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Mort - I just reread and spotted that paragraph. The additional language helps significantly. Thank you for adding it.
EDIT: The paragraph below, I believe, is also relatively new, and it also helps manage the expectations in the guide.
This is particularly relevant to ‘gish’ characters (3/4 BAB with 6th level spellcasting), who might be comfortable in Orange baseline combat metrics given their abilities to buff themselves, their allies, and cast troubleshooting spells such as see invisibility, ghostbane dirge, align weapon, etc.
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Ferious; What I was trying to get across was basically what the guide and with clarification from Mort, was correct. The effect is achieving certain parameters within the confines of your level. If it IS your main form of contribution.. it should be Green. If it is red you are not doing so as your main job and thus will expect not to do well. The guide reflects that.
The Inquisitor I mentioned ofcourse would be built differently from my own but admittedly their base would be low. After a certain point however, things like Bane become similar to rage and thus are on most of the time. As such you can calculate it as though they were and have one as though they are not. IF firing all cylinders you cant reach green then you need to fix something.
I have also included the following to account for certain class abilities that keep coming up:"If you possess strong abilities with limited usages per day (such as challenge, smite, mutagen, bane, etc.) you would want to benchmark both your 'baseline' combat metrics as well as when you're 'firing on all cylinders'. This will give you a more complete perspective from which to decide if you're comfortable with your character's resource allocation."
I think this is a very good addition.
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For a lark, I ran some numbers for Mr. Fighter at lvl 10.
As at level 5, except he picks up: +1 holy weapon, +3 fullplate, +3 cloak of resistance, +2 belt of giant strength, gloves of duelling, +2 heavy shield, +1 amulet of natural armor, and 1000gp of miscellaneous items. That could be spent more efficiently, but other than the gloves of dueling, it's all big six numerical items which is the goal.
For feats, he picks up Toughness, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, and has his lvl 6 fighter feat, and his level 7 and 9 general feats unaccounted for. For purposes of this exercise, we'll assume he picks up Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Quickdraw, though there are better ways to spend them and lightning reflexes would be a noticeable boost to his saves.
With his primary weapon,
Mrfighter (bastard sword) is now blue on attack bonus, halfway between blue and green on damage (a haste will put him up to blue)
He is still green/orange on saves.
But he is just barely orange on AC. However, using the new "How long can you survive metric", his 104 hp with Toughness (and 14 con) enable him to take 4 full attacks* from the fire giant without dying, so his tankiness is blue by the metrics there.
Interestingly, when we go to his backup strategy: the masterwork mighty [now +6] composite longbow, thanks to weapon training and the gloves of dueling, he's now +15/+10 for 1d8+6--nearly green on attack bonus and solid orange for EDV.
If he spends his gold a little more wisely (getting +2 dex and +2 fullplate rather than +3 fullplate) and spends a few of those unused feats on archery (Point Blank shot and rapid shot would be enough), he can push his way to orange in that style.
Assuming 14 dex and rapid shot, he can have +14/+14/+9 for 1d8+9 for EDV 25.245
*Realistically, there's about a 50/50 chance he drops before the fire giant's last attack and then gets plowed into oblivion by an attack that would not have a chance at hitting him when conscious but smacks his prone and helpless self pretty reliably. But that's not really what we're measuring.
**Also interesting: Mr Fighter has a lot of headroom for party buffs. Barkskin, shield of faith, haste, or protection from evil will boost his AC noticeably and get him back to green--pushing him into the clearly blue category of tankiness. Haste will also push his melee EDV to blue and, if he spent the feats for rapid shot, his archery EDV to green. With haste, bless, prayer, and a greater magic weapon (+2) for the bow, he has +18/+18/+18/+13 for 1d8+12 which pushes his archery EDV to 53.54 which is close to blue territory. Toss a bard in there (either because the party has a bard rather than a wizard or because he's the standard 5th man) and he's cracking blue EDV even when forced into his backup fighting style.
If we switch gears to Mr. Fighter, Greatsword edition, he loses 3 AC from the shield (he makes up for one by buying a ring of protection), putting him at the red benchmark, and gains 4.5 damage per swing (7.5 when Power Attacking) and weighs in at 61.2 EDV (high green) or around 70 (low blue) when Power Attacking. However the 3 fewer points of AC put him down to orange for tankiness as the fire giant hits him for an EDV of 45.54. Using the EDV, the fighter is dead (136.62 out of 104 hp + 14 con=118 hp before dead) at the end of the fire giant's third full attack. Greatsword edition has a little less headroom for party buffs--barkskin and protection from evil together just get him to the orange AC/Not quite blue tankiness that bastard sword edition started out at.
Conclusion
1. Mr Fighter (bastard sword edition) is a viable character at level 10 and manages to pull off the tank pretty well despite the apparently low difference in AC between him and (greatsword edition).
2. Mr Fighter (greatsword edition) at level 10 may not actually be as much better than (bastard sword edition) as most posters seem to think.
3. Mr Fighter (either edition) has a lot of headroom to get better--especially at secondary combat modes--as a result of common party buffs.
4. Saves are a significant weakness for all editions of Mr. Fighter and there's not a terrible lot he can do about it other than be a sacred tattoo/fortune's favored half-orc (by level 15, taking a luck blade or a stone of good luck will do the same thing) or take lightning reflexes/iron will and save enhancing traits like birthmark or deft dodger.
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I know that Fighters, in general, are not as effective as other characters. But when looking at these types of metrics, Fighter is the class best suited to meeting them, thanks to Weapon Training, Weapon Specialization, and lots of Feats. With the Gloves of Dueling, that's an extra +4/+4 by 10th level (+4/+6 with Weapon Specialization), always on, every encounter, no action needed to activate, no limited uses. That on top of Full-BAB and being able to devote gold to weapons and armor more than other classes means that the Fighter will match up very favorably when looking at to-hit, damage, and AC. Where the Fighter falls short is in utility, and often saves.
I only mention that, because I think Fighters are often viewed as a subpar class, and someone might look at those numbers and think if it's that easy for a Fighter to meet those metrics, then it must be even easier for a good class! In reality, it's just the Fighter being good at the one thing the Fighter is good at.
Half-orc/Sacred Tattoo/Fate's Favored is definitely a powerful combination. Anytime I post looking for advice on a build, invariably it gets suggested. It's worth noting that an item now exists far cheaper than the Luck Blade or Stone of Good Luck that can give you the +1 luck bonus to all saves. The Lucky Horseshoe from Occult Adventures. The Four Leaf Clover can give a slightly larger bonus for a limited number of saves per day even cheaper. Given the existence of those two items, I feel mechanically justified in not making my Warpriest a Half-orc. Which is good, because a bunch of more optimized Oloch clones gets boring pretty quickly.
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Fighters actually are one of the best classes in the game for pure unbuffed DPR optimization, which is why they come out ahead for the simplest benchmarking exercises.
Once spells/SLAs, smite/rage/martial flexibility etc. are factored in, other martial classes generally either exceed the fighter's benchmarked combat metrics, or simply have a wider utility portfolio.
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Benchmarking a barbarian.
Barbarian 5 (Human)
Str 19, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus Greatsword, Toughness, Furious Focus
Rage rounds/day: 14-16
Equipment: +1 greatsword, +1 breastplate, +1 cloak of resistance, +1 amulet of natural armor, +1 ring of protection, 1335 gp in consumables or misc items.
AC: 20; HP: 60; Atk: +11 2d6+13 (Power Attack with Furious Focus)
When Raging and in guarded stance: AC 19, HP 70; Atk: +13 2d6+16
Saves: +7 (+9 raging)/ +4/ +3 (+5 raging); +3 vs spells and SLAs while raging.
Rage Powers: Superstition (+3), Guarded Stance (+1)
At level 5, he has green attack bonus (raging or non-raging); green EDV (17.6 normal; 20.24 raging), red armor class (20 normal, 19 raging), and green/orange/red (orange while raging; green vs spells & SLAs)
At level 10
Str 24 (includes belt), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus Greatsword, Toughness, Furious Focus, Dodge, Improved Critical
Rage powers: Superstition (+4), Guarded Stance (+2), Moment of Clarity, Improved DR x2
Equipment: +1 holy greatsword, +3 breastplate, +4 belt of giant strength, +2 cloak of resistance, +1 amulet of natural armor, +2 ring of protection, 3000 gp or so in consumables or misc items.
AC: 24 (reg or raging thanks to guarded stance), DR 1/- (3/- while raging); HP: 115; Atk: +19/+11 2d6+20+2d6 vs evil (Power Attack with Furious Focus)
When Raging and in guarded stance: AC 24, HP 135; Atk: +21/+13 2d6+23+2d6 vs evil
Saves: +11 (+13 raging)/ +7/ +6 (+8 raging); +4 vs spells and SLAs while raging.
