The whip does not threaten.
The rules for AoO say you threaten areas into which you can make a melee attack but the whip is an exception, so you only threaten areas into which you can attack with your spikes. Since you're only threatening with your spikes, you can only make the AoO with your spikes.
TBH, I agree with you that the rules don't exactly say that you must make the AoO with the weapon that threatens, so technically by pure RAW you could probably threaten with the spikes and then make the AoO with the whip.
But that's obviously cheese and we all know it, including you, which is why you asked if this is going too far. The whip doesn't threaten so don't make AoOs with it. Period. That's clearly the intent of the wording, even if they left this weird loophole.
I would not allow it at my table, even though I agree with you that whips are pretty crappy so giving them a loophole to make them a bit more interesting isn't necessarily a bad thing. At my table, I would rather work on a homebrew feat to enable you to threaten with the whip, or maybe a homebrew magical enchantment or something. Which ultimately would be more powerful than the spike/whip cheese, but it would have a huge advantage: it wouldn't be cheese.
Scorpion Whips do threaten at 5' when not in 'whip mode.' So if you also have Whip proficiency you can switch between the two modes to have a single weapon that will either have 15' reach or can threaten adjacent squares.
Scorpion Whips were clarified in this post.
Scorpion Whips: How do scorpion whips work? There are several published sources of scorpion whips, and they seem inconsistent.
Change the last sentence in the Ultimate Combat scorpion whip's description to say "If you are proficient with both scorpion whips and whips, you can use a scorpion whip in either the normal way, as a typical light performance weapon, or as a whip. When you use a scorpion whip as a whip, it is otherwise equivalent to a whip, but it deals lethal damage and can harm creatures regardless of their armor bonus." This change will be reflected in future errata.What this means is that the scorpion whip is normally a light performance weapon with no other special weapon features, but that someone with both proficiencies can also use it as a whip, in which case it acts precisely like a whip in all ways (one-handed weapon, attack out to 15 feet, provoke an attack of opportunity, can use the Whip Mastery feats, etc) except that it deals lethal damage and can harm creatures regardless of their armor bonus.
The action required to switch modes wasn't specified, but Mark Seifter expressed the opinion that it is a free action.
Scorpion Whips don't have reach. They threaten adjacent squares only.
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There are a couple of good ways to pick up both proficiencies at 1st level. My favorites are:
(1) Half-elf or Half-orc Kensai Magus
Half-elves can get Whip proficiency through Ancestral Arms.
Half-orcs can get it through Beastmaster or City-Raised.
One level of Kensai gets you Scorpion Whip proficiency and Weapon Focus (Scorpion Whip). You also get a bit of Arcane Pool, Canny Defense, and spells.
(2) Half-elf Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler
Half-elves can get Scorpion Whip proficiency through Ancestral Arms.
One level of Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler gets you Whip proficiency and Avenger Finesse. You also get a bit of Panache and a Deed.
There are a couple of good ways to pick up both proficiencies at 1st level. My favorites are:
(1) Half-elf or Half-orc Kensai Magus
Half-elves can get Whip proficiency through Ancestral Arms.
Half-orcs can get it through Beastmaster or City-Raised.
One level of Kensai gets you Scorpion Whip proficiency and Weapon Focus (Scorpion Whip). You also get a bit of Arcane Pool, Canny Defense, and spells.(2) Half-elf Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler
Half-elves can get Scorpion Whip proficiency through Ancestral Arms.
One level of Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler gets you Whip proficiency and Avenger Finesse. You also get a bit of Panache and a Deed.
Clerics/warpriests of Selket get Scorpion Whip proficiency. Also human with Military Tradition gains proficiency with up to two martial or exotic weapons.
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Improved Whip Mastery allows you to threaten with a whip out to 10' (for medium and small creatures).
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With the "NEW" FAQ/Errata, the character needs two feats to be able to use the Scorpion Whip as it was used before. (Exotic Weapon Proficiency -Scorpion Whip & Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Whip)
If your a fighter, you already have proficiency, but if your a bard, you need the Scorpion Whip feat in addition to the already known proficiency of the normal Whip. (Or an Oracle kitsune that became proficient with the Whip just when the Errata came out)
I sold all my Scorpion Whips. My characters need those feats for something else.
Clerics/warpriests of Selket get Scorpion Whip proficiency. Also human with Military Tradition gains proficiency with up to two martial or exotic weapons.There are a couple of good ways to pick up both proficiencies at 1st level. My favorites are:
(1) Half-elf or Half-orc Kensai Magus
Half-elves can get Whip proficiency through Ancestral Arms.
Half-orcs can get it through Beastmaster or City-Raised.
