Looks to me that it works by default. Ki Arrows says 'change the damage dice of arrows he shoots to that of his unarmed strikes' not 'to that of his base unarmed strikes'. Size bonuses don't stack but strictly speaking this isn't a size bonus. The only thing I could see that could break this is the line in gravity bow 'Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one size larger than it actually is.' The bow is actually medium, and this spell could be interpreted as enforcing a specific size on the weapon based on its original size, not based on the damage dice it's dealing at the time the spell is cast.
Design Manager
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The Zen Archer using Ki Arrows replaces his arrow damage with his unarmed strike damage, so how big the arrows are doesn't matter at all. He can't benefit from Ki Arrows and Lead Blades/Gravity Bow.
Further, Lead Blades and Gravity Bow both state that they set the weapon's damage to " one size larger than it actually is ". They both set the size to one category larger than actual, and so don't stack again. Basically, the only abilities that actually stack are Ki Arrows and Enlarge Person. Neither Gravity Bow nor Lead Blades stacks with Ki Arrows, nor do Gravity Bow and Lead Blades stack with each other.
There could be some argument for Lead Blades and Enlarge Person stacking to increase your unarmed strike damage but I don't think that works either. Unarmed Strike damage is calculated based on the character's size and effective monk level. Regardless of how weird and freakishly large his fists/feet/head are, a large Monk between levels 8 and 11 will always deal 2d8 damage with his unarmed strikes.
Lead blades is only available for melee weapons so won't effect bows or amunition.
Also, I think there have been a couple of threads on the zen archer uberness.
Lead blades increases the size of your unarmed strike...Enlarge person increases the size of your unarmed strike, does not stack
But according to the wording, gravity bow increases the size of the arrow, not the size of you or the bow, so it can be argued that you get an increase to damage from enlarge person to your unarmed strike, and then an increase to your ranged attack with gravity bow...which is two spells that takes 1 standard actions and enlarge person takes 1 round, when you could just carry around bigger arrows which would do the same thing :)
Enlarge person=bigger bow, but arrows leaving return to normal size, so bigger arrows negate that.
Also, lead blades is only effective the moment before impact, so it won't be a constant effect, only when you hit something melee so it does not good unless your punching them with the arrow.
I would advice carrying around potions of enlarge person, or wand for someone else to cast, and carry 2 sizes of arrows.
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There's more to it than just that. Let's ignore Lead Blades and such for a moment, and look towards the Unarmed Strike for Monks:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Now we look at a better size upping ability, Strong Jaw:
Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is.
With that said, we have a new replacement for Lead Blades/Gravity Bow. In addition, the language of Righteous Might says you count as the "next size category" when the spell is cast on you, so starting with Enlarge Person, followed by Righteous Might, and Strong Jaw, we have the following benefits:
Standard - 2D6
Enlarged - 3D6
Righteous Might - 4D6
Strong Jaw - 8D6
So not only do you threaten a minimum of 15 feet (this doesn't include Improved Snap Shot), but also with each shot you are making, it's 8D6 plus your other stuff. It's like concentrated mini fireballs!
Righteous Might and Enlarge Person are incompatible.
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
Your height immediately doubles, and your weight increases by a factor of eight. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one.
- Gauss
Enlarge person increases the size which in turn increases the weapon they are wielding (to include the bow until the arrow leaves) which would be their unarmed strike, Lead blades is another size increase which does not stack with enlarge person's buff since they are both a size increase buff.
Strong jaw would override enlarge person since it is an increase of 2 sizes instead of one. Both are size increase and do not stack, although you can get the other bonuses from enlarge person (incr str, ac pen, etc.)
Righteous might is also a size increase and doesn't stack. (abilities that aren't granted by the other spells are still gained)
So of those choses, the strong jaw might be better, it is a Standard action so faster than enlarge person, although with enlarge person plus the bigger arrow, you get the 1 size of unarmed attack, plus an incidental 1 size boost of the bigger bow w/ bigger arrow.
And enlarge person is a spell lvl 1 , so the potion will be cheaper
So for time management, potion of enlarge person(rd1), Full attack 2nd round
or- teamate use wand of enlarge person and full attack round one
Gravity bow can be added since it increases the arrow after it leaves the bow (fluff maybe, but it only affects the arrow after it leaves the bow)so it would be
Med Bow---Large bow w/ enlarge unarmed damage---large arrow used to turn into huge arrow right when hit
Strong jaw - spell lvl 4 druid/3 ranger
Righteous might- spell lvl 5 cl/inq/ora
(I might be wrong with the stacking of Gravity bow if it is affected as fluff being right before it hits)
Hzardus, Enlarge Person (or Righteous Might) stacks with Gravity Bow or Lead Blades or Strong Jaw. Gravity Bow, Lead Blades, and Strong Jaw do not actually alter your size. They alter your weapon's base damage.
