Attempt to break grapple - does CMD vs. grapple modify opponent's CMD?

[Igor Makaryev]

Hello!

I'm studying Grapple Combat Maneuvers (God, save me!) and have one big question about it.

Some clarifications about my terms:
Attacker - is the one who made grapple combat maneuver and grappled someone (Defender).
Defender - is the one who was grappled by Attacker.

So, there is the rule:
"If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity)"

The question (of Life, the Universe, and Everything) is:
- is the combat maneuver check (that have to be made by Defender to escape) - grapple maneuver check?

If "yes":

1. Feats like "Improved Grapple" (that Attacker has) increases the difficulty of escaping grapple for Defender.
"You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to grapple you."
Defender wants to escape -> makes grapple maneuver check -> this is a check against Attacker's "CMD vs. grapple" that is increased by Improved Grapple.

2. Such things like weapon in one arm make check more difficult for Defender to escape.
"Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll."
Defender has light weapon in one arm -> Defender wants to escape -> makes grapple maneuver check -> Defender has -4 penalty for this check because of

weapon

3. Attacker has grappled condition too - this makes check easier for Defender to escape.
"Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity."
So Attacker's CMD suffers -2 penalty because of penalty to Dexterity.

I've read Internet a bit and those guys thinks that the answer is "yes":
http://www.tenebraemush.net/index.php/Understanding_Grappling
http://www.dorkistan.com/dorkistan/PFRPG/misc/grapple.htm

If "no":

- we ignore all such things like improved CMD or wepoans in arms and just roll "raw" CMB check of Defender vs. "raw" CMD check of Attacker.

So, could someone clarify for me this rule?

P.S. mini-question - and what about Escape Artist check then?

Thanks!

[Faelyn]

Yes, the defender can either attempt a Grapple maneuver to escape the grapple (or take over as the Grappler in charge of the grapple) by overcoming the Attacker's CMD or they can attempt an Escape Artist check vs. the Attacker's CMD. If either is successful, they escape the Grapple. The Defender would apply any special modifiers (Improved Grapple) to their attempt to escape (apply the -4 penalty if they do not have both hands free). There is no penalty assessed to an Escape Artist attempt beyond the -4 Dexterity penalty for being Grappled (a lot of people forget to account for that).

I hope that answers your question.

[Igor Makaryev]

Faelyn wrote:

Yes, the defender can either attempt a Grapple maneuver to escape the grapple (or take over as the Grappler in charge of the grapple) by overcoming the Attacker's CMD or they can attempt an Escape Artist check vs. the Attacker's CMD. If either is successful, they escape the Grapple. The Defender would apply any special modifiers (Improved Grapple) to their attempt to escape (apply the -4 penalty if they do not have both hands free). There is no penalty assessed to an Escape Artist attempt beyond the -4 Dexterity penalty for being Grappled (a lot of people forget to account for that).

I hope that answers your question.

Yeah, thank you very much!

One last note:
and Attacker would apply modifiers as "+1 CMD vs. grapple" (as favored class bonus) or "+2 CMD vs. grapple" (because of Improved Grapple feat) for his CMD in such checks, making Defender harder to escape, right?

[Faelyn]

Igor Makaryev wrote:

Faelyn wrote:

Yes, the defender can either attempt a Grapple maneuver to escape the grapple (or take over as the Grappler in charge of the grapple) by overcoming the Attacker's CMD or they can attempt an Escape Artist check vs. the Attacker's CMD. If either is successful, they escape the Grapple. The Defender would apply any special modifiers (Improved Grapple) to their attempt to escape (apply the -4 penalty if they do not have both hands free). There is no penalty assessed to an Escape Artist attempt beyond the -4 Dexterity penalty for being Grappled (a lot of people forget to account for that).

I hope that answers your question.

Yeah, thank you very much!

One last note:
and Attacker would apply modifiers as "+1 CMD vs. grapple" (as favored class bonus) or "+2 CMD vs. grapple" (because of Improved Grapple feat) for his CMD in such checks, making Defender harder to escape, right?

You are absolutely correct.

[Igor Makaryev]

Faelyn wrote:

You are absolutely correct.

Thank tou again!

Hope this topice will be hopeful for someone else too.

[Igor Makaryev]

Igor Makaryev wrote:

Faelyn wrote:

You are absolutely correct.

Thank tou again!

Hope this topice will be hopeful for someone else too.

Helpful, of course : )

[Thomas Keller]

Is this information still correct? You can use modifiers to grapple to escape a grapple?

[zza ni]

Thomas Keller wrote:

Is this information still correct? You can use modifiers to grapple to escape a grapple?

yes and no.

modifiers to the one maintaining the grapple (and thus uses his cmd to keep it) use stuff that modify grapple. but if the defender try to use escape artist instead of a grapple check he can not use modifiers that help grapple checks (since he doesn't roll one) but he can use stuff that add to skills specifically escape artist.
if he tries with a grapple check then he use grapple modifiers (but not skill modifiers).

also note that a grapple check as a combat maneuver check is an attack roll so stuff that modify that work, as well as auto success with a nat 20 and auto fail with a nat 1. escape artist as a skill is not an auto success even if one roll a nat 20 (the same as rolling nat 20 on a jump attempt won't let you jump all the way to the moon. the dc is too high).

some of my grapple builds are taking this into account by making sure the target can't roll attacks (usually using fear) while having the dc way too high for even a roll of 20 to be effective (on a skill that most do not have a lot in).

[Thomas Keller]

Attempting to escape a grapple is a grapple check? Doesn't say that in the book.

[DeathlessOne]

Thomas Keller wrote:

Attempting to escape a grapple is a grapple check? Doesn't say that in the book.

Attempting to break the grapple using a CMB check (or take control of it) is a grapple check. The other check you can make is an Escape Artist (skill) check. Trying to argue otherwise would require one to be needlessly pedantic about the exact phrasing of the description of the maneuver in question.

[zza ni]

Thomas Keller wrote:

Attempting to escape a grapple is a grapple check? Doesn't say that in the book.

attempting whatever is whatever you attempt to do:

attempting to escape via spell is spell casting (and any checks it might require).
attempting to escape by talking it out is a diplomacy check.
attempting via grapple is a grapple check.
via a escape artist skill is an escape artist skill check.
via murdering the grappler is an attack check.
etc.

this is why things that help by making it easier to escape -like the grease spell, specifically call out what they effect.

in grease's case : "A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled."

things that only make you better at one of these checks (better at grappling but not escape artist or better at escape artist but not grappling) only effect the check they say.