One level of Kensai gets you Scorpion Whip proficiency and Weapon Focus (Scorpion Whip). You also get a bit of Arcane Pool, Canny Defense, and spells.(2) Half-elf Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler
Half-elves can get Scorpion Whip proficiency through Ancestral Arms.
One level of Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler gets you Whip proficiency and Avenger Finesse. You also get a bit of Panache and a Deed.
Military Tradition is interesting, but I notice that the chosen weapons are culturally specific. Which Golarian culture traditionally uses both Whips and Scorpion Whips?
Anywhere in Osirion would be appropriate as both the whip and scorpion whip is used currently or historically. Anywhere in Nidal should work too, as will anywhere with a strong church of calistria.
Thank you!
It requires exotic weapon proficiency, but the kusarigama might be what you're looking for.
The kusarigama basically fills the old 3.5 spiked chain role as a two-handed weapon with variable reach, with the "fix" being that it's a double weapon, so you have to enchant the ball end (d6 damage, 10' reach, grapple) and the sickle end (d3 damage, 5' reach, trip) separately.
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everyones giving me suggestions for other weapons to use or how to make a scorpion whip work (which i thank you for, but dont need for my whip using drow), but no ones answering the actual question i asked
=P
I did further up thread. Improved Whip Mastery will allow you to use a normal whip for an AoO.
DM_Blake answered those questions. I endorse his opinion as well.
DM_Blake answered those questions. I endorse his opinion as well.
As do I.
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In order to make an attack of opportunity, you must be able to threaten a square. Since the whip does not threaten a square without Improved Whip Mastery, it cannot make an AoO. If you are threatening via Armor Spikes, then you must take the AoO from the armor spikes.
This is set by the precedent set by Unarmed Strikes:
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
Since you don't normally threaten any squares with a whip, you cannot make attacks of opportunity with a whip.
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@Baval: If you don't threaten with weapon X, but threaten with weapon Y, how can you take an AoO with a weapon that does not threaten?
Your question is equivalent to asking, "If I am wielding a dagger in one hand, but have my other hand empty, and someone provokes an AoO from me, can I take the AoO with my empty hand?"
And, from the RULES ALREADY QUOTED PREVIOUSLY, the answer is a resounding, "No!" as the empty hand does not threaten.
Which is what most GMs will tell you. And they will be taking pity on you, as well, when they do that.
Why pity? Well, let's see. Normal whip, if you use it to make an attack against an adjacent enemy will provoke an AoO from any enemy that threatens you, as well. Not to mention, yet again, that said AoO is unlikely to have any possibility of doing any damage to said enemy, if you survive to actually make it. Whips cannot injure (do ANY damage) to most opponents that would want to be in melee with you. An armor bonus of +1 is going to cover most any kind of armor anyone wears. Heck, even arcane casters can wind up wearing armor that gives a base +1 while not giving them any sort of ASF to deal with, Haramaki and Ceremonial Silk Armor...
From the PRD: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
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2) Yes, because people make dumb mistakes, including going sub-optimally.
1) If you cannot take an AoO with a weapon, what makes you think you can take an AoO with that weapon?
No means no.
And the Unarmed entry includes the proviso because Improved Unarmed Strike allows taking an AoO with an unarmed strike.
You can either man up to "No AoOs" means no AoOs, or talk with your GM, it is THEIR decision. If I were your GM, my response would be no. As a player, when I was playing my whip wielder up, and wielding a dagger at low levels, I would only take any AoO provoked allowed by wielding the dagger with the dagger.
If you want to play verbal passive aggressive games, take them to your own GM. Everyone else here, who has answered, has, basically, told you no. Either pay the feat tax (EWP: Whip, Weapon Focus: Whip, Whip Mastery, & Improved Whip Mastery) or forego taking AoOs with your whip.
If you go back and read what the others have posted (or more accurately DM_Blake, as the others have agreed with him) you'll find that in fact he agrees with me, that RAW it does imply you could make the attack with the Whip, even though that is very clearly not RAI.
Not quite. I didn't say the rules implied it. I said they didn't expressly forbid it. They don't expressly forbid your average common human from shooting fireballs out of their eyeballs at will, but I don't think that means it's implied that they can.
"Imply" and "RAI" are virtually synonymous in terms of what they mean when trying to make sense of rules.
In this case, the implication is quite the opposite - you cannot make any AoOs with your whip. The lack of expressly forbidding it creates that loophole, but the implication is fairly clear.
I, for one, think that he has a perfectly valid question. The real question is whether the weapon itself threatens or if the character threatens. The rules seem to indicate that the character threatens and makes no caveat about which weapon you must attack with when making your AoO.
I, for one, think that he has a perfectly valid question. The real question is whether the weapon itself threatens or if the character threatens. The rules seem to indicate that the character threatens and makes no caveat about which weapon you must attack with when making your AoO.
