designed specifically for an alignment like Good or Evil, most of Paizo's adventures are written expecting a Chaotic Good party, which seems to be the "quintessential adventurer alignment".
Interesting, since my AD&D days I have always taken Neutral Good to be the quintessential adventurer alignment. General altruism, without worrying about the rest.

Neutral Good is the quintessential hero alignment, IMO. However, Robin Hood and other "freedom-loving" heroes (CG) tend to be more popular among role-players (especially in North America and many European cultures) than "honorable" heroes (LG) because of escapism. People tend to have the urge to "bend/break the rules" in pursuit of their goals and RPGs give them a chance to do so (by proxy) without fear of permanent sanctions.

Personally, I'd say the "quintessential adventurer alignment" is more likely Neutral with Chaotic tendencies, possibly shading over to Chaotic Neutral with Evil tendencies. "Kill the 'monsters'* and loot the treasure" is a stereotype style of play for a reason. Also, anti-heroes are still somewhat popular.

*- Or bandits, thieves, etc.; whoever the "'bad' guys/gals" are


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Harrowed Wizard wrote:
Not to mention the Good/Evil delineation between the two is more clear than the Law/Chaos line.

This is actually closest to my theory as to why there's more focus on G/E than L/C:

Western cultures can deal with the distinction between "Good" and "Evil" better than the distinction between "Law" and "Chaos". Us westerners tend to have a harder time with LvC because so much of our culture revolves around having "good" people defeating "evil", or becoming "evil", or more generally the interaction between the two. Think of it this way:

Which is easier for us to see, Archons vs. Devils or Devils vs. Demons? Most people in Western Culture would vote Archons vs. Devils; there's a clear divide between what is "good" and what is "evil".

Law vs. Chaos isn't an axis we're all that culturally equipped to deal with; we'd be more likely to see Robin Hood and Captain America as allies than enemies. (And yes, I consider Cap to be Lawful Good).


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Really? Captain America isn't exactly known for willing obedience to lawful authority, or expecting others to obey him. Particularly in the MCU, he's portrayed as leading by example and charisma, not out of authority. I can think of a couple comic lines that he flagrantly disobeyed orders and refused authority, as well.

Closer to on topic, weren't law and chaos used as synonyms for good and evil in the earlier editions of DnD, and their inclusion in later editions homages to those roots?


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Really? Because I see it as him following a very steadfast code of honor and trusting authority until it's been proven to be in the wrong. Those are both really lawful ideals; while I'd agree that he's more Good than Lawful, one cannot be the epitome of an alignment. To me, Steve Rogers tries his damnedest to be Lawful Good, and since he knows what's expected of that kind of person, he's good at doing it. Does he slip up? I don't think anyone's arguing that he doesn't. But he tries, and trying is a big part of working to embody any alignment.

Liberty's Edge

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AnimatedPaper wrote:
Really? Captain America isn't exactly known for willing obedience to lawful authority, or expecting others to obey him. Particularly in the MCU, he's portrayed as leading by example and charisma, not out of authority. I can think of a couple comic lines that he flagrantly disobeyed orders and refused authority, as well.

Uh...this all implies Lawful people don't do the things you list. That isn't true. Lawful people keep to their principles no matter what, even if that means disobeying an order that violates them.

AnimatedPaper wrote:
Closer to on topic, weren't law and chaos used as synonyms for good and evil in the earlier editions of DnD, and their inclusion in later editions homages to those roots?

Not exactly.


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I think the number of alignment axes might have even sort of back and forth, but this actually occurred before AD&D, which already had the same 2 axis alignment graph (except for some name chsnges found in Planescape; the version of Basic D&D that was out around the same time had a simpler 2-dimensional alignment graph, although I have heard of earlier versions of it with just Law vs Chaos. But even up to the present time, people seem to havee trouble separating the axes, most obviously in the Paladin-Antipaladin dipole and in 4th Edition's awkward S-shaped alignment graph, but also in assignment of many of the more supposedly beneficient entities to Lawful Neutral (Abadar and Irori, as well as many NPCs) and many of the malignant entities to Chantic Neutral (Besmara, Gorum, Groetus, many of the Cthulhu Mythos entities, and the Slaad of AD&D (in)famhy) instead of to Chaotic Evil where they belong for the attitude and/or goals they are described as having. Indeed, even in Pathfinder, the goals of the Daemons, Demons, and Proteans are described as being awfully similar.


