Using Feather Fall to counter a readied action.

[GM Snowe]

PC Wizard is notorious for winning initiative and readying an action for the NPC caster to cast a spell and deal some sort of direct damage to them (Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Dispel...etc.)

Evil NPC Wizard Boss has been scrying on PCs for awhile and is aware of this tactic.

Let's assume init looks like this.

30 PC Wizard
22 Other guy
21 Other other guy
18 Bob Dole
15 Lou Diamond Phillips
12 Evil NPC Wizard Boss Guy

On 30, PC Wizard goes "I'm going to ready an action for Evil NPC Wizard Boss Guy to cast a spell"

Immediately afterwords, Evil NPC Wizard Boss Guy says "Ok, I'm casting feather fall as an immediate action."

Does PC Wizard have to take his readied action, leaving evil NPC to then cast a better spell on his own turn without having to worry about interference?

What would PC Wizards initiative change to? The rules written for readying an action don't seem to take into account countering an immediate action.

What do you guys think?

[CampinCarl9127]

Yes you can ready for an immediate action.

Here's how you should handle this. Have your wizard roll a spellcraft check to identify what spell the enemy caster is casting. Then let him do whatever he wants. If he identifies it he may just ignore it, or he may waste his readied action. Just let it play out.

But yes, you can ready for basically any clause, including an immediate action.

[GM Snowe]

Ah there we go. Boils down to the spellcraft check. I know theres some ways to obscure the spell and make the sc difficulty harder.

But for some reason I had it in my head that he had to take it for the first cast, not hold off for the second. Roger! Thanks for the input

[Ascalaphus]

You can ready for an immediate action.

What is far more unclear is if your readied action only goes off on the first situation that meets the specified condition. If you decide not to cast a spell to interrupt the Feather Fall (because who cares) is your action still readied?

Common practice in my area is that only the first time the conditions are met triggers the action, but that's been called into question before.

Quote:

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. (...)

What if you don't take your action the first time the condition comes up (Feather Fall); can you still do it the second time it comes up (Fireball)? Strict reading of the rule above doesn't prohibit it, but that is the tradition.

My advice: pick an interpretation that makes sense to you, and use it consistently on PCs and NPCs alike.

[Jeff Merola]

For making it harder for the guy to identify what's being cast, remember that spellcraft is modified by anything that modifies perception:

Quote:

Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors.

But yeah, readied actions don't have to be used in response to any particular trigger, and the guy who readies could theoretically ignore dozens of triggers before taking the readied action (assuming the trigger was something that could happen dozens of times in one round).

[dragonhunterq]

Unless he is careless enough to specify "I ready to counter the first spell the Evil NPC Wizard Boss Guy casts" he should probably be ok.

[Byakko]

While it's true that it's not called out clearly in the rules, we've always played it as the first time the criteria for the ready come up you must choose to either take the readied action or forfeit it.

Otherwise, you're going to get silly stuff like this:
"I ready to cast magic missile at a creature when they take an action."

Then just wait till you see an opportune action to interrupt.

[Claxon]

I've always played it as you have to do it when the readied action condition is met or you forego your readied action.

In this case he readies for "when the other spell caster casts a spell". The other spell caster knows this is common and casts feather fall, which meets the condition. The go-first wizard must either cast his spell then, or his readied action is done.

[BigDTBone]

Claxon wrote:

I've always played it as you have to do it when the readied action condition is met or you forego your readied action.

In this case he readies for "when the other spell caster casts a spell". The other spell caster knows this is common and casts feather fall, which meets the condition. The go-first wizard must either cast his spell then, or his readied action is done.

I second this interpretation as well. You should only get the chance to activate your ready the first time the conditions are met. Which is why carefully worded readied actions are important.

[ryric]

Readied actions already can be very powerful, so any interpretation that curtails their time-warping usefulness is good in my book.

Your PC wizard should have to specify exactly what he's doing in response to the trigger. I will also point out that the Evil wizard can't take immediate actions while flat footed, so your plan doesn't work in the very important first round.

If the PC wizard has a favorite go-to spell for this, have Evil wizard use precast counters to it. Magic missile? Shield. Fireball? Resist energy. And so forth. If it has no easy counter, give the bad guy a ring of counterspells.

If you really want to mess with the PC wizard, give the bad guy a scroll of spell turning to use before battle.

Edit: Or, since the bad guys knows the PC does this, have him not cast a spell. Have him use a wand, or a scroll. Have him ready an action to disrupt the PC and let them play chicken while his minions chew up the other characters.

[Val'bryn2]

As others have said, it all depends on how the readied action is phrased, and while the BBEW won't be able to immediately use Feather Fall to waste the wizard's spell, he CAN use it as soon as it gets to be his turn, or a quickened spell, then follow that up with whatever spell you want

[Claxon]

One nitpick Ryric, it doesn't matter the the evil wizard is flat-footed because the PC is readying and waiting till the evil wizards turn, at which point he isn't flat-footed.

The way I'm understanding the order of actions is:
Wizard PC- Readies action to cast spell if other wizard casts
Other people - Stuff happens
Evil Wizard - Casts feather fall as an immediate action on his turn, sets off Wizard PCs readied action making it safe for him to cast other spells.

[GM Snowe]

Correct, Claxon, but I think he was going on my original post which was saying something along the lines of 'casting it as an immediate action before his turn.' Though it is true the NPC caster could just wait until his turn, cast FF as an immediate, and then follow up with something else, as Val'bryn suggested.