At level 10, he has green attack bonus, red AC, and green/orange/red (blue/orange/green vs spells or SLAs while raging). Nonraging EDV is about 50. (Green). Raging EDV about 62 (very high Green).
The tanking survivability is orange. The giant's EDV vs his non-raging self is 55.275. Raging, it goes down to 51.975. Whether raging or non-raging, at the end of the fire giant's third full attack, he's dead. (However, if he's not raging, slightly above average damage for the fire giant could put the barbarian unconscious at the end of round 2).
If the barbarian has to pull out his longbow, he is +13/+8 for 1d8+7. He has 3000 gp left, so let's give him a +1 adaptive composite longbow which puts him at +13/+8 1d8+8 or 1d8+10 raging. EDV 11.96 Orange attack bonus, but red EDV even when raging. If we toss haste, bless, prayer, and greater magic weapon for the bow in, he gets up to +17/+17/+12 for 1d8+12 (raging); EDV 33.5775 or low green. A bard would get him to mid green but that's as far as he goes.
The barbarian's headroom for buffing is a little bit more limited than the fighter's due to superstition forcing saving thows against haste and good hope and having spend his money on a higher ring of protection (limiting the bonus from shield of faith/magic circle vs evil). Fortunately, prayer and bless don't have saving throws.
Conclusions
A. Surprisingly, the raging barbarian does not get better EDV than Mr Fighter (greatsword).
B. Also quite surpringly, the two points of AC that the Mr Fighter (Greatsword) has over the barbarian make more of a survivability difference than DR 3/- against the fire giant. The fighter is only about 18 points past his death threshold. The barbarian ends up about 50 points past the death threshold. With some subpar rolling for the giant or a cure critical wounds, the fighter probably survives. The barbarian is toast and even a cure critical wounds won't make a difference. (Assuming the barbarian fails his save which he has to make due to superstition unless he uses moment of clarity cleverly). Taking tanky rage powers with the barbarian helped a little (without guarded stance, he goes down in round 2), but not much.
C. The barbarian, on the other hand, ends up with some pretty good saves and is a lot more resistant to magic than the fighter.
D. A lot of the fighter's advantage is the gloves of dueling. Due to them, the fighter can't afford quite as much of a strength belt as the barbarian, but it doesn't matter.
E. Headroom while buffed is also pretty significant. A two feat investment can make the difference between being able to buff your backup fighting style EDV from red to green and being able to buff it to blue.
F. Mr Fighter (bastard sword) is surprisingly competitive in this benchmarking duel, weighing in at an EDV of 54.81 when power attacking (more than the non-raging greatsword barbarian but less than the raging barbarian). Sword and board has a reputation for having inadequate damage but it doesn't seem to be in evidence.
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The Barbarian should really have a Furious weapon if the Fighter has Gloves of Dueling.
He should also probably have Beast Totem instead of Guarded Stance. Beast Totem actually gives more AC, and also leads to Pounce. He should likely not have Improved DR, it's a mediocre Rage Power at best.
In short, you're comparing a pretty optimal fighter in terms of gear and Feat choices to a Barbarian with 4 of his 5 Rage powers as things I've literally never seen taken, and no specialty items.
That's...not a good comparison.
The Barbarian should really have a Furious weapon if the Fighter has Gloves of Dueling.
He should also probably have Beast Totem instead of Guarded Stance. Beast Totem actually gives more AC, and also leads to Pounce. He should likely not have Improved DR, it's a mediocre Rage Power at best.
In short, you're comparing a pretty optimal fighter in terms of gear and Feat choices to a Barbarian with 4 of his 5 Rage powers as things I've literally never seen taken, and no specialty items.
That's...not a good comparison.
Gotta second the above.
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The Barbarian should really have a Furious weapon if the Fighter has Gloves of Dueling.
He should also probably have Beast Totem instead of Guarded Stance. Beast Totem actually gives more AC, and also leads to Pounce. He should likely not have Improved DR, it's a mediocre Rage Power at best.
In short, you're comparing a pretty optimal fighter in terms of gear and Feat choices to a Barbarian with 4 of his 5 Rage powers as things I've literally never seen taken, and no specialty items.
That's...not a good comparison.
Fighter is apparently a bit more straightforward than barbarian. These are very basic (almost core builds and I haven't built either a fighter or barbarian to this level in detail before). Gloves of dueling are the only non-core item on either of them. (The fighter is not optimal--dodge, toughness, etc, non-archetype rather than weapon master)--we're talking a very basic fighter here and not especially optimized for the comparison or he'd have furious focus like the barbarian). If I take away gloves of dueling and give the fighter an upgraded belt of giant strength and a rose prism ioun stone instead, the color codes won't change, but Mr Fighter (Bastard Sword) will go down to 49.41 EDV when power attacking--barely less than the non-raging barbarian.
Going the other way, if we trade out Mr Barbarian's +1 holy weapon for a +2 Furious Weapon:
Atk: +20/+12 2d6+21 (Power Attack with Furious Focus) EDV: 43.68
When Raging Atk: +24/+16 2d6+26. EDV 63.36
The barbarian doesn't quite hit blue EDV but is very close with the furious weapon. (Mr Fighter: Greatsword is still ahead and actually hits blue EDV, but only barely. In the unlikely event that Mr. Barbarian runs out of rage rounds, Mr Fighter: Bastard sword is now way ahead of the non-raging EDV).
There are some 40 base classes in Paizo's published material, plus I don't know how many Prestige Classes. Just looking at the former, if each has say half a dozen archetypes (there may be more, I don't know) that's well over 200 possible character concepts in the game, even before you add in third party options. It's hard enough to choose amongst all those possible concepts, and now you want players to do extensive math to see if their character is "viable"? Whatever happened to just playing the game?
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The barbarian doesn't quite hit blue EDV but is very close with the furious weapon. (Mr Fighter: Greatsword is still ahead and actually hits blue EDV, but only barely. In the unlikely event that Mr. Barbarian runs out of rage rounds, Mr Fighter: Bastard sword is now way ahead of the non-raging EDV).
I wouldn't expect them to be very different in EDV. At 11th, the Barbarian probably pulls ahead a little bit due to Greater Rage, and is certainly way higher when Pouncing vs. the Fighter's Standard action attack (if he can pounce), but really, they're gonna be on par for the most part.
No, I was more talking defensively. The Fighter has higher AC purely for because of Plate Armor, and the Barbarian has a few ways to compensate (including just grabbing a proficiency and wearing Plate himself), but you're not really using them to their full potential. A Barbarian can pretty readily equal a fighter's AC, your build just, well, doesn't.
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I've made a related blog post: https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2016/03/24/think-tank-how-long-can-you-s urvive/
You should probably stick with the monster creation guidelines rather than using a fire giant. The monster creation guidelines for damage are for all the creatures attacks per turn, assuming they all hit, and ignoring criticals. They are thus perfectly usable for EDV when combined with their average attack. You'll need to toss in, say, a 10% chance of a x2 crit or something like that, but that's not super hard.
Fire giants are also weird because their damage if all attacks hit is actually nearly double average for their level but their third attack is so low. This makes their damage disproportionately high vs. low AC.
This version can't account for DR, it's true, but I think most creatures average two or three attacks, and you can figure pretty well based on that.
Additionally, as you note, DR isn't a huge deal vs. most foes at the levels PCs get it.
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So should the expectations for ranged characters any different than melee? AC matters a lot less, and their damage is lesser per hit, but they should always be full attacking, right?
I'd argue that ranged enemies aren't uncommon enough to change the actual parameters of defense for a ranged character. Having, say, an Orange physical defense/survivability is less of a downside, but nothing in the guide mandates higher than that and Red is still a terrible idea.
And EDV is calculated the same way. Given that archer damage is at least as high as melee characters who are full attacking, not holding them to the same damage standards would be weird. I guess you can get by with less, but that gets a bit complicated for this sort of guide.
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I'm not the author but I would say that the benchmarks are the same for ranged characters. It's just a matter of priorities. You might be fine with orange defenses as a ranged character.
That said, I think there are a few things to consider:
1. AC matters less does not mean AC does not matter. Against enemies with ranged attacks or smart/mobile enemies with melee attacks, the archer will get attacked. So if you have an AC that can easily be hit by a mook, you should expect to die the next time you run into a goblin warband with 20 goblin archers and a bard. The 17 who are left after round 1 will all shoot you and if you don't have the AC to make 50-75% of them miss, it's good night archer. Likewise, the best way for the fire giant not to take a faceful of arrows every round is to be in your face, sunder your bow, then sunder you. If he can pull it off, he will.
