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This one looks like fun. You actually get to do some archaeology!
A couple of questions... I'm going to be slowly prepping this over the course of the week so I'm sure I'll have a few more.
1. What's the effect of the wards in A8? It's mentioned in A8 that a PC may be affected by a compulsion effect that triggers on entering A9, but the actual effect appears to be missing, and it seems like it's a little important!
There's a fascination effect that could easily be classified as a compulsion effect in A9, but it's got its own separate save and triggering effect and it doesn't make sense for the A8 wards to interact with it.
2. What's the origin of the corpse in A8? Corpse makes it sound as though there's flesh on those bones, which would be a little much for a Jistkan. Was it intended to be another dead Chelish soldier, whose comrade was lost in A7?
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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This one looks like fun. You actually get to do some archaeology!
A couple of questions... I'm going to be slowly prepping this over the course of the week so I'm sure I'll have a few more.
I like it a lot. Not too mechanically overwhelming, but quite "clever".
1. What's the effect of the wards in A8? It's mentioned in A8 that a PC may be affected by a compulsion effect that triggers on entering A9, but the actual effect appears to be missing, and it seems like it's a little important!
There's a fascination effect that could easily be classified as a compulsion effect in A9, but it's got its own separate save and triggering effect and it doesn't make sense for the A8 wards to interact with it.
I was about to ask the same question. The whole Path of Damnation is a cool submechanic, but all that to prevent 1d4 rounds of fascination seems a but underwhelming.
2. What's the origin of the corpse in A8? Corpse makes it sound as though there's flesh on those bones, which would be a little much for a Jistkan. Was it intended to be another dead Chelish soldier, whose comrade was lost in A7?
At a guess I'd say he tripped and broke his neck while running away from the guardians in room A9, who are willing to pursue intruders as far as A6.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Question of my own: in A3 there's a door behind the illusory statue of Abadar. Is that door supposed to be hidden? That would make sense; the door isn't mentioned in the box text, and it leads to the part of the complex the Athenaeum is hoping the Pathfinders don't notice.
What with all the secret rooms, I think I'll draw this dungeon on a series of separate papers that I can put down one by one as my players explore it.
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Question of my own: in A3 there's a door behind the illusory statue of Abadar. Is that door supposed to be hidden? That would make sense; the door isn't mentioned in the box text, and it leads to the part of the complex the Athenaeum is hoping the Pathfinders don't notice.
What with all the secret rooms, I think I'll draw this dungeon on a series of separate papers that I can put down one by one as my players explore it.
Can't speak for the author, but it definitely seems like that door is meant to be completely hidden by the illusion.
I'm pulling the map apart into three parts before I print and laminate it: one section for the first three areas; one section for most of the bottom half of the map; and a final section for A10. I've been using Photoshop to clean up the joins where secret doors are supposed to be and add some stained glass to A9. The placement of those double doors in A3 meant I had to redraw part of good ole' Abadar though. I was sad about that. I don't think he's as statuesque as he used to be!
Venture-Agent, Finland—Tampere
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So something minor I'm amused by: Inverness speaks only common in part 1 and in part 2 her only language has switched to Infernal. Also, amused by that "Fights to the death" is said in three different ways.
Anyway, seriously though, this seems like that it is going to be a great one :D
I have one question though, boss is said to avoid killing "child-like" PCs. But what exactly counts as child-like besides pregen Yoon? Like, do all halflings and gnomes count? I personally don't think halflings and gnomes look childlike at all and I don't think kid characters are legal besides Yoon...
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So something minor I'm amused by: Inverness speaks only common in part 1 and in part 2 her only language has switched to Infernal. Also, amused by that "Fights to the death" is said in three different ways.
Anyway, seriously though, this seems like that it is going to be a great one :D
I have one question though, boss is said to avoid killing "child-like" PCs. But what exactly counts as child-like besides pregen Yoon? Like, do all halflings and gnomes count? I personally don't think halflings and gnomes look childlike at all and I don't think kid characters are legal besides Yoon...
