Do you threaten your own square?


Rules Questions


Question same as the title, could not find answer after a quick look through the combat section.

So for example if a medium creature (human commoner) was being attacked by a tiny creature (house cat) currently occupying the same square as each other; would the commoner be able to attack the house cat or would the commoner first have to 5' step to an adjacent square?

Would the same hold true for larger creatures?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Yes.

Rules: Combat Section: Big and Little Creatures Combat: Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures wrote:
You can attack into your own square if you need to, ...
Rules for threatening wrote:
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn.

A specific exception would be when you're wielding a reach weapon you can't attack into adjacent squares or your own.


That was the text I was looking for. Thank you.


This situation would NOT provoke an AoO for the human though. Since the cat is within its listed reach, its attacks do NOT provoke.

So you asked two questions:

Do you threaten your own square? Yes
Do you get AoO on creatures IN your square? Not in this case, and generally not.

Grand Lodge

But a benefit of 5' stepping away form the cat is that it would provoke when it tried to move back into your square...

Edit: And, since it is tiny, it doesn't threaten, so you could just move away, so it couldn't just 5' step into your square, thus provoking twice for moving into your square.


pipedreamsam wrote:

Question same as the title, could not find answer after a quick look through the combat section.

So for example if a medium creature (human commoner) was being attacked by a tiny creature (house cat) currently occupying the same square as each other; would the commoner be able to attack the house cat or would the commoner first have to 5' step to an adjacent square?

Would the same hold true for larger creatures?

They can attack into the square. Reach weapons have rules for not attacking at shorter ranges, other melee weapons do not.


kinevon wrote:
Edit: And, since it is tiny, it doesn't threaten, so you could just move away, so it couldn't just 5' step into your square, thus provoking twice for moving into your square.

Tiny creatures don't threaten adjacent squares, but they still threaten their own, right? So if you move away (no 5' Step) you would provoke from leaving the tiny creature's threatened square. Unless I've overlooked some other rule about tiny creatures?

Grand Lodge

Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.

I admit to confusion, and running it wrong, I guess. Unlike swarms, it appears that actual tiny, diminutive and fine creatures do threaten their own square.

Still, taking a single AoO to make it not able to take its full attack, if it has one, is not usually a bad thing. And the cat familiar entry shows it gets two claws and a bite, so...

And, for example, making the stirges chase you is not a bad thing.


DM_Blake wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Edit: And, since it is tiny, it doesn't threaten, so you could just move away, so it couldn't just 5' step into your square, thus provoking twice for moving into your square.
Tiny creatures don't threaten adjacent squares, but they still threaten their own, right? So if you move away (no 5' Step) you would provoke from leaving the tiny creature's threatened square. Unless I've overlooked some other rule about tiny creatures?

Eyup.

You five foot back and swing. 5 foot= no Aoo.

Per the new faq if he 5 foot steps to follow you get an AoO.


alexd1976 wrote:

This situation would NOT provoke an AoO for the human though. Since the cat is within its listed reach, its attacks do NOT provoke.

So you asked two questions:

Do you threaten your own square? Yes
Do you get AoO on creatures IN your square? Not in this case, and generally not.

Well obviously, the cat is also a secret wizard, and it tries to cast a spell in your square. Because cats aren't already the bane of first level adventurers.


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What are you doing beating up on housecats anyway? You monster.


alexd1976 wrote:
What are you doing beating up on housecats anyway? You monster.

The question's not that, it's if you can threaten your square. I'd say that's an Intimidate skill check. Not quite sure what DC to assign, although it'd vary for, say, sand, dirt, stone, et cetera. And I don't recall the rules for demoralised terrain.

But yeah, unless you have a reach weapon, you threaten your own square. KILL IT! NOW!


The whole reach weapon question prompts the question - can't you just eliminate the whole issue of threatening adjacent squares with armor spikes?


MeanMutton wrote:
The whole reach weapon question prompts the question - can't you just eliminate the whole issue of threatening adjacent squares with armor spikes?

It's one of the traditional ways, yes. Spiked gauntlets and cesti are others, if you're paranoid.


Qaianna wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
The whole reach weapon question prompts the question - can't you just eliminate the whole issue of threatening adjacent squares with armor spikes?
It's one of the traditional ways, yes. Spiked gauntlets and cesti are others, if you're paranoid.

You can't handle it well.

Armor spikes are light weapons. Ones that you will probably never upgrade as well as your spear. Your spear getting 1.5x damage boosts. So have them, since they are a minor price and can at least punish tricksy spell casters... but don't think they are doing much real work.

Threatening your own square is usually a relatively minor issue, since you already got AoOs when they got into you anyway. And even if it is in your square, you can back up with a 5' step to attack properly.

But this problem is much worse with enlarge. With medium vs. tiny creatures, you can manage with a 5' step, so it is a minor trade off for reach goodness. But With large vs. medium... you get a noticable doughnut with little way to deal with it well.

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