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Graeme Lewis wrote:
Really? Because I see it as him following a very steadfast code of honor and trusting authority until it's been proven to be in the wrong. Those are both really lawful ideals; while I'd agree that he's more Good than Lawful, one cannot be the epitome of an alignment. To me, Steve Rogers tries his damnedest to be Lawful Good, and since he knows what's expected of that kind of person, he's good at doing it. Does he slip up? I don't think anyone's arguing that he doesn't. But he tries, and trying is a big part of working to embody any alignment.

So, drawing from MCU, our first view of Cap is of him continuously attempting to get around regulations that are designed to keep both him and his unit safe. Instead of being satisfied with contriving to the war effort in anyway that he can, he unilaterally decides that he knows best, and that only his vision for himself is the only one hat is allowed to happen, no matter the consequences to anyone or anything else. And then. Post serum, he *again* decides the duty in front of him is not enough, and he has to walk his own path. And then it happens again in Winter Soldier. And apparently again in Civil War.

How many times is it going to be authority getting it wrong, and when does it start becoming he only obeys orders when he agrees with them? I mean, he makes the right calls, don't get me wrong, but that doesn't make him any less of a loose cannon.
If you want to talk comics, then to keep it brief, I'll just say that the entire Civil War happened because he decided he wasn't going to wait for authority to get it wrong; he was disobeying right from the word, "go."
Deadmanwalking wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Really? Captain America isn't exactly known for willing obedience to lawful authority, or expecting others to obey him. Particularly in the MCU, he's portrayed as leading by example and charisma, not out of authority. I can think of a couple comic lines that he flagrantly disobeyed orders and refused authority, as well.
Uh...this all implies Lawful people don't do the things you list. That isn't true. Lawful people keep to their principles no matter what, even if that means disobeying an order that violates them.

This discussion illustrates how difficult a Lawful AP might be, because of how differently we all interpret what that's ought mean. Your final sentence doesn't describe lawful to me. Good, yes, lawful, no. I'll even go as far as to say that sounds more like a CG, "The ends justify the means" character. I don't intend to put words in your mouth, but if I were your GM judging a character like that, that's the call I would make.

Liberty's Edge

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AnimatedPaper wrote:
This discussion illustrates how difficult a Lawful AP might be, because of how differently we all interpret what that's ought mean. Your final sentence doesn't describe lawful to me. Good, yes, lawful, no. I'll even go as far as to say that sounds more like a CG, "The ends justify the means" character. I don't intend to put words in your mouth, but if I were your GM judging a character like that, that's the call I would make.

But I'm not talking about 'the ends justifying the means'. Quite the opposite. I'm talking about an honorable man refusing to obey an order he believes to be dishonorable. If a Paladin's king orders him to kill children, he says 'No. That is wrong and I will not allow it. Slay me if you will, but no one will harm children while I draw breath.' That's what makes him a Paladin.

A CG character would say 'Yes, sir. whatever you say.' Then go start a rebellion or come back a week later lying and claiming that they were all dead after spiriting them to safety.

That's the difference between stereotypical LG and stereotypical CG. Or at least one potential difference.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Look, I don't want to get into a further drawn out fight, since it's wandering off topic, but when you say "Keep to their principles, no matter what," that is, to me, saying the same as "ends justify the means," where in this case the the "lawful" person's principles are the end s/he is working toward, not some momentary goal. I understand what you are saying; I simply don't agree with your stance on this. Disobeying a bad law is one thing, Paladins would be very bored if they couldn't do that and still be lawful. making a habit of disobeying orders merely because you don't agree with them, with few to no counter examples of willingly obeying lawful orders even if you personally find them to be wrong, I interpret that behavior to be more chaotic than lawful.
Also, Cap did start a rebellion. A couple of times. It's something he does.

Upon reflection, maybe a lawful AP could be useful. Using adventures to facilitate a discussion on what it means to be lawful, like the current AP seems to be challenging what it means to be evil (check out the similar to this discussions of the evil iconics), could be worthwhile and interesting to play through. Although possibly less fun to GM.


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There are no slaads in Pf, best CN foes IMO

Strange Aeons may work as long as starting premise doesn't get in the way

Need adventure to redress an influx of turmoil and disruption without being overly zealous and righteous about it?
Temple of elemental chaos type of thing

Dark Archive

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How about Buddy Cop movie the AP? Cracking on criminal syndicate sure is lawful : D


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A pirate-hunting AP, maybe... a sort of counter-Skulls & Shackles...