They're not! There are, however, halfling traits that specifically make you seem childlike. It seems like that + Yoon would be the easiest thing.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I have one question though, boss is said to avoid killing "child-like" PCs. But what exactly counts as child-like besides pregen Yoon? Like, do all halflings and gnomes count? I personally don't think halflings and gnomes look childlike at all and I don't think kid characters are legal besides Yoon...
I'd say we need to pay especial attention when players are describing their PCs. If the description happens to fit, then that's it.
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Venture-Agent, Finland—Tampere
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They're not! There are, however, halfling traits that specifically make you seem childlike. It seems like that + Yoon would be the easiest thing.So something minor I'm amused by: Inverness speaks only common in part 1 and in part 2 her only language has switched to Infernal. Also, amused by that "Fights to the death" is said in three different ways.
Anyway, seriously though, this seems like that it is going to be a great one :D
I have one question though, boss is said to avoid killing "child-like" PCs. But what exactly counts as child-like besides pregen Yoon? Like, do all halflings and gnomes count? I personally don't think halflings and gnomes look childlike at all and I don't think kid characters are legal besides Yoon...
Huh, I guess thats the best fit then.
And I guess any adult character could look child-like, but I have kinda hard time imagining that I guess
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I just finished running this.
I'm also interested in the intended effect of the compulsion in A8
perhaps I didn't sell it very well, but my players didn't see why the should fight Inverness in the final encounter. so much so that 2 of them surrendered and where therefore imprisoned (and paid the 5pp for a body recovery to have them selves bailed out). am I missing something with this encounter or did I rule that correctly?
No update on the compulsion effect save in A8?
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If a PC completed Pathfinder Society Scenario #7–14: Faithless and Forgotten, Part 1: Let Bygones Be and spotted the raven Inverness while helping Mireille escape, he might recognize Iluvia’s familiar.So, how would you handle this if the PCs killed Inverness in Part 1?
...add scars and stitches to Inverness, while Iluvia is angry and rants about having to call in favors to rez her poor friend who was only doing her job?
Inverness in Part 2 is actually Inverness 2.0? Play up the tactics (staying out of combat) as if she's heard about you crazy people and wants no part in this? (This might actually do an okay job of explaining the difference in languages known.)
I guess those ideas aren't really exclusive to each other, either.
She's a witch, so she doesn't really work without a familiar.
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But its a different familiar it even speaks a different language as if the author was assuming it got killed in part 1 and a new familiar with a witch who isnt good at new names for her familiars! (of course I am in no way official on this just a offering a theory to fit the limited facts)
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...add scars and stitches to Inverness, while Iluvia is angry and rants about having to call in favors to rez her poor friend who was only doing her job?
Killed and ate... (wildshaped into a pterodactyl or something and crit a bite.)
Inverness in Part 2 is actually Inverness 2.0? Play up the tactics (staying out of combat) as if she's heard about you crazy people and wants no part in this? (This might actually do an okay job of explaining the difference in languages known.)
I guess those ideas aren't really exclusive to each other, either.
She's a witch, so she doesn't really work without a familiar.
Yeah, probably. Just looked back at the witch class and she only has to wait a day to replace it, not a month like I thought. Though the particular incident I'm thinking of happened when I played the first one, not when GMing it, I just thought of it when I was preparing to run part 2.
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...add scars and stitches to Inverness, while Iluvia is angry and rants about having to call in favors to rez her poor friend who was only doing her job?Killed and ate... (wildshaped into a pterodactyl or something and crit a bite.)
Yeah, probably. Just looked back at the witch class and she only has to wait a day to replace it, not a month like I thought. Though the particular incident I'm thinking of happened when I played the first one, not when GMing it, I just thought of it when I was preparing to run part 2.Inverness in Part 2 is actually Inverness 2.0? Play up the tactics (staying out of combat) as if she's heard about you crazy people and wants no part in this? (This might actually do an okay job of explaining the difference in languages known.)
I guess those ideas aren't really exclusive to each other, either.