Thus, the following combinations are possible:
Enlarge Person + Lead Blades
Righteous Might + Lead Blades
Enlarge Person + Gravity Bow (assumes you pick up a ranged weapon sized for your new, enlarged size AFTER being enlarged)
Righteous Might + Gravity Bow (same as Enlarge Person)
What does not stack:
Enlarge Person and Righteous Might: Both size increases
Strong Jaw and Lead Blades: both base damage increases
Strong Jaw and Gravity Bow (if you somehow got an attack that qualified for both): Both base damage increases
Gravity Bow and Lead Blades (again, if you somehow got an attack that qualified for both): Both base damage increases
- Gauss
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Has this actually been clarified?
Cause it can be read both ways, deals damage as if ____ size category larger.
Is it an untyped bonus size increase (to determine damage), or a bonus size increase (to determine damage)? Cause then it would fall into the noncompatible range.
Actually curious now.
And if thats the case, gravity bow and enlarge person is still the cheaper way to go about it.
Gravity Bow Spell lvl 1 wiz/sorc/rang
Lead blade spell lvl 1 rang
And if the "as if" is considered crunch (meaning untyped), then the hit on impact will be considered crunch instead of fluff and therefore wouldn't be affected by the increased unarmed damage.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
To my knowledge, there has not been a ruling.
However, the logic is as follows:
Either Lead Blades (assume I also include Gravity Bow in that) is size changing or it is not.
If Lead Blades changes the size of your weapon then it would fall under the rules for inappropriately sized weapons. There is nothing in the spell(s) to indicate it actually changes the weapon's size. Since no actual size change occurs it does not fall under the rules for inappropriately sized weapons.
Since no actual size change occurs when using Lead Blades, it is not a violation of Enlarge Person's restriction against size changing magic.
Thus, via Enlarge Person we have a large person using a large weapon that then has the damage raised from Large to Huge.
Cheesy? Perhaps. Against the rules? No.
In short: "As if" is not the same thing as "it is a size category larger".
However, this is just logic. Who knows where the FAQ will come down on this. :)
- Gauss
both spells mention it being affected as being a weapon or ammo of increased size then it goes back to normal. so on the moment of impact, it is treated as being of that size larger, not on the swing which in theory is where you get the penalty from. that way it does the damage without hurting the accuracy. But it still says that its treated as size increase, and that it is not in effect until it hits (lead blade) or leaves the bow (gravity bow)
And I faq'd both our posts to hopefully get a ruling.
If it makes a difference to you, here is James Jacobs on the topic.
- Gauss
Yes it actually does.
By his logic it does stack, but by the same logic, you will not get the bonus to lead blades to unarmed attack until dealing damage, so it won't effect the actual arrow.
This I say because he is treating it in an "as if" mindset and that is going by how it is written.
regardless, it is still more beneficial to the OP to use a potion or wand of both enlarge person and gravity bow for those spells for round count unless they are able to know the fight and able to prepare before hand. Wasting rounds just buffing yourself for 2 rounds before attacking on the third is not very effective for some combats. And don't forget the large arrows so the zen archer isn't affected by the enlarge person flaw with ranged weapons.
with enlarge person the arrow shrinks back to (this is assuming a medium longbow) medium, but does damage at large scale. so it is viable with the combo. And therefore both lead and gravity will work with each other, but thats another round for an 1d8 to become a 2d6 (bow). Have to be potions on those, they are self activated only.
Gravity bow significantly increases the weight and density of arrows or bolts fired from your bow or crossbow the instant before they strike their target and then return them to normal a few moments later. Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one size larger than it actually is. For instance, an arrow fired from a Medium longbow normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if fired from a gravity bow. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses your bow to make an attack the arrows deal damage as normal for their size.
The bow would be a huge gravity bow at first (large for enlarge, and gravity bow gives it ability of another step up so huge) but the arrow would shrink back to normal so it would be medium with the gravity bow ability so large. Reaching...maybe, but just as much as the rest of the word lawyering going on.
I have no comeback for the lead blade, did the math at lvl 5, it is better by 2 points of damage.
before lvl 5 though, gravity bow is better cause it will actually increase damage before he gets to the ki arrow.
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Design Manager
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***I think or hope that we are all in agreement that when a 12th level monk attacks with his lead blade ("as if") fists it does 3d6 damage and 4d6 if he is enlarged and has lead blade. So that is all that matters.
****
I just want to point out that I do not believe this to be true. As I mentioned earlier, Monk unarmed strike damage is determined by the size of the character and his level. It runs on its own scale and making his fists freaky big won't impact his damage. Only actual size increases to the monk himself should impact his unarmed strike damage. Just because the monk has freaky clown feet doesn't mean he's somehow better at martial arts.
And as mentioned previously, Ki Arrows replaces your weapon damage with your unarmed strike damage. Only abilities that affect your unarmed strike damage will have an effect, because increases to the bow or arrows damage dice are replaced by the unarmed strike.
"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
Unarmed attack IS a natural attack.
"A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage.."
"All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are."
This seems pretty clear to me. The monk's size does not increase, but he is treated as if it did.
[edit] Let me take my reasoning a little further. Does the monk's size increase? No. Does the monk take his unarmed damage from his size? Yes. But here's the important part "...unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon..." the strike is, in fact, a weapon, thus being effected by lead blades.