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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
Wrath of the Righteous is the definitive Good adventure path.

While it certainly has it's appeal for running Good characters, you don't need them to succeed at the AP. We even had one evil character in our group.


CorvusMask wrote:
How about Buddy Cop movie the AP? Cracking on criminal syndicate sure is lawful : D

Eddie Murphy in Beverly Hills Cop was chaotic as hell.

Dark Archive

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Slithery D wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
How about Buddy Cop movie the AP? Cracking on criminal syndicate sure is lawful : D
Eddie Murphy in Beverly Hills Cop was chaotic as hell.

Shh, don't reveal the joke : D

Besides, isn't the other pair in Buddy Cops always the by the book one? : D

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

So... what would a Lawful AP look like, perhaps Brandon Sanderson's Storm Light Archive... but in Golorion, and the structure of Pathfinder? It would probably involve Rovagug and maybe Lamshtu cults.

It could look like:
1. I was going to write goblins and bandits, but... really Rise of the Rune Lords book one, basically lesser forces of chaos with a mysterious evil backer cause chaos.
2. Maybe evil cults, focusing on spreading plague and blight to crops, clergy of Erastil brought in for some help.
3. Bad creatures of the First World come out, and cause terror and destruction, players find out something even worse is in the first world driving them out
4. Players travel into the first world to find out what is going on and discover plot to star spawn Rovagug spawn out of bad place
5. Players find mcguffin of power related to Azlanti/Arodan, perhaps engaging surviving sect of Arodenites who have no power preserve his relics, and test the characters on there adherence to the principals of law/civilization
6. Save world from natural and supernatural forces of destruction which seek to wipe humanity from planet, including the chosen form of the destroyer.

All that sounds nice, but it barely scrapes the concepts of law. Honestly, Hell's Vengeance might be more lawful.

Its like defining Lawfulness as defeating chaos, but a barbarian can smash chaos to defeat chaos as easily as a cleric of Abadar can bill for his healing...


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I would say that the best way is either to tie the metaphorical chaos into the plot (i.e. "every act of anarchy empowers X" type thing) or have it all about a collective/group v. a wild rash of lawlessness.

Things like forcing you to navigate the system, make strong negotiations, enforcing and equalizing order across chaotic systems... that sort of thing.

Using a monastery of Abadar, Erastil, Irori, and/or Zon-Kuthon, or an Order of the Hellknights (non-evil!), say, to stabilize a problem created by... oh, let's pull out... hm... Azathoth- or Groteus-follwers, say, or even corrupted proteans or something, if you're looking for a divine kind of plot.

On the other hand, if the point is to organize, and build, perhaps something in either Sargava or Mzali, or even Molthune - something where, for the sake of the AP, you had to create and maintain a a lawful organization. Not for the purposes of Kingmaker, say, but for the purposes of the "greater good" and the collective of all. In a way, like Hell's Vengeance, except without the explicit focus on evil.

In a recent variant of the Cortex+ system I'm hammering out, I identified three traits of the 'lawful' alignment, based on the things in the Core rulebook: community, discipline, and order. If you build a story based on two of those three principles, you could have a fairly "lawful-leaning" AP; at least as "lawful leaning" as Skulls and Shackles is "chaotic leaning" which is all that's really needed.

One of the main problems with building an explicitly lawful AP is that, in many regards, "lawful" things can tend toward (but are not inherently) boring. Like infrastructure, lawful forces are not usually appreciated until everything is in anarchy. And chaotic forces can be great at defeating the bad problems that caused the anarchy, but they're not so great at organizing and focusing and rebuilding - because they're tendency is toward individualism, freedom, and personal liberty; not community, discipline, and order. It's not that chaotic people can't have those things, much as lawful folk can have freedom or personal liberty... but chaotic folk aren't focused around those tendencies as a whole.

Anyway, those are a few ideas! ... but others probably have better ones! :D


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A "bring Law and order to Galt" Adventure Path.