2. I would say that your backup weapon strategy matters more to archers. Archers are very good in a lot of situations, but unlike melee attackers who tend to suffer from soft counters (mirror image, high AC, high damage coming back in return, fire shield, etc), the counters to archery tend to be hard counters. Fickle winds is "dispel or go home." Windwall, repel wood, etc are also hard counters to archery and if done properly. Lack of visibility and grapple are also closer to hard counters vs archery than they are vs melee. Odds are good that your archer will find himself forced to twiddle his thumbs or fight in melee at some point. I would try to make sure that your archer has melee options that are at least orange before buffing.
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2. I would say that your backup weapon strategy matters more to archers. Archers are very good in a lot of situations, but unlike melee attackers who tend to suffer from soft counters (mirror image, high AC, high damage coming back in return, fire shield, etc), the counters to archery tend to be hard counters. Fickle winds is "dispel or go home." Windwall, repel wood, etc are also hard counters to archery and if done properly. Lack of visibility and grapple are also closer to hard counters vs archery than they are vs melee. Odds are good that your archer will find himself forced to twiddle his thumbs or fight in melee at some point. I would try to make sure that your archer has melee options that are at least orange before buffing.
Archers should note the existence of the Silver Nocking Point. While not a perfect solution by any means, it's still quite affordable and gives you a fighting chance against some of the most easily available hard counters to archery.
I don't think the purpose if this article is to go over every possible build. It's more about seeing if the build you want to play can do it's job.
Yeah, I get that. :-)
All of that said, play a character you enjoy. Some people like to play the numbers game. Some don't. Let people play the way they want to.
And this too. It's obvious that some (a lot of) people enjoy the numbers game more than other aspects, and more power to 'em. I just think it's more fun to take a given character and try to play him, rather than tweaking the numbers to get a "better" one. <shrug> To each his own. :-)
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I don't think the purpose if this article is to go over every possible build. It's more about seeing if the build you want to play can do it's job.Yeah, I get that. :-)
All of that said, play a character you enjoy. Some people like to play the numbers game. Some don't. Let people play the way they want to.And this too. It's obvious that some (a lot of) people enjoy the numbers game more than other aspects, and more power to 'em. I just think it's more fun to take a given character and try to play him, rather than tweaking the numbers to get a "better" one. <shrug> To each his own. :-)
I suspect most people fall somewhere between the two extremes. You can think of this guide as a tool to check whether your fun/interesting character is likely to contribute to the party or not. If so, great! If not, you can play with the numbers a little and see if you can keep the fun but get the character to work.
Better to realize ahead of time "this isn't going to work" than to play for six months and suddenly realize, "Wow, my character is dead weight and now I've put all this effort into developing a personality and history that I'll have to discard or modify."
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Yeah, all discussion of hypothetical builds is purely a diagnostic tool for whether the benchmarks are reasonable.
The actual purpose of the guide is to take a preexisting character and figure out what they'll likely be good at, how good, and what their weaknesses are. And which of those weaknesses should maybe be worked on.
For example, a character whose only Red defense is their Fort Save might want to take Great Fortitude the next time they have a Feat free, or pick up a Con boosting item rather than something else. That doesn't necessarily change the basic build at all, it's just a useful bit of info as to how low you can afford to let your Fort Save go without taking steps.
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Discussing hypothetical builds is interesting, but is anyone else trying this with characters they've actually played? I feel like using "playtested" values says something about the actual usefulness of the benchmarks that theory doesn't, necessarily.
Survivability rating for my monkrager is hard to calculate thanks to Snake Fang, but if the AMCREL makes three attacks with all attacks dealing equal damage at high accuracy (+17), I get an average 32 AC against one attack and 19 against the rest, for an expected damage of 29.333. With 125 raging HP, and Raging Vitality leaving me alive until -20, I get almost 5 rounds of survivability for a Blue rating (on average being knocked out in the second attack of the 5th round).
Now let me try a character who I actually would describe as "barely viable."
He was an Inquisitor with a Bodyguard build. While he was defensively quite strong, his offense was a little weak - he did fine in routine encounters but had difficulty contributing against major bosses. Given that this was the most punishing campaign I'd ever played (there was a free Resurrection mechanic, so I wouldn't be surprised if the GM was aiming to kill at least one PC per boss fight), I would expect him to be just barely good enough in a game of typical difficulty.
Even assuming he's using Judgment entirely offensively and has Bane active, EDV is only 26.94, orange and not even close to green. Like my monkrager, this is at least a half-category lower than I'd expect given performance.
Survivability however is 3.92 rounds vs AMCREL assuming all attacks are made at equal, high accuracy - and that's assuming the Judgment is still set to offense. That sounds about right. Will save is green at +13, Fort almost green at +12, and Reflex is actually red at +6, though I don't remember that coming up a lot.
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I tried running my level 11 Snake Fang using Unchained Monk through the benchmarks yesterday. He was at the high end of Orange on attacks, high green on damage when using Power Attack, and 1 point away from green on AC. At that level, I carry a potion of Heroism, which would put him into green attack if I use it. He's green on attacks and low green on damage without Power Attack. I'm fairly sure he hits blue on damage with Power Attack in rounds where he spends a Ki for an extra attack and/or gets extra attacks from Snake Fang (He can total 10 attacks on a good round, 11 with Haste, all but 2 of them at full-BAB). I didn't bother to do that math. AC can hit Blue if he has Shield going and spends a Ki on +4 AC, or when he spends the Ki and is benefitting from Mobility. Unchained Monk was a huge boost to him when he moved over from Core/Qinggong after the book came out. Throwing Flying Kick into the mix with Unchained flurry and Full-BAB took him from middle of the road to being very effective. He tore through things in Sky Key Solution. His saves average +11, so a little below green, but he doesn't have a cloak or anything boosting them (he has a different shoulder slot item). He's about to start picking up Ioun stones for resistance bonuses, a lucky horseshoe, and an Ioun stone for the competence bonus. Eventually that will get him an extra +5 total (+9 once/day), but for more gold than the cloak would have been. He did take Iron Will when he converted over to Unchained, but it was still a net -2 to his Will save.
Anyway, I went through a decent amount of effort around 8th level to boost his attack rolls, because of Flurry of misses. At 9th he had a huge boost in effectiveness when he got Snake Fang.
I did not run the survivability test. Hit points was one of his weaker areas, though they also got a boost with Unchained. He put 4 Favored Class Bonuses into an extra Ki. I think I retrained to add 1 hit point somewhere along the line, and he retrained a wasted feat into Toughness somewhere around 5th level. I don't have the character in front of me, but I think that puts him around 122 HPs. With an AC that fluctuates between 31 and 43, I hope he can survive three rounds against a fire giant or whatever the level 11 equivalent metric is.
I don't usually even bother to use the Sense Motive roll as AC from Snake Style, unless it's a touch attack. Boosting AC for a Ki point is an immediate action now, so I can just do that if I'm about to eat a full round attack, and it applies to all of the attacks instead of just one. I think I'm only at +18 Sense Motive, so the best I'd do there is 38 anyway.
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Discussing hypothetical builds is interesting, but is anyone else trying this with characters they've actually played? I feel like using "playtested" values says something about the actual usefulness of the benchmarks that theory doesn't, necessarily.
I used it for my character in an upcoming Mummy's Mask game. Str-based Investigator (Empiricist) discussed quite a bit earlier. He's got Green attack and damage (almost Blue attack when using Heroism), Orange Fort Save, Green Reflex, Orange Will (Green with heroism or vs. illusions), and Red AC with no buffs going, but Orange with Mutagen, Green with that and Shield, and Blue if he buffs even more. He's also Blue in a full 10 skills, and Green in several more. His survivability varies with his AC, but is at least Orange.
I fully intend to check others as they come up. In fact, let's check my hypothetical Half-Orc Oracle of Lore 1/Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) X build. Which I intend to use in an AP some time.
At 8th, he's got a +17/+12 attack (7 Str + 7 BAB + 2 Divine Favor, +3 Furious weapon, -2 Power Attack) for 1d12+21 damage. That's Green EDV and attack. His AC is gonna be 26 (+8 Armor, +3 Cha, +2 Deflection, +3 Natural Armor, +2 Luck, -2 Rage) and thus Orange. So his survivability will be pretty good combined with DR and Barbarian HP. His Saves will be +10/15, +8/13, +9/12 (the latter numbers with superstition) which are Orange, Green vs. anything Superstition applies to. That sounds valid.
Both of those were made more or less without looking at the table, I just used it to confirm what to do with them.
How did your Monk... get shield?
I imagine UMD is involved.
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How did your Monk... get shield?