The character threatens because of and with a weapon. While in some places it talks about the weapon, and in others the character, it is fairly clear that for attacks of opportunity the two work together.
Did I miss something saying that the weapon threatens?
I have seen where it says that a character threatens with weapon. That is still saying that it is the character that threatens, though.
Also, did I miss something specifying which weapon you must attack with when making an AoO?
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The fact that you threaten with the wielded weapon?
The point of all this is that AoO's are done with the threatening implement the character has. FAQ's in the past are ruled in the same manner as this, with all the confusion with TWF vs. MWF and how Armor Spikes can not be a "third" hand. It is not expressly written out, nor is there a "rule" to say that one weapon that doesn't threaten can't be used when an AoO is proviked by another. This is because it is assumed that their is typically only a weapon that is used to threaten with and the character usually doesn't have an armory wielded at a given time.
Rules such at this, in a game that is going off a system that has been around for as long as this one has, can not account for every given situation that may come up and have a specific qualifier for every little variant that can occur.
There is some Common Sense that can be used in this case. You take your AoO's with the weapon that provoked it. Seems simple enough for me...
Actually it could even be a ranged attack with Snap Shot line of feats. This kind of rule becomes very relevant with Zen Archers with those feats.
My group has always ruled you can AoO with ANY weapon you threaten with.
But the rules don't say that. I can see the other side of this discussion. Just saying how my group rules it.
So is the debate then basically about the question, "Even though I can't normally make an AoO with a whip, where is the rule saying I can't make an AoO with a whip if I'm holding a dagger in my other hand?"
Isn't this basically the same argument as, "Why can't I make an AoO with my longbow if I have Improved Unarmed Strike?"
You can't because, even if the rules don't explicitly state it, the rules pretty clearly imply that you make AoO with weapons that you are currently threatening with. Not all rules are explicit. Not all corner cases can be covered. This is one of those areas where the game designers have left it to us to figure out how things are supposed to work. But, they left us a pretty good map to get from A to B. There really isn't any controversy here - if you can't make an AoO with a weapon when you're wielding that weapon alone, why would one think that holding a different weapon at the same time would allow you to make an AoO with the first one?
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To the OP, since you said it is valuable for people to say "I wouldn't allow it in my game," count me in that group.
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...I mean I can think of a lot of ways to justify why if that is what you mean. Mostly it would be that attacking with any weapon requires the same amount of effort.
I'm not sure why my justification would matter in a rules forum, though. I mean, I'm sure that by me giving that justification that it is only going to paint a target on it for someone to argue with. Eventually someone will say that my justification is irrelevant as that isn't what the rules say. And that would be true, however I would be quick to point out that the rules do not specify at all which weapon you must attack with in an AoO.
Whips can attack at 5'. The fact that it provokes when doing so is irrelevant. If you threaten with one weapon but have two that you could attack with is there anything in the rules limiting you to which you must attack with? No.
Justification on either side doesn't really matter. Anecdotal evidence is all we can give. I can see both sides and depending on the circumstances could rule either way.
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I would still say that you can only do the AoO with a weapon that threatens. The Whip is an exception on what you can do with it for a great many rules, this is one weapon that needs expertise to be able to use in a snap instant.
This is also the same with wielding a reach weapon vs. armor spikes. You can't use the Armor Spikes when the AoO is provoked from out of their reach and you can't use the reach weapon if it can't hit from the provoking square. (meaning an adjacent square to the character)
When you are able to make AoO's with the whip, you are not provoking with it anyway.
Are you trying to trip with an AoO with the Whip? You need the feats to be able to do that.
...I mean I can think of a lot of ways to justify why if that is what you mean. Mostly it would be that attacking with any weapon requires the same amount of effort.
What I mean is, if I can't make an attack of opportunity (normally) by kicking somebody while my hands are empty, why could I make an attack of opportunity by kicking somebody when I'm now carrying a club? Holding a club doesn't make me any better, per the rules, at kicking people. Why can I in one instance but not the other?
I understand the rules aren't explicit. But the idea of making AoO and threatening are inextricably entwined.
If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
So, you don't get to make AoO because you don't threaten. I understand that the rules don't explicitly state that "You can only make AoO with a weapon you are currently threatening that opponent with", but frankly they shouldn't have to.
If you aren't wielding a weapon that threatens, you cannot make an attack of opportunity. This is undeniable. The implication is pretty strong from the rules treatment of threatening and AoO that then if you are wielding a weapon that threatens and one that does not, you can only make the AoO with the one that threatens. The entire point of threatening is to be able to make AoO.
What are the circumstances that would allow you to rule differently in one situation than another?