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^Actually, depending upon how Hell's Vengeance turns out, an AP to bring order to Galt could be the other side of the coin from Hell's Vengeance. We have yet to get an idea of what goes wrong globally or regionally if the PCs fail in Hell's Vengeance, but my guess is that final success by the Glorious Reclamation (not stopped by the PCs) could unwittingly spawn a Demonic State in Isger and Cheliax, sweeping aside any good done by the Glorious Reclamation and plunging much of the region into destructive anarchy that would make Galt look like a Tea Party. So the flip side would be that those who would quest to bring order to Galt have to be careful not to unleash Hell in Galt.

Dark Archive

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Seriously though, if you want to make Lawful alignment, players need to be in position of authority in order to enforce the law. So they need to be, for example, marshals or sheriffs or city guards or something.

Hmm... AP set in Alkenstar : D Then again, Westerns are pretty chaotic even if sheriff is involved

City Guard the AP also sounds kinda cool. It could be fun reversal of the whole "City guards are mooks who chaotic adventurers make joke of" thing, you would be instead the ones who are fighting those pesky annoying adventurers who make life so complicated for good people :D Also would subvert the whole "guards are useless, adventurers are the true heroes!" thing


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We played a city guard campaign once, it was fun but the best bits always seemed to be when the PCs were more of a scoundrel than the villians!!

I dont have enough Golarion-Fu to be that specific but for me, a Lawful campaign, and quite different to the norm, would ideally be like:
-The PCs would have, or be the authority, but somewhat low key and subtle in their ways
-campaign against non-evil chaos, otherwise its nothing too different

So the thing they camapaign against would be
-'alien' to this world. Its nature is harmful to our 'nature', to its land, to its peoples, to its beast...but not maliciously. Its not intentionally cruel....it would be regarded as 'neutral' if it wasnt so disruptive, destructive and cause such disorder, suffering and despair.
-It undoes the natural world the heroes live in. It transforms the land, it alters the beasts, it affects magic, 'science', and ultimately its people
-It is therefore both hard to understand, and so to defeat. Afterall if it has no goal, there is no obvious ways to stop it
-Its affects are subtle at first....in a town fires no longer burn, a river always runs ice cold, herd animals turn aggressive, iron seems very fragile, milk is sour.....this means the starter low-level PCs are sent to investigate and an AP begins, very subtlety. Maybe some portent has partially foreseen things. Could be a mini-game where the PCs try to keep the panic level low or it feeds the 'chaos'


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
CorvusMask wrote:
Seriously though, if you want to make Lawful alignment, players need to be in position of authority in order to enforce the law. So they need to be, for example, marshals or sheriffs or city guards or something.

Hm, that sounds a bit like the first book of Hell's Vengeance. I think you could easily run that book as a Lawful-centric book instead of an Evil-centric book. You even mentioned you’d have to be in law enforcement for a lawful AP and to me it looks like you are trying to become deputy sheriffs for the town (I love the western vibe I'm getting so far from Hell's Vengeance). For the later parts of Hell's Vengeance we'll have to see, but to me, from the descriptions it sounds like you are trying to rise through the ranks of an organisation, trying uphold the law, while keeping rebels down. To me that sounds lawful, while the methods you’ll be using will be evil (while still working within the law).

So far I have only flown over Hell’s Vengeance, but it looks to me more about chaos versus law, just like Wrath of the Righteous sounded more like good versus evil.

I’d like to add that many people seem to use the words lawful, law and legal synonymous, which creates a lot more confusion around the concept around lawful characters than necessary.


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I think the central issue with a lawful AP is the restricted freedom for the players. The party fights to defend or establish some specific kind of order, and nobody is allowed to deviate from this order too much. Hell's Vengeance is lawful to some extent - you have to defend and reestablish Cheliax's kind of order. Opposing the government or establishing your own rule is no option, by default.

For some players, this might be a welcome structure. But I guess the majority would dislike such a straitjacket. At least I don't like being just the tool of order in a game - and I am not even chaotic in real life. Being a hero or villain is significantly more attractive than being a law enforcer...


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Oh yeah.
This adventure will not suit everyone


... much like an evil AP... >.>


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Or mega dungeon
Or sandbox
Or tech

So in fact all are a matter of taste n style!

Dark Archive

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thenovalord wrote:
We played a city guard campaign once, it was fun but the best bits always seemed to be when the PCs were more of a scoundrel than the villians!!