Cloak of the Hedge Wizard - Abjuration. Shield 1/day, Endure Elements 1/day (essentially always on), Resistsnce and Prestidigitation at will. I'll bring it out for the big fights. Cast as standard, swift to enter Snake Style, move up and provoke, likely still getting at least 1 Snake Fang attack. Move behind the enemy to provide a flank for whoever is next in initiative. With a 70 speed, losing the Standard isn't a huge deal in the first round. (Before the next question comes up, he has a PFS specific item off a chronicle sheet boosting his monk bonus speed to +40)
There's also the Cracked Vibrant Purple Ioun Stone, which can store 1 spell level. Either pay to have someone cast Shield into it or have the party Wizard/Sorcerer do it (best to carry a Pearl of Power and possibly Runestone of Power, if that's your strategy, so they can recover their spell). I do this on my ninja. Or just UMD a wand. You'll get table variation whether or not you can put a charge from the wand into the stone, so I stopped doing that.
My Warpriest/Oracle also has access to Shield (and Mirror Images) through the Ancient Lorekeeper archetype. There are lots of ways to get access to things not normal for your class.
Male angel-blooded aasimar (angelkin) bard (arcane duelist) 8 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Angels 21, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 80, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 7)
CG Medium outsider (native)
Init +13; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +5
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Defense
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AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 73 (8d8+30)
Fort +6, Ref +10, Will +6
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, negative energy 10, positive energy 10
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 longspear +13/+8 (1d8+9/×3)
Special Attacks bardic performance 22 rounds/day (move action; bladethirst, dirge of doom, distraction, fascinate [DC 18], inspire competence +3, inspire courage +3, rallying cry)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 8th; concentration +12)
. . 1/day—alter self
Bard (Arcane Duelist) Spells Known (CL 8th; concentration +12)
. . 3rd (3/day)—haste, summon monster III
. . 2nd (5/day)—gallant inspiration[APG] (DC 16), heroism, tongues, versatile weapon[APG] (DC 16)
. . 1st (5/day)—charm person (DC 15), feather fall, grease, silent image (DC 15), solid note[APG]
. . 0 (at will)—daze (DC 14), detect magic, mending, message, prestidigitation, read magic
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Statistics
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Str 21, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 18
Base Atk +6; CMB +11; CMD 23
Feats Arcane Strike, Combat Casting, Disruptive, Flagbearer[ISWG], Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Toughness
Traits accelerated drinker, adopted, warrior of old
Skills Acrobatics +12, Appraise +5, Bluff +12, Diplomacy +12, Heal +0, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Knowledge (geography) +5, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (nobility) +5, Knowledge (planes) +7, Linguistics +5, Perception +5, Perform (oratory) +17, Spellcraft +7, Use Magic Device +15; Racial Modifiers +2 Heal, +2 Knowledge (planes)
Languages Ancient Osiriani, Celestial, Common, Osiriani
SQ arcane bond - weapon, masterpieces (stone face[UM])
Other Gear +1 deathless lamellar (leather) armor[UC], +2 longspear, banner of the ancient kings, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +2, cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, feather step slippers[UE], headband of alluring charisma +2, masterwork tool, 150 gp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Bond - Weapon (1/day) At 5th level, an arcane duelist gains the arcane bond ability as a wizard, using a weapon as his bonded item, allowing him to cast any one additional spell that he knows once per day. He may not choose a familiar or other type of bonded item. He may
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Bardic Performance (move action, 22 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Disruptive +4 DC to cast defensively for those you threaten.
Energy Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Negative Energy (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Negative Energy attacks.
Energy Resistance, Positive Energy (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Positive Energy attacks.
Flagbearer Grant bonuses to allies who see your flag.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Stone Face Your antics can soften even the hardest visage.
Prerequisite: Perform (comedy) or Perform (oratory) 7 ranks.
Cost: Feat or 3rd-level bard spell known.
Effect: You tell an old and humorous tale about a woman who refused t
Here is a real PFS character of mine, he's straight bard with a longspear. (Sheet above doesn't contain consumables and sundries.)
Assuming flagbearer (doubled from banner) and inspire courage (move action) I suspect he hits green on his EDV without even casting haste, and will easily hit blue with enlarge and haste. I suspect his AC doesn't hit orange and neither will his reflex or fort.
Lets do the Math:
Attack Routine is +16/+11(x3) 1d8+22 alt
.8(26.5)+(.05*3*.8*26.5) = 24.40
.55(26.5)+(.05*3*.55*26.5) = 16.76
EDV = 41.16 Against 100hp CR 8 that's easily green and approaching Blue.
AC 17 is virtually worthless against expected attack of +15. Fort and Will Saves of +6 (Which is -12) are just shy of orange while the reflex save of +10 is orange and just shy of green. (Although Heroism which is frequently up, bumps the bad saves to orange and the good save to green)
If we add haste and enlarge person
.85(31)+(.05*3*.85*31)= 30.30x2 = 60.60
.60(31)+(.05*3*.60*31)= 21.39
EDV = 81.99
CR 8 has the advantage of having a nice 100 HP, meaning I have and EDV of 82% when buffed, which is pretty ludicrously high.
Additionally the +5 to hit/damage that he provides the whole party is icing on the cake, Hassam al-Rashid is clearly the bad-ass I want him to be. The crappy defenses are no surprise and the math confirms it.
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Yeah, I just spotted it. I forgot how crazy good that banner is. It's worth it just for doubling the bonus from Flagbearer, so I forget it does other stuff.
It's a nice build. I'm a little surprised with that AC that he's survived, but good tactics and the high Init can help avoid being ganged up on by heavy hitters.
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How do the Iconics hold up?
Almost nobody is ever better than Orange on anything but Save DC or EDV at 1st. So...first is probably a bad level to do this.
So, examining the 4th or 7th level versions seems more relevant. Let's do that. I'll examine both real quick. I'm gonna eyeball EDV, since that's more math than I want to do for around 30 characters. It should be close, though.
And, for the record, I expect most of them won't meet several benchmarks. They are not widely considered viably good in long-term play. I'll do the corebook classes now, and then the rest later. Spoilered for space.
4: Orange to-hit, Green EDV (verging on blue), Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Green Fort, Red Ref (by one point), Orange Will. Green Climb and Swim. Several Orange skills.
7: Green to-hit, Green EDV, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Green Fort, Red Ref, Red Will (Orange vs. fear). Green Climb and Swim. Several Orange skills.
So, she's actually pretty viable except for Saves. A Cloak of Resistance (+1 at 4th, +2 at 7th) or Superstition, and she'd meet all the benchmarks.
Lem:
4: Orange to-hit, Red EDV, Orange Save DCs, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP) and access to Invisibility, Orange Fort, Green Ref, Orange Will (Green with Heroism). Green Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Perform, and Stealth. Several Orange skills. Has Inspire Courage +1.
7: Orange to-hit, Red EDV, Orange Save DCs, Red AC (but Orange survivability due to HP) and access to Invisibility, Red Fort (Orange with Heroism), Orange Ref (Green with Heroism), Orange Will. Green Bluff, Diplomacy, a couple of Knowledges, and Perform. Several Orange skills. Has Haste and Inspire Courage +2.
Lem's offense is terrible, but he can manage on defense pretty well with Invisibility and (at 7th) Heroism. His buffing is...not great at 4th, but very solid at 7th. His social skills are pretty solid, too.
Kyra:
4: Orange to-hit, Red EDV (Orange with buffs), Orange Save DCs, Red AC (Orange with buffs, Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Red Ref, Green Will. Green Diplomacy and Heal. Orange Knowledge (Religion).
7: Red to-hit, Red EDV (both Orange with buffs), Orange Save DCs, Red AC (Orange survivability due to HP, maybe Green with buffs), Orange Fort, Red Ref, Green Will. Green Diplomacy and Heal. Orange Knowledge (Religion).
Kyra's kind of a heal-bot. As I'm sure people are aware. Her usefulness outside that is...dubious. She does provide lads of healing, though. And some Diplomacy.
Lini:
4: Red to-hit, Red EDV, Orange Save DCs, Red AC (Green survivability due to HP), Green Fort, Red Ref, Green Will. Green Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledges, Perception, and Survival. Her animal companion has Orange defenses (and Green Survivability and Reflex) if buffed (except Will Save, which is Red) and does Green EDV (possibly Blue when buffed).
7: Red to-hit, Red EDV, Orange Save DCs, Red AC (Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Red Ref, Green Will. Green Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledges, Perception, and Survival. Her animal companion has Orange defenses (and Green Survivability and Reflex) if buffed (except Will Save, which is Red...unless you really believe the typo and let it be +13) and does Orange EDV (Green if buffed).
So...Lini isn't great in combat personally, but her animal companion does alright if she buffs it. She's got some very nice skills and utility spells, too. And she can summon.