Though you really should use strong jaw...
What I don't understand is why people don't go and purchase large sized arrows. I mean really use your brains.
This gets discussed in every, "Can I enlarge my bow" thread.
Unarmed attack IS a natural attack.
no IT is not.
And you don't carry an Unarmed attack.And The monk's size is not treated as if it did. and if it did it wouldn't stack with EP.
edit:
Amiri, Iconic Barbarian
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/npcCodex/iconic/amiri.html
She uses a Large bastard sword. That doesn't make her large.
Did you read the quote? Or are you making the argument that a monk's unarmed strikes are natural weapons but not natural attacks?
I'm not even sure how the example you gave is relevant.
Actually, now that I'm examining this I really think you're trolling me... that's what I get for assuming I suppose.
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The thing about lead blades is if I'm carrying 3 daggers a long sword and a club. They are all treated as 1 size larger and I am carrying them. My unarmed strikes? They don't change at all. The clause with monks able to have their fists be targeted as manufactured or natural weapons doesnt come into play here because lead blades doesn't target his weapons.
When you put it that way, I could see how RAW it could be ruled as such. I feel like RAI the sentence about monk unarmed strikes counting as manufactured is specifically in there to make it so spells like lead blades do work.
Regardless, as strong jaw specifically targets natural weapons I'm pretty sure it would work, and its a stronger buff to boot.
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Design Manager
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When you put it that way, I could see how RAW it could be ruled as such. I feel like RAI the sentence about monk unarmed strikes counting as manufactured is specifically in there to make it so spells like lead blades do work.
Regardless, as strong jaw specifically targets natural weapons I'm pretty sure it would work, and its a stronger buff to boot.
My reading against Lead Blades working is that the size of a monk's unarmed strikes has no impact on his damage. Only his character's actual size and monk level.
The unarmed damage values listed on Table: Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage on the table given below.
Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage Level Damage (Small Monk) Damage (Large Monk)
1st–3rd 1d4 1d8
4th–7th 1d6 2d6
8th–11th 1d8 2d8
12th–15th 1d10 3d6
16th–19th 2d6 3d8
20th 2d8 4d8
Essentially, the monk is replacing the damage values his weapon size would dictate with damage values determined by training.
Conversely, I think Strong Jaw actually would work on a normal unarmed fighter, since he actually uses his base unarmed damage without replacing it via an unusual and specific progression.
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Well I did a bit more research...
Strong Jaw Says: "Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is."
Lead Blades Says: "All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are."
Looking at this, I will have to go back on what I said. It seems that lead blades does not work, because as you said the damage is based directly on the size of the monk.
However, because the wording on strong jaw specifically calls out the creature as counting as larger, I think it does work, as it would make the entire monk count as larger than normal.
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Design Manager
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Well I did a bit more research...
Strong Jaw Says: "Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is."
Lead Blades Says: "All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are."
Looking at this, I will have to go back on what I said. It seems that lead blades does not work, because as you said the damage is based directly on the size of the monk.
However, because the wording on strong jaw specifically calls out the creature as counting as larger, I think it does work, as it would make the entire monk count as larger than normal.
I would absolutely agree with this. Thanks for looking at it and pointing out those distinctions.
Did you read the quote? Or are you making the argument that a monk's unarmed strikes are natural weapons but not natural attacks?
I'm not even sure how the example you gave is relevant.
Actually, now that I'm examining this I really think you're trolling me... that's what I get for assuming I suppose.
Bad editing from my part. Calm down man.
But still.....
Jason B says no:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2k3jv?Monks-and-Monster-Feats#46
And what does Improved Natural Attack do?
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step [...]
Um, alright...
"Unarmed strikes ARE still treated as natural weapons for most effects (particularly for the spell magic fang and for amulets of magic fang), but the Improved Natural Attack feat is an exception to that rule."
It says explicitly that unarmed strikes are natural weapons.
Furthermore, the feat specifically calls out unarmed strike as not applicable. If unarmed strike was not a natural attack, it wouldn't have to. The reason this feat does not apply isn't because unarmed strike is not a natural attack, but because you can apply weapon focus to it, and they didn't want the two feats to stack.
It is Friday evening, I’d just had a good meal and some nice Italian wine and the rules are murky.
LOL!
I check out the thread later this week or next week. Hope you all will have a nice weekend.
Edit:
I Think we need a FAQ
The reason lead blades doesn't work is because the spell doesn't target your fists. You can't pick them up or carry them they are just there. The fact that the monks whole body is a weapon is irrelivant.
I’d say it now is at least 4 and Mojorat is a respected poster on these messageboards.
BTW,
If you aren't holding it, it isn't carried, worn, or held.
I’d say it now is at least 4 and Mojorat is a respected poster on these messageboards.
Now your making me blush.
But really, I have no idea if the intent of the spell was to prevent monks from having nice stuff. Was the whole carried thing an intent to deny the carried weapon challenged? Or simply creative wording? I havent a clue.
What I do know is there are several other spells that do what lead blades does without any questionable issues.