...Come to think about it, who says that in Lawful AP PCs have to be lawful all the time? You wouldn't say that in Chaotic AP PCs have to break law all the time or refuse to follow orders for sake of doing so. Or that in Hell's Vengeance characters have to be evil jerks on their free time : D

Like I could totally see Lawful City Guard AP covering both the "By the book" and "Maverick" style of cops/guards, all the book needs to do is not make assumptions on what is "correct" way to solve criminal problems, just detail consequences of PCs' actions and have criminal hides out and such to raid :D


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CorvusMask wrote:
Like I could totally see Lawful City Guard AP covering both the "By the book" and "Maverick" style of cops/guards...

It's really very simple to sort alignment by looking at Top Gun.

Maverick is Chaotic in alignment, obviously. Note that while he's good, and his disdain for the rules helps him at times, he messes up plenty of times throughout and is certainly not perfect.

Goose is his long-suffering Neutral partner.

Iceman is his rival, by the book, and has a Lawful alignment. Although he can be a bit of an ass sometimes, he's not a bad person by any means, and makes several very accurate remarks about Maverick's problems throughout the movie.

There, done.


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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

While it seems that most of Paizo's Adventure Paths run the nebulous "any alignment" and many run "any non-evil", I find myself particularly drawn to ones with stronger alignment themes.

So far, we've had some very good aligned adventures.
Skull and Shackles, the quintessential pirate AP, is the Chaotic adventure path; characters of any chaotic alignment feel right at home.
Wrath of the Righteous is the definitive Good adventure path.
Mummy's Mask plays heavily on the themes of Neutrality, both in the duplicity of good and evil and the absence of strong conviction.
Now with Hell's Vengeance we have a pan-Evil adventure, where any evil alignment is fair game.

What I can't seem to find is the Lawful AP.
Hell's Vengeance, while about putting down rebellion, is decidedly the Evil adventure path, and the players guide to Wrath of the Righteous explicitly states that the themes are good vs evil rather than law vs chaos.
Am I missing the adventure, or is there simply not one to date?
Were Paizo to publish a Lawful themed adventure path, what would you desire/expect from it?

You know, it would take a better master designer than I to pull it off, but your post got me thinking and gave me an idea of what a "lawful" game might look like.

I think you'd need a harmonious sort of setting to start, maybe an almost Mayberry like town, perhaps dull, but prospering well. It might work best if the PCs were either locals themselves with ties, or regular visitors who saw this as a safe haven. RP some interactions with the folk.

Have the PCs go on a simple merchant drop to another town , maybe with one encounter for a week, and then return to find everything has gone nuts.

The Lord Mayor, an honorable family man, is now drinking, wenching, and neglecting his duties as he throws money away on hedonistic pursuits. A ten year old trouble maker has a magic sling he's using to harass people with. The former richest man in town is found begging in the streets, his manor gone, and worse, his warehouse and shops uprooted as well ruining the jobs of many. The adventurers find a young teenage man hiding from the women of the town, terrified. It turns out the women who see him seem to suffer from cannibalistic urges. From him, they learn that he wished that the women in the town (Any female PCs were out of it) would just find him delicious... he meant sexy, the wish went literal.

The right questions, saving and subduing in turn, will eventually allow the PCs to learn that a deck of many things has been unearthed! Someone, unaware of it's full ability, brought it to a friendly game at a local park, and the chaos spread from there as at first it granted good things, and then went wild.

But where is the deck now? Traveling with a merchant who bought it off the original unearther, and he's heading towards a bigger city. The AP becomes something of a chase where PCs do their best to put the genie back in the bottle before the entire nation devolves into madness.

Sure, some of the PCs might find it funny at first, but people will die as reapers arise from a death card. Demons and Devils will suddenly persecute hapless NPCs they want to suffer thanks to the Flames, and so on.

Pacing could be tricky, and you have to make sure it doesn't feel like an effort in futility for too long, but I think a Deck of many things might just be a good catalyst for chaos that must be stopped.


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Graeme Lewis wrote:
Really? Because I see it as him following a very steadfast code of honor and trusting authority until it's been proven to be in the wrong. Those are both really lawful ideals; while I'd agree that he's more Good than Lawful, one cannot be the epitome of an alignment. To me, Steve Rogers tries his damnedest to be Lawful Good, and since he knows what's expected of that kind of person, he's good at doing it. Does he slip up? I don't think anyone's arguing that he doesn't. But he tries, and trying is a big part of working to embody any alignment.

Until I read Michael Carpenter in the Harry Dresden series, I always considered Captain America a perfect actual example of Paladin - the old school ones who followed alignment, not a God.