Valeros:
4: Orange to-hit, very low Green EDV (maybe Orange, I'd need to do math to be really sure), Orange AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Red Will (Orange vs. fear). Several Orange skills.
7: Green to-hit, very low Green EDV (maybe Orange, I'd need to do math to be really sure), Orange AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Red Will (Orange vs. fear). Green Climb, Swim, and Ride. Orange Knowledge.
Valeros has a bad Will Save (except vs. fear) and is...kinda bad at doing damage. At least, for a frontliner. Other than that, he's just very very mediocre.
Sajan:
4: Orange to-hit, Orange EDV, Red Save DC, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Green Ref, Orange Will. Green Acrobatics (blue for jumping), Climb, and Stealth. Several Orange skills.
7: Orange to-hit, Orange EDV, Red Save DC, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Green Ref, Orange Will (Green vs. enchantments). Green Acrobatics (blue for jumping), Climb, and Stealth. Several Orange skills.
Much like Valeros, Sajan's problem involves being mediocre at everything. Including actually doing damage. Making him...less than useful. At least his Will Save isn't crappy as well.
Seelah:
4: Orange to-hit (Green on Smite Evil), Orange EDV (Green on Smite Evil), Green AC (but Blue survivability due to HP and Lay on Hands), Green Fort, Orange Ref, Green Will. Green Diplomacy. Several Orange skills.
7: Orange to-hit (Green on Smite Evil), Orange EDV (Green on Smite Evil), Orange AC (but Blue survivability due to HP and Lay on Hands), Green Fort, Orange Ref, Green Will. Green Diplomacy. Several Orange skills.
Seelah's actually really solid. Her offense isn't great unless she's Smiting, but she can Smite, and her defenses are very good.
Harsk:
4: Orange to-hit, Red EDV (maybe hitting Orange against his Favored enemies, but I doubt it), Red Save DC, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Green Fort, Green Ref, Orange Will. Green Heal, Perception, Stealth, and Survival. Several Orange skills. Has an animal companion with Red everything.
7: Orange to-hit, Red EDV (maybe hitting Orange against his Favored enemies, but I doubt it), Red Save DC, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Green Fort, Green Ref, Orange Will. Green Heal, Perception, Stealth, and Survival. Several Orange skills. Has an animal companion with Red everything.
Harsk is utterly incapable of meaningfully participating in combat in an offensive fashion. Do not take Heavy Crossbows unless you have Crossbow Master and Deadly Aim at the least. Ever. His defenses aren't awful, but that really doesn't matter when you can't accomplish anything.
Merisiel:
4: Orange to-hit, Red EDV (Orange with Sneak Attack), Orange AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Green Ref, Red Will (Orange vs. enchantment). Green Acrobatics, Climb, Disable Device (Blue with Masterwork Tools), Escape Artist, Perception, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth. Several Orange skills.
7: Orange to-hit, Red EDV (Orange with Sneak Attack), Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Red Fort, Green Ref, Red Will (Orange vs. enchantment). Blue Acrobatics and Disable Device. Green Climb, Escape Artist, Perception, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth. Several Orange skills.
Merisiel has most of the same problems as Valeros, but at least has some real contributions to non-combat activities.
Seoni:
4: Red to-hit, Red EDV, (Orange EDV with Magic Missile, Green in both with Scorching Ray) Orange Save DCs (by one point), Orange AC (Green survivability due to HP), Red Fort, Red Ref, Orange Will. Green Bluff. Several Orange skills.
7: Red to-hit, Red EDV (or Green in both with Scorching Ray), Green Save DC, Orange AC (Green survivability due to HP), Red Fort, Red Ref, Orange Will. Green Bluff. Several Orange skills.
Seoni's another character who'd be basically viable with a Cloak of Resistance. And maybe ditching a Feat for Great Fortitude or a Trait for Resilient.
Ezren:
4: Red to-hit, Red EDV, (Orange EDV with his own Magic Missile, Green in both with Scorching Ray) Orange Save DCs (by one point), Red AC (Orange with Shield, Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Orange Will. Green Appraise, Linguistics, Spellcraft, and 4 Knowledge skills.
7: Red to-hit, Red EDV, (Green in both with Scorching Ray) Green Save DCs, Orange AC (Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Orange Will. Green Appraise, Fly, Linguistics, Spellcraft, and 4 Knowledge skills.
Ezren's just a viable character. Very solid.
Examining those, the AC benchmarks should definitely be lower. Not that those characters are necessarily optimal, or even viable long term, but many manage Green Survivability with Red AC. They tend towards Toughness and good HP in general, but still. I'd lower the necessary AC for all benchmarks by 2 or 3.
Short version:
Amiri and Seoni would hold up if you gave them Cloaks of Resistance or a Potion of Heroism (their Saves are a bit low, but they do okay otherwise).
Ezren and Seelah just hold up. Seelah technically only hits Green in offensive benchmarks when smiting, but that's not the end of the world given that most of her defense are Green and her Survivability is Blue. Ezren simply hits all benchmarks.
Lem's not bad at 7th level, when his buffing is actually worth something (he hits defensive benchmarks with Heroism, which he has, and that plus buffing is workable). Lini's animal companion holds up for a fight or two if she puts her spells all into buffing it.
Nobody else holds up too well (Kyra's defenses are adequate, so she works if you need a healbot. Let's not talk about her offense.). And nobody should ever play Harsk under any circumstances (not that this is news).
I'll probably do the rest of the Iconics...sometime. Probably not tonight. Just eyeballing them, I suspect the non-corebook ones do a bit better on average. Maybe with the exception of the UC ones.
I rarely have good AC on my characters, Hassam has fallen unconscious twice during his career, against dangerous foes he is most frequently attacking from 15-20 feet away with enlarge person. Looking at his ITS, he's drunk 20 potions of Enlarge Person over 13 adventures
Here is a different character of mine, Sue has been my go to character to play in specials recently. She's tons of fun to play, and gets to use her cool abilities over and over again over the course of a long special.
Female gnome champion of irori 3/cleric (crusader) of Irori 1/monk 3/paladin (hospitaler) 2 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 116, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 40)
LG Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 19, flat-footed 15 (+3 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 monk, +1 size, +3 Wis)
hp 89 (9 HD; 7d8+2d10+39)
Fort +19, Ref +14, Will +19; +2 vs. illusions, +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities defensive training, evasion
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +12/+5 (1d8+4 plus 1d6 acid plus 2d6) or
. . unarmed strike flurry of blows +11/+11/+6 (1d8+4 plus 1d6 acid plus 2d6)
Ranged or
. . mwk cold iron shuriken flurry of blows +11/+11/+6 (1 plus 1d6 acid) or
. . mwk cold iron shuriken +12/+7 (1 plus 1d6 acid)
Special Attacks channel positive energy 8/day (DC 15, 1d6), flurry of blows, hatred, smite chaos, smite evil 2/day (+5 attack and AC, +9 damage), stunning fist (4/day, DC 17), sweeping smite
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th; concentration +14)
. . 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound (DC 16), prestidigitation, speak with animals
Champion of Irori Spell-Like Abilities (CL 3rd; concentration +8)
. . At will—detect chaos
Paladin Spell-Like Abilities (CL 2nd; concentration +7)
. . At will—detect evil
Cleric (Crusader) Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +4)
. . 1st—comprehend languages[D], remove fear
. . 0 (at will)—guidance, mending
. . D Domain spell; Domain Knowledge (Memory subdomain)
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Statistics
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Str 5, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 21
Base Atk +7; CMB +2; CMD 21
Feats Bewildering Koan, Blind-fight, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monastic Legacy[UC], Piranha Strike, Stunning Fist, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Traits extremely fashionable, mizu ki hikari rebel
Skills Acrobatics +15, Appraise +5, Bluff +18, Diplomacy +10, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (engineering) +6, Knowledge (geography) +6, Knowledge (history) +6, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (nature) +6, Knowledge (nobility) +6, Knowledge (planes) +6, Knowledge (religion) +12, Perception +10, Sense Motive +7, Spellcraft +5, Survival +3 (+5 to avoid becoming lost); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Draconic, Gnome, Sylvan
SQ fast movement, gnome magic, ki pool (6 points), lay on hands 6/day (4d6), maneuver training, recall
Combat Gear deliquescent gloves[UE], potion of cure moderate wounds, wand of cure light wounds, wand of divine favor (45 charges), wand of mage armor (37 charges), alchemist's fire, bronze gong; Other Gear mwk cold iron shuriken (39), incandescent blue sphere ioun stone, agile fists, belt of incredible dexterity +2, bracers of the avenging knight[UE], cloak of resistance +1, cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, headband of alluring charisma +2, nexus crystal[MA], wayfinder[ISWG], monk's outfit, 150 gp
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Special Abilities
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Bewildering Koan Swift, use 1 ki, foe loses next action or you gain +2 dam for 1 rd on a Bluff chk.
