Rule Clarification on Paladin Divine Grace


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

So i know this has been brought up a few times on the forums but I've never really found a definitive answer on the matter:

1) Is the Paladin's Divine Grace untyped or is it considered Charisma to saves? I'm assuming the FAQ supercedes the printed material but i'd like to make sure because...

a) Lore Oracle dip for Sidestep replaces dex with charisma. Would this stack with Divine Grace?

b) Bestow Grace gives a sacred bonus to saves equal to your charisma. If a paladin drank a a potion of Bestow Grace would that stack?

Bonus:
Would Dodging Panache from the swashbuckler (Dodge bonus equal to Cha to AC) stack with the Lore Oracle's Sidestep (Cha instead of Dex to AC)

TL;DR Is Paladin divine grace untyped or a stat bonus? Do abilities that give your stat as a specific type of bonus, aka dodge, stack with other abilities that add your stat flatly to the same thing?


Also, does it stack with CHA to Fort saves from Knight of the Sepulcher?


It's a stat bonus so anything that just says add your charisma modifier without referencing a bonus type won't stack.

Sovereign Court

So by that mindset a potion of Bestow Grace would stack with Divine Grace because its a Sacred Bonus, while Sidestep would not.

Dodging Panache and Sidestep would stack as well correct?


Yes Bestow Grace works because it is not a charisma bonus, but an insight bonus that is equal to your charisma bonus.


Based on the FAQ, the source for an untyped bonus tied to an attribute score is both the particular rules element that grants it, as well as the attribute itself. For instance, you get an untyped bonus to damage equal to your Strength modifier based on the default combat rules so the source is, simultaneously, the default combat rules as well as your Strength score. If you have some ability that lets you add your Dexterity modifier, as an untyped bonus, to your damage, then you'd get both Strength and Dexterity added to damage. However, if you had that as well as an ability that replaces Strength with Dexterity, it's "shifting" the source from Str to Dex so you can't add Dex once as a replacement for Str, then again as a tack-on bonus. However, if the tack-on bonus Dex were not untyped, then it no longer considers your Dex score as one of the sources of the bonus. To illustrate:

Normal: Damage = 1d8 + Str
Ability A adds Dex to damage: Damage = 1d8 + Str + Dex
Ability B adds Dex in place of Str: Damage = 1d8 + Dex
Abilities A + B: Damage = 1d8 + Dex(ability A) + Dex(ability B) (same source doesn't stack)
Ability C adds Dex to damage as competence bonus: 1d8 + Str + Dex{competence}(ability C)
Abilities B + C: Damage = 1d8 + Dex(ability B) + Dex{competence}(ability C)
Abilities A + C: Damage = 1d8 + Str + Dex(ability A) + Dex{competence}(ability C)

So, Replace Dex with Cha won't stack with +Cha(untyped), but it will stack with +Cha(typed). As a side note, this ruling is absolutely ludicrous and really ought to be reversed.


Quote:
No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.

That reads to me that you can add that your charisma charisma modifier, and <insert bonus type> equal to your charisma modifier.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Imhrail wrote:

1) Is the Paladin's Divine Grace untyped or is it considered Charisma to saves?

a) Lore Oracle dip for Sidestep replaces dex with charisma. Would this stack with Divine Grace?

b) Bestow Grace gives a sacred bonus to saves equal to your charisma. If a paladin drank a a potion of Bestow Grace would that stack?

Bonus:
Would Dodging Panache from the swashbuckler (Dodge bonus equal to Cha to AC) stack with the Lore Oracle's Sidestep (Cha instead of Dex to AC)

1) untyped Cha to AC, which is best thought as typed Cha to AC.

a) Cha to AC doesn't stack with Cha to AC, so no.

b) Sacred bonus of your CHA to AC stacks with Cha to AC, so yes.

Bonus) Dodge bonus to AC stacks with Cha to AC.


James Risner wrote:
Bonus) Dodge bonus to AC stacks with Cha to AC.

But be careful about trying to stack it with Osyluth Guile.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

My Self wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Bonus) Dodge bonus to AC stacks with Cha to AC.
But be careful about trying to stack it with Osyluth Guile.

Yea that would be the same as untyped, I think. Two dodge bonuses from the same stat shouldn't stack. Despite dodge bonuses always stacking.

YMMV, Expect table variance.

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