Scarab Sages

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The Galt example gave me an idea: A colony has just won its freedom by way of a revolt, but things are still very chaotic on the ground. The PCs start small, protecting their neighborhood from looters. Eventually they wind up in the role of the Continental Congress after the American Revolution: Establishing the new governing principles of the nation.

Unlike most APs, the climax of Book 6 might not involve combat at all. It could be a series of debates between rival political parties culminating in a decisive vote, rather than a brawl. (This might be the Ultimate Intrigue campaign, as well as the Lawful campaign.)

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KarlBob wrote:

The Galt example gave me an idea: A colony has just won its freedom by way of a revolt, but things are still very chaotic on the ground. The PCs start small, protecting their neighborhood from looters. Eventually they wind up in the role of the Continental Congress after the American Revolution: Establishing the new governing principles of the nation.

Unlike most APs, the climax of Book 6 might not involve combat at all. It could be a series of debates between rival political parties culminating in a decisive vote, rather than a brawl. (This might be the Ultimate Intrigue campaign, as well as the Lawful campaign.)

Can't you essentially do this in Hell's Rebels? Yes, rebellions tend to be viewed as Chaotic, but it seems to me that the emphasis is more rebelling against Barzillai's naked and petty cruelty (the whole "if a paladin sees an unjust law they can't change, they'll break it to do what's right and work to restore order later/Good's more important than Law" thing) after that, you're left with a newly freed Archduchy on your hands that is looking to you for leadership...

Scarab Sages

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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
KarlBob wrote:

The Galt example gave me an idea: A colony has just won its freedom by way of a revolt, but things are still very chaotic on the ground. The PCs start small, protecting their neighborhood from looters. Eventually they wind up in the role of the Continental Congress after the American Revolution: Establishing the new governing principles of the nation.

Unlike most APs, the climax of Book 6 might not involve combat at all. It could be a series of debates between rival political parties culminating in a decisive vote, rather than a brawl. (This might be the Ultimate Intrigue campaign, as well as the Lawful campaign.)

Can't you essentially do this in Hell's Rebels? Yes, rebellions tend to be viewed as Chaotic, but it seems to me that the emphasis is more rebelling against Barzillai's naked and petty cruelty (the whole "if a paladin sees an unjust law they can't change, they'll break it to do what's right and work to restore order later/Good's more important than Law" thing) after that, you're left with a newly freed Archduchy on your hands that is looking to you for leadership...

I haven't read or played Hell's Rebels, but it sounds like a reasonable way to extend the campaign beyond the AP as written.

The difference is that I proposed to start the players at level 1 in the immediate aftermath of a rebellion (which presumably had NPC leaders). From what I understand, the characters in Hell's Rebels are major players in the revolution, and they'll be pretty high level by the time Barzillai is defeated.


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Hell's Rebels can definitely be done as chaotic or lawful, and using the law to your advantage plays a roll. Cheliax is something a lawful nation, so even though you're a rebellion and that runs kinda chaotic, doing lawful is quite possible. Still, overall I'd say it's lean is neutral good, working with law or chaos as required.

On Wrath- While it is the 'good' adventure path, it is also to a large extent the Paladin/Lawful Good adventure path. The Crusade is lead by a Lawful Good god, there's an LG artifact you'll pick up, more of your major allies are Lawful than not, etc.. Stuff for CGs in there too, but that's the lean.

And re-establishing a city in the chaotic areas is the goal of one part.

While one can be NG or CG while playing it, it seems to me to fit best of all as lawful.

Similarly I've heard people express that Hell's Vengeance serves best with Lawful Evil, not just evil, since you're under a LE authority.

They are the good and evil adventure paths, but they do have law-leaning.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Davia D wrote:
Similarly I've heard people express that Hell's Vengeance serves best with Lawful Evil, not just evil, since you're under a LE authority.

Actually, certain areas of the AP are requiring me to tinker with the plot as written to make it more appropriate for my hardcore LE Thrunies. If anything, Hell's Vengeance seems aimed at the Neutral Evil crowd...

Thus far the most "lawful" path out there really seems to be "do what you feel like" Kingmaker.

Silver Crusade

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I've only played half of it, but I've always felt like Legacy of Fire is the lawful AP. You're bringing civilization back to a ruined town, fighting against gnoll cultists of Rovagug, and hanging out with priests of Abadar in a city full of commerce.

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