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Cleric (Crusader) Domain (Memory)
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 1d6 (8/day, DC 15) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs. monsters of the Giant subtype.
Deflect Arrows (1/round) While have an empty hand, negate one ranged weapon hit you are aware of (unless from a massive weapon).
Detect Chaos (At will) (Sp) You can use Detect Chaos at will (as the spell).
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+10 ft.) The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +6/+6/+1 (Ex) As full-rd action, higher BAB and combo unarmed/monk wep as if two-weapon fighting.
Gnome Magic Add 1 to the DCs of any saving throws to resist illusion spells cast.
Hatred +1 Gain a bonus to attack vs. goblinoid/reptilian humanoids.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Pool (6/day) (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Lay on Hands (4d6 hit points, 6/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Piranha Strike -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Recall (+3, 6/day) (Su) Touched creature can retry a failed knowledge check with a +3 bonus
Smite Chaos (Su) +5 to hit, +5 to damage, +5 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Smite Evil (2/day) (Su) +5 to hit, +9 to damage, +5 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Stunning Fist (4/day, DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist Helper This is a dummy ability to add an extra entry for the stunning fist feat in another section of the statblock (since it is shown with a different name in the two places, we can't use sbName).
Sweeping Smite (Ex) As standard action, use smite against extra target if first attack hits.[/ooc]
I suspect Sue's offense is sub orange while not smiting, but will get into green while using ki and smiting (there is plenty of ki from Bronze Gong Channel shenanigans)
Saves are likely blue for fort/will but "only" green for reflex. AC will probably be unexciting, I think I value AC a lot less than LPM.
Math on EDV...
Flurry with Ki is +11/+11/+11/+6 for 13 average damage a hit.
.45(13)+(.05*2*.45*13) = 6.435x3 = 19.305
.20(13)+(.05*2*.20*13) = 2.86
Total = 22.17 Orange EDV = ~18.98
Holy crap, I made Orange, I did have to use one of my ~15 ki to do so, I am sub orange when not using any limited resources.
When Smiting and using Pirhanna Strike
.60(25)+(.05*2*.60*25) = 16.5x3 = 49.5
.35(25)+(.05*2*.35*25) = 9.625
Total EDV 59.125
Barely into Blue, I knew Smite would make a big difference, but I didn't realize quite how huge.
Saves are as expected.
Sue can instead use her ki to power Bewlidering Koan, although I generally limit its use. She can also smite chaos instead of evil and has various monk goodies and can allow allies to reroll knowledge checks with bonuses.
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Okay, breakdowns of more Iconics
4: Green or Blue to-hit (actually only +10, but vs. touch AC), Red EDV (almost Orange), Orange AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Orange Will. Green Sleight of Hand. Several Orange skills.
7: Green or Blue to-hit (actually only +10, but vs. touch AC), Orange EDV, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Green Ref, Orange Will. Green Sleight of Hand. Several Orange skills.
Yeouch. No Rapid Shot or Deadly aim on a ranged character. That's almost as bad as Harsk.
Reiko
4: Orange to-hit, Red EDV (Orange with Sneak Attack), Red AC (Green defense with Vanishing Trick, Orange survivability due to HP, up to Green when Vanishing Trick is up), Red Fort, Orange Ref, Red Will. Green Acrobatics, Bluff, Disguise, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, and Use Magic Device. Several Orange skills.
7: Orange to-hit, Red EDV (Orange with Sneak Attack), Red AC (Green defense with Vanishing Trick, Orange survivability due to HP, up to Green when Vanishing Trick is up), Red Fort, Green Ref, Red Will. Green Acrobatics, Bluff, Disguise, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, and Use Magic Device. Several Orange skills.
Okay...that's pretty awful. Mediocre defenses at best and terrible offense. The skills are actually good, but oh sweet lord the price is too high.
Hayato:
4: Orange to-hit, Orange EDV (Green with Challenge), Orange AC (Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Red Ref, Red Will. Green Sense Motive. Several Orange skills. His animal companion has straight Orange defenses (except AC, which is Red) and very low Orange EDV.
7: Orange to-hit, Orange EDV (Green with Challenge), Red AC (Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Red Ref, Orange Will. Green Sense Motive. Several Orange skills. His animal companion has straight Orange defenses (except AC, which is Red) and Red EDV.
Hayato...does okay, I guess. He does about as well as Seelah offensively, anyway. Sadly, he lacks her defensive advantages. And indeed is actively bad at defenses.
So...of those, Hayato is vaguely relevant. The other two are actively bad. Don't use these ones, folks.
4: Red to-hit, Red EDV (Green EDV with Magic Missiles from staff), Orange Save DC (Green if you use Arcane Reservoir), Orange AC (but Green survivability due to HP, can go to Blue survivability with Mirror Image), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Orange Will. Green Linguistics, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device. Several Orange skills (including all Knowledges).
7: Red to-hit, Red EDV (Green EDV with Scorching Ray from Staff), Orange Save DC (Green using Potent Magic on Fireball), Orange AC (but Green survivability due to HP, can go to Blue survivability with Mirror Image), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Orange Will. Green Fly, Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device. Several Orange skills (including all Knowledges).
Enora hits all of her benchmarks if you use her right. Solid build.
Crowe:
4: Orange to-hit, Blue EDV, Orange AC (but Blue survivability due to HP), Green Fort, Red Ref, Orange Will. Several Orange skills.
7: Orange to-hit, High Green EDV (goes to Blue with Enlarge Person), Red Save DC, Red AC (but Blue survivability due to HP, which also goes up from Mirror Image), Green Fort, Red Ref, Orange Will. Green Intimidate. Several Orange skills.
Crowe is great. Well built, does what he's supposed to. His Reflex is one point in the Red, but that's the extent of his real weaknesses.
Kess:
4: Orange to-hit, Green EDV (might need to use Martial Felxibility to technically reach this point), Orange AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Red Will (Orange vs. charms and compulsions, Green if you go by the typo). Green Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim. Several Orange skills.
7: Green to-hit, Green EDV (can probably use Martial Felxibility to get to Blue), Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Red Will (Orange vs. charms and compulsions). Green Acrobatics. Several Orange skills.
Another perfectly effective character. Her Will is one point low...but not vs. charms or compulsions, and she has no other real weaknesses.
Adowyn:
4: Orange to-hit, Orange EDV (Green with Gravity Bow, or counting companion), Orange Save DC, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Green Ref, Orange Will. Green Perception, Stealth, and Survival. Several Orange skills. Her Animal Companion has a Red Will Save, AC, and EDV, and Orange everything else. Their damage together pushes her well into Green for EDV, though.
7: Orange to-hit, Green EDV (Blue when Wounded Paw Gambit and buffs and companion are factored in), Red Save DC, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Green Ref, Orange Will. Green Perception, Stealth, and Survival. Several Orange skills. Her Animal Companion has a Red Will Save and AC and Orange everything else. Their damage together plus her buffs pushes her well into Blue for EDV.
And again, no real weaknesses. Works well.
Quinn:
4: Orange to-hit (Green with buffing), Red EDV (Green with buffing), Green AC (Blue survivability due to HP, less without buffs), Red Fort (Orange vs. poisons), Orange Ref, Orange Will (Green vs. being forced to break the law). Green Craft, Disable Device, Linguistics, and all Knowledge Skills. A whole lot of Orange skills (most of which become Green with Inspiration).
7: Orange to-hit (Green with buffing), Red EDV (Orange with buffing, Green with Wand of Scorching Ray), Green AC (Blue survivability due to HP, less without buffs), Red Fort (Orange vs. poisons), Orange Ref, Orange Will (Green vs. being forced to break the law). Green Disable Device, Linguistics, Perception, Spellcraft, and all Knowledge Skills. A whole lot of Orange skills (most of which become Green with Inspiration).
And again. Quinn is one point low on Fort Saves, and needs a fair number of buffs to really be Green in physical combat EDV, but he's very solid for the most part. And amazing at skills.
Shardra:
4: Red to-hit, Red EDV, Orange Save DC (Green if she follows Evil Eye with something), Red AC (Orange with Barkskin, but Green survivability due to HP, Blue survivability with buffs), Orange Fort (Green vs. spells or spell-like abilities), Red Ref (Orange vs. spells or spell-like abilities), Green Will (Blue vs. spells or spell-like abilities). Green Diplomacy and Survival. Green Perception and Knowledges with Heightened Awareness. Several Orange skills.