However, if we interpret that you must take a readied action against the first time the condition is met or lose it, we are practically destroying the ability to counterspell. FF is a fairly common spell, after all. Even NOT knowing if someone had a readied action to counter me, at higher levels, it's not that unreasonable to just a drop a FF at the start of your turn when fighting enemy casters just to make sure.

[Val'bryn2]

Not really, all we're doing is making certain you phrase the trigger right. Even if everyone starts doing it, they still need to have the spells to cast to be countered, which means they'ld have to fill their 1st level slots with Feather Fall, even at high levels, there are 1st level spells I want up and running in combat, getting every bit of advantage I can. Every Feather Fall I'm using as anti-readying is a Grease, True Strike, or Vanish I can't cast.

[QuidEst]

This will work one time. After that, the player readies to interrupt the next standard-action casting. The wording on readied actions doesn't seem to limit you to the first time the trigger is met ("anytime" "may take"), so it'd mostly be tricking him anyway.

Handy pre-buffs include blur, mirror image, and the various elemental immunity options. There's a cheap brooch to block Magic Missile, and shield works. Contingency might help. Psychic casters can use Cunning Caster effectively to hide casting.

Have enough minions to fight the rest of the group, and have the Mage ready his own counter-attack. Have a ring of invisibility or other useful opening item. Start with a dominated body-double on the field in your place. Wait for a dozen archers to ready attacks to interrupt the wizard. Use a supernatural ability from a class feature.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Immediate actions can only be taken in response to appropriate circumstances, as they are by definition out of turn actions. They can not be taken in turn.

You can cast Feather Fall as either a standard action or as an immediate action to save yourself from falling.

Not that it really matters in this particular case as I do believe that Feather Fall can be cast as a swift action spell, which would still trigger the PC's readied action.

[Jeff Merola]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Immediate actions can only be taken in response to appropriate circumstances, as they are by definition out of turn actions. They can not be taken in turn.

You can cast Feather Fall as either a standard action or as an immediate action to save yourself from falling.

Not that it really matters in this particular case as I do believe that Feather Fall can be cast as a swift action spell, which would still trigger the PC's readied action.

Incorrect. Any immediate action spell can be cast on your own turn, provided you meet the requirements to cast it (for instance Timely Inspiration only works if someone's failed an attack or skill check, so that would have to happen on your turn for you to cast it on your turn).

Quote:

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn.

[Gilfalas]

GM Snowe wrote:

Does PC Wizard have to take his readied action, leaving evil NPC to then cast a better spell on his own turn without having to worry about interference?

Firing a readied an action to counter spell would seem to be at the readied characters prerogative assuming they successfully identified the spell being cast and did not want to waste the counter spell action on something that will not harm them.

If they did not even attempt to ID the enemy spell as it is being cast and just 'readied an action to blast the bad guy when he cast' then I would rule that they fire as the caster casts.

It would come down to how the player stated their readied action and if they properly readied to counterspell or not, IMO.

[vorpaljesus]

This may or may not be relevant but keep in mind that you need to specify the action you're readying. You don't just ready "an action".

Also in my opinion, unless the condition is specified more than "when he casts a spell", I'd rule that the PC would need to use it or lose it after succeeding on the Spellcraft check against the Feather Fall.
Now if the condition was something like "casts and offensive spell" or something similar, I'd allow the action the be readied until an offensive spell is identified as being cast, or until the PC's next turn, when theyd decided if the want to act or try readying again.

Thirdly, the tactic the NPC wizard used in this case can be seen as either extremely canny or annoyingly metagamey depending on this GM's past playstyle. If his NPC's frequently can apparently useless spells to throw off ready counters, I'd expect this to happen even if a PC hadn't readied an action. If it only happened when a PC readied to interrupt a casting, I'd consider it metagaming and get frustrated.
I'd at least expect some sort of Sense motive check by the NPC to figure out my character's intent.

[Gilarius]

Something to consider: every time the bad guy uses his immediate action or swift action to cast Feather Fall is an action that he isn't casting a quickened spell.

I'd prefer to set up an illusion of the bad guy casting a spell that the PC can then waste his readied action on. Meanwhile, the real wizard can cast 2 spells...

[DM_Blake]

This seems to be within the rules, but it also seems to be within the rules for the PC to use Spellcraft and decline to interrupt the Feather Fall while still maintaining his readied action. So the PC probably wins this contest of outguessing the enemy.

There are better tricks.

Maybe the bad guy can quicken a few spells. Real spells that he might want to cast. In round 1, have him use a Quickened Magic Missile. When your PC sees him start to cast that, he'll use his readied action, then the bad guy can cast his big bad spell without interruption.

Or just have him use a Shield spell because he knows there will be magic missiles.

Or have him use Invisibility, or better yet, Greater Invisibility, to add +20 to the DC of the PC's Spellcraft check and to make him impossible to target with Magic Missiles (or any other targeted spell). Instead of invisibility, put him in an Obscuring Mist so he has line of effect but not line of sight, then let him use his scrying to see and target the PCs while they can't see or target him.

Give him a pair of NPC sorcerer allies with their OWN Magic Missile spells and have them ready Magic Missiles to use against the PC's readied Magic Missiles. Might be hard to beat that 30 Initiative, but they can ready actions for round 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. I'm fond of this last solution because I like to use the players' tricks against them.

Or just have Bob Dole and Lou Diamond Philips prepare readied attacks against the PC wizard - now when the BBEG begins casting, the PC wizard interrupts with a readied Magic Missile, and Bob and Lou interrupt the PC with attacks - if they succeed, the the PC never interrupts the BBEG.