7: Red to-hit, Red EDV, Orange Save DC (Green if she follows Evil Eye with something), Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP, Blue survivability with buffs), Orange Fort (Green vs. spells or spell-like abilities), Red Ref (Orange vs. spells or spell-like abilities), Green Will (Blue vs. spells or spell-like abilities). Green Diplomacy, Perception, Spellcraft, and Survival. Some Green Knowledges with Heightened Awareness. Several Orange skills.
Shardra's a buffer, debuffer, and healer rather than doing damage, but her defenses are pretty good, and she's actually good at her job. Quite solid. Her Reflex is technically awful, but Steel Soul makes that almost a moot point.
Hakon:
4: Orange to-hit, Green EDV (counting Raging song and maybe Heroism), Orange Save DC, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort (Green with Heroism or Superstition), Orange Ref (Green with Superstition), Orange Will. Green Bluff, Perform, and Sense Motive. Quite a few Orange skills (including all Knowledges).
7: Orange to-hit, Orange EDV (Green counting Raging song, Heroism or Good Hope, and Haste), Red Save DC, Red AC (but Orange survivability due to HP, Blue with Mirror Image), Orange Fort (Green with Superstition), Orange Ref (Green with Heroism/Good Hope and Superstition), Orange Will (Green with Heroism/Good Hope and Superstition). Blue Diplomacy, Handle Animal, and Perform. Green Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. Quite a few Orange skills (including all Knowledges).
Hakon manages to be a very solid buff character with no real defensive weaknesses and also decent melee damage for a frontliner. And have some Blue skills. Very solid.
Zadim:
4: Orange to-hit, Orange EDV (Green with Sneak Attack), Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Orange Will. Green Acrobatics, Climb, Stealth, and Swim. Several Orange skills.
7: Green to-hit, Green EDV (Blue with Sneak Attack), Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Red Will (by 1 point). Green Acrobatics and Stealth. Green Knowledge (Local), Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival with Studied Target and/or Tracking. Several Orange skills.
Zadim's Will Save is one point low at 7th. Other than that, he's great. Green to Blue offense, decent defenses. Very nice. He does have the distinction of being the only character from the ACG with a low defense and nothing to compensate for it.
Jirelle:
4: Green to-hit, Orange EDV (Green if using an AoO or Riposte), Green AC (but Blue survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Green Ref, Orange Will (Green vs. charms and compulsions). Green Perception. Green Acrobatics and Ride with Derring Do. Several Orange skills.
7: Green to-hit (Blue vs. humans), Green EDV (Maybe Blue if using an AoO or Riposte, definitely Blue vs. humans), Orange AC (one point from Green, Blue survivability due to HP and Parry), Red Fort (Orange with Charmed Life), Green Ref (Blue with Charmed Life), Orange Will (Green vs. charms and compulsions). Green Perception. Green Acrobatics and Ride with Derring Do. Several Orange skills.
So, that's pretty solid. At 4th, her offense is kinda low unless she's burning Panache, but not that bad, and her defenses are solid. At 7th, her Fort is low, but only by one point, and she does have Charmed Life.
Maybe the weakest Iconic in the AGC (probably due to a lack of Fencing Grace as much as anything), since all she does is damage, and that only goes as high as many others conditionally, but still pretty solid.
Oloch:
4: Orange to-hit (Green with buffs), Green EDV (Blue with buffs), Orange Save DC, Orange AC (Green with Shield of Faith, but Blue survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Red Ref, Orange Will. Several Orange skills.
7: Green to-hit, Green EDV, Red Save DC, Red AC (Orange with Shield of Faith, but Blue survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Red Ref, Orange Will. Blue Intimidate. Several Orange skills.
Oloch's Reflex is the worst Save of anyone in the ACG. Other than that, he's a solid melee bruiser. Not much else to say, really.
So...all of those are Red in one defensive category at most (not counting AC, which, as noted, should likely have its benchmarks lowered), and usually by no more than a point (Shardra and Oloch's Reflex are the only Save worse than one point below Orange, and that's not counting Shardra's Steel Soul in her case). All have a Green offense, too (it's conditional in several cases, but not unworkable). And several actually hit Blue offense when they have all their tricks working.
So...those Iconics are good. Use those if you need to use an Iconic in PFS.
Occult Adventures Classes will be forthcoming at some point. I'd expect them to be on par with the ACG ones.
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Okay, Occult Adventures Iconics it is. Having eyeballed them, I expect them to be on par with the ACG ones (ie: viable).
4: Green to-hit (Only +9, but vs. Touch AC), Green EDV (possibly only due to Burning Infusion), Orange Save DC (Green when they're on fire), Red AC (but Blue survivability due to HP), Green Fort, Green Ref, Red Will (Orange vs. fear). Green Acrobatics and Stealth. Several Orange skills.
7: Green or Blue to-hit (Only +12, but vs. Touch AC), Green EDV (Blue with Blue Flame Blast), Orange Save DC (Green when they're on fire), Orange AC (but Blue survivability due to HP), Green Fort, Green Ref, Red Will (Orange vs. fear). Green Acrobatics and Stealth. Several Orange skills.
Yoon's got a bad will Save, but only by a point, and can't deal damage that isn't fire (making her screwed vs. fire immune things), but she's pretty solid aside from that.
Erasmus:
4: Green to-hit, Orange EDV (almost Green), Red Save DC, Orange AC (but Blue survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Orange Will (any could be Green with Spirit Surge). Green Use Magic Device. Several Orange skills. Gives +2 weapon damage to all other PCs.
7: Green to-hit, Green EDV (Blue with Haste or vs. humans), Red Save DC, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort (Green with Heroism or spirit surge), Orange Ref (Green with Haste, Heroism, or spirit surge), Orange Will (Green with spirit surge). Green Diplomacy, Perception, and Use Magic Device. Several Orange skills. Gives +2 weapon damage to all other PCs.
At 4th, Erasmus's attacks are a bit mediocre, but he comes into his own at 7th. Very solid then.
Meligaster:
4: Red to-hit, Red EDV, Orange Save DC (Green with Hypnotic Stare), Red AC (but Blue survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Green Ref, Green Will (Blue vs. fear). Green Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Stealth, and Use Magic Device. Several Orange skills.
7: Red to-hit, Red EDV, Orange Save DC (Green with Hypnotic Stare), Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP, Blue for a few rounds with Mesmeric Mirror), Orange Fort, Green Ref, Green Will (Blue vs. fear). Blue Bluff. Green Diplomacy, Intimidate, Stealth, and Use Magic Device. Several Orange skills.
Meligaster is very solid, though even with psychic inception (which he only has at 7th) he'll have issues with creatures immune to mental effects (he lacks any good backup plan).
Mavaro:
4: Orange to-hit (Green with Bane), Orange EDV (Green with Bane, or something like Lead Blades + Flaming), Orange Save DC, Orange AC (but Blue survivability due to HP), Green Fort, Orange Ref, Green Will. Green Use Magic Device and lots of Knowledge skills. Several Orange skills.
7: Orange to-hit (Green with Bane), Red EDV (Orange with Bane, or something like Lead Blades + Flaming, Green with Haste as well), Orange Save DC, Red AC (but Orange survivability due to HP, Green with False Life), Orange Fort, Red Ref, Orange Will (Green vs. emotions). Green Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Perception, and Use Magic Device. Several Orange skills (including many Knowledge skills).
Mavaro is quite solid when he's using tricks, as you'd expect. The 7th level version has a low Reflex Save, but with Resist Energy that's not the end of the world.
Rivani:
4: Red to-hit, Red EDV, Orange Save DC, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Orange Will. Green Perception, Spellcraft, and lots of Knowledge skills. Several Orange skills.
7: Red to-hit, Red EDV, Orange Save DC, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Orange Ref, Orange Will. Green Appraise, Perception, Spellcraft, and lots of Knowledge skills. Several Orange skills.
Rivani's Save DCs are a bit anemic (being one below Green), as is her AC. Making her likely the weakest of the OA Iconics.
Estra:
4: Red to-hit, Red EDV, Orange Save DC, Red AC (but Green survivability due to HP), Orange Fort, Red Ref, Green Will. Green Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device. Diplomacy and Sense Motive go to Blue when her Phantasm isn't manifested. Several Orange skills. Her Phantasm has Red Fort, AC and attack, and Orange at everything else (including survivability). If someone attacks her, it's attacks improve almost to Orange, and the two of them together probably manage an Orange EDV.
7: Red to-hit, Red EDV, Red Save DC, Red AC (Orange when her Phantasm uses Bodyguard, and Green survivability due to HP), Green Fort, Orange Ref, Green Will. Green Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device. Diplomacy and Sense Motive go to Blue when her Phantasm isn't manifested. Several Orange skills. Her Phantasm has Red attack and EDV, and is Orange at everything else (except survivabilty, which is Green, as is Will vs. enchantments). If someone attacks her, it's attacks improve almost to Orange, and the two of them together probably manage an Orange attack (especially with Spiritual Weapon).
Summary: Not quite as effective as the ACG Iconics, the OA Iconics are about on par defensively (ie: some are one point low in a particular Save, but they're pretty good), but less impressive offensively (a couple have Green offense that isn't always applicable and no backup, and some only manage Orange offense, especially at 4th level).
All are still way more viable than most of the corebook Iconics.
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Looking back over that, I screwed up on the pre-OA stuff slightly. Many of those survivability numbers are too low. I was thinking of retaining consciousness, but looking at the post, if living is all that's needed, I undershot. Mostly on the 4th level versions.
Here's the revised version:
Lem has Green survivability at 7th.
Lini has Orange survivability at 7th.
Valeros has Blue survivability at 7th.
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Thanks, that's interesting.
They are not widely considered viably good in long-term play.
What do you mean by that? I know that the iconics are generally underpowered by board standards but I was under the impression that these characters are in practice used in PFS. That suggests to me that while they're not "good" most of them are at least "viable."
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Thanks, that's interesting.
No problem. I'm always happy to be of assistance. :)
And I found it quite interesting as well. I must admit I was not expecting the number of Blue survivability numbers I got. Has to do with low levels, FCB in HP, and Toughness being a popular Feat among the Iconics, I suppose.
What do you mean by that? I know that the iconics are generally underpowered by board standards but I was under the impression that these characters are in practice used in PFS. That suggests to me that while they're not "good" most of them are at least "viable."
They see use in PFS...but that doesn't necessarily make them viable.
I don't actually play PFS, but I drop by the PFS boards occasionally, and based on what I've seen there most PFS players would strongly argue that nobody should ever play, say, Harsk or Reiko. Doing so is allowed, but widely considered a terrible idea that will not end well for anyone involved.
Additionally, the Iconics are not played over long periods of time in PFS. They are played for individual sessions where you lack a character of the appropriate tier or similar situations. They are not your character, are not played long-term, and if they die there's little cost to you. All that makes their long-term viability less of a factor.
But really, I was partially wrong. The ACG Iconics are actually very good for the most part, and the OA ones pretty solid too. As are Seelah and Ezren.
It's the rest that are...not great. Especially Harsk and Reiko. And maybe Lirianne.
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Harsk is... unfortunate. But he (and Reiko and maybe Lirianne) appear to be outliers on the low end of the playability spectrum.
For the rest, I think their "disposability" should only lower our expectations for defensive benchmarks. I might not care if Zadim dies on me, but if I'm not at least marginally competent in combat I'll feel frustrated and bored. So if the iconics are playable in PFS (even if not ideal) I think they're a good set-point for our minimum offensive benchmarks.
And I do find it notable that not just some but most of these characters have Orange to-hit, including the ACG iconics, and that many of them including full-BAB Seelah and Zadim only have Green EDV when using situational effects (eg Smite, Sneak Attack).
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Harsk is... unfortunate. But he (and Reiko and maybe Lirianne) appear to be outliers on the low end of the playability spectrum.
Well, yes. But they aren't the only ones with a bad rep.
For the rest, I think their "disposability" should only lower our expectations for defensive benchmarks. I might not care if Zadim dies on me, but if I'm not at least marginally competent in combat I'll feel frustrated and bored. So if the iconics are playable in PFS (even if not ideal) I think they're a good set-point for our minimum offensive benchmarks.
Very few of the corebook Iconics are considered viable/much fun to play for precisely this reason. I've heard a lot of comments on the PFS forums about Valeros sucking, just for instance, and he has Orange attacks.
And I do find it notable that not just some but most of these characters have Orange to-hit, including the ACG iconics, and that many of them including full-BAB Seelah and Zadim only have Green EDV when using situational effects (eg Smite, Sneak Attack).
That's true. But EDV has been stated to be the relevant benchmark, Green is the goal, and most of those are tactics or abilities that can be used every fight, rather than those with meaningfully limited uses. Seelah's an exception in that regard but makes up for it defensively.
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The big takeaways from this, for me, were that Mark Seifter (who built the ACG Iconics) is actually super good at doing that in a way that'll be effective and fun, and that AC is 2 or 3 points too high by the current guidelines (given that people manage Green or Blue survivability quite well with ACs that are 1-3 points into Red...they do so with good HP, but still, I'd expect it to be Orange if it's that good).
I fairly like this guide. Especially for people that are trying to see if their concept is likely to work when they don't have the experience to just 'look it over' and be able to tell.
I would quibble a little bit on some of the particular bench marks. I think the offensive benchmarks are set a bit higher than is really needed. I've seen very offense oriented characters that don't meet those and yet perform quite admirably.
I think the saving throw benchmarks are a bit low. I have seen quite a few characters that meet the orange save benchmarks, yet the party seems to spend an inordinate amount of time and/or effort dealing with the fact that those characters seem to 'always' be under some devastating condition due to a failed save.
It is also a point to remember that it doesn't deal well with some of the non-standard build types.
I've seen some casters that are starting to rely on ray, non-save, or partial effect spells. They don't have a high casting stat or spell focus, yet it is mostly irrelevant.
Some of the combat maneuver and AoO builds don't really fit some of those numbers well.
Also some builds are (especially the buff caster, summoner, or halfling aid another builds) would look fairly worthless. yet are actually quite valuable.
Recently I have been hearing a number of people expressing the opinion that AC is almost a meaningless stat. The point is surviving the hits anyway, miss chance, invisibility, stoneskin, illusions, first strike, etc ...
For example, I have a level 12 sorc that is just starting Eyes of the Ten. His AC and HP are very much in the red. He has died twice in his career, but neither were situations where AC or hit points would have made any difference no matter how high.
They are not widely considered viably good in long-term play.What do you mean by that? I know that the iconics are generally underpowered by board standards but I was under the impression that these characters are in practice used in PFS. That suggests to me that while they're not "good" most of them are at least "viable."
I would say they are at best, barely viable for PFS.
Several times I've seen people try some of the moderately tough scenarios with a table full of pregens, just to see what happens. It is extremely difficult without exceptionally skilled players that are clever and able to get every little bit of capability out of the pregen builds.I would also posit (from my personal experience) isn't that they are lousy at their primary role. They are halfway decent. It is that they have nothing else. If their primary shtick doesn't work they got nothing else to do. They are kinda one trick ponies without the super effectiveness at their one trick.
On the other hand using a pregen to fill a particular gap in the table is fine.
We don't have anyone even able to UMD a cure wand. Taking the pregen cleric will work fine.
Don't have a single melee character? Any of the melee pregens will do acceptable work while all the good ranged builds slaughter the opposition.
Etc...
Out of curiosity, how would one fix these "not viable" iconics? If they are fixable.
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Out of curiosity, how would one fix these "not viable" iconics? If they are fixable.
Depends.
Amiri and Seoni would be fine if you switched some items and gave them Cloaks of Resistance. Saves are their only real problem, and by 2 points or less.
Valeros would be a lot better with a pair of short swords and his weapon specific Feats switched appropriately, and needs either a Cloak of Resistance or Iron Will.
Harsk...should be using a Light Crossbow and have Rapid Shot (and later Deadly Aim). He'd maybe be okay then. Lirianne is in a similar situation (only I'm sure she'd be okay with a better Feat selection).
Other people (Reiko, for example) would need to be rebuilt from the ground up.
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In defence of Seelah: the PFS adventure format means that usually, smiting 1-3 times per day will actually suffice to get you through all the difficult encounters of that day.
As for Kyra: she's got a double identity. There's Kyra with standard prepared spells, including a lot of healing spells (why?! spontaneous casting is a thing), and then there's Kyra Next Day, when you have a level 1/4/7 cleric selecting spells from the whole cleric list. And since there aren't any colossal flaws in her build, she can still be a high-scoring contributor to a party despite not having impressive save DCs or EDV, simply by leaning on the spells that don't require enemy saving throws. Which the cleric list has plenty of.
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That said, I agree the ACG iconics are a world of difference because all of them are good at their primary job and there are few to no survivability problems.
Thanks, that's interesting.
They are not widely considered viably good in long-term play.What do you mean by that? I know that the iconics are generally underpowered by board standards but I was under the impression that these characters are in practice used in PFS. That suggests to me that while they're not "good" most of them are at least "viable."
I think part of it is also that many of them generally can't deal with DR, swarms, or other special defenses. You don't find special materials on them. Fly is not common. Almost all lack a secondary role. For many of these things it can be fixed with some changes to their equipment -- if only they had the money.