She's a witch, so she doesn't really work without a familiar.
Ouch. Sounds like that bird ain't comin' back no more.
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Hrm. Agreed, I'm running this on Saturday and it would be nice to know what that room is supposed to do. I suppose a good backup option would be to just captivate them by the sheer volume of writing in the room when they enter it. It's... more than a little underwhelming, but at least I can point to something in the scenario and say where it came from, so I'm not making it up.
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That sounds reasonable, but you're basically inventing a trap--so at best it's in a gray area. Other GMs may not be as lenient as you are...
And of course if things go horribly wrong in that room, PCs try to evac, and they're compelled back in and someone kicks the bucket as a result, that's a bad situation to be in.
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Venture-Agent, Pennsylvania—York
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I just ran this Monday night. I decided the compulsion effect was to walk through any remaining wards, item to bypass them or not, and for the PC to subsequently read the text on the floor in A9.
Remember, failing that save... with negative modifiers for however many wards you walked through causes 1d4 rounds of fascination and triggers the Serpent Effigies to attack.
Potential Disaster! Though my players made their saves... *sigh* :-p
Honestly, even at tier 4-5 it wasn't a difficult encounter so I felt no compunction regarding filling in the compulsion effect myself. It seemed a logical next step for a compulsion effect!
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The thing is, if the effigies attack, they'll have to be super-careful not to break the fascination:
Fascinated: A fascinated creature is entranced by a supernatural or spell effect. The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect, for as long as the effect lasts. It takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the fascinated creature a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the fascinated creature, automatically breaks the effect. A fascinated creature's ally may shake it free of the spell as a standard action.
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Ran this on Saturday for a group of 6 that were poorly-suited for it. Although I warned them that they were being commissioned for an archaeological excavation and they should probably consider taking at least one character with some skill in such things, they went in with a bunch of martials and one character with 1 rank in Knowledge:History (for a total mod of +1). The highest PC will save modifier on the card I'd passed around beforehand was a +4 so I was a little nervous about the party even getting past the illusion.
One of the more cringe-worthy bits of this scenario is the random skill test in the first challenge--"would you like to play a game of Siege? Or, you could sing me opera!" Thankfully, once the siege board came out, the gambler took over and attempted a wager for an expedited permit. If he lost the game, I decided that someone would have to sing a Chelish opera. Phew! I don't know if the player read the scenario ahead of time or not, but it seemed to work out perfectly. Just about everyone made their Sense Motive checks and the expert gamer played especially poorly down the stretch to at least make it a close game.
The party was entirely unsuited for the sandstorm. The ride bonuses were almost nonexistent, but a bunch of spectacular rolling kept them just a step ahead. There was some cognitive dissonance for some of the more experienced players who didn't initially think the sandstorm had hit at all, because if it had, they'd probably be taking damage. Perhaps it's something I needed to communicate a little more clearly.
The skeletal champions pretty much went splat. A dexterous telekinetic refastened the tarp. I added a little flavor to the tent massacre with drag marks as if someone had been reading for the potion before being dragged away.
They performed admirably in the early goings; that +1 bonus in History kept them in it as the player didn't roll below a 17 for any of the checks they needed him for. In the final staged room, they didn't detect magic anything and missed the ring; they removed all the gold foil from the statues but didn't investigate them further. As the other players (with very poor will saves, rolled behind the screen) sized up the gold statue and pondered how to get it home, the late-joining Seelah pregen made her will save and correctly surmised that it wasn't quite real and wasn't quite there. Good for them!
Past that point, things were a little less risky for them. They couldn't identify the ivory baton, although they did fix it (not that they had any idea what it was afterwards, even!). They eventually figured out what they needed to bypass the trap and that they had missed something, so they backtracked and found the ring. The mummified corpse was telekinesis'd. However, they didn't "strongly present" any of the gear, so moving forward through the trap resulted in a series of four will saves for everyone. Not knowing what the trap was supposed to do, I tied it into the existing writing trap. As they came through one by one, they kept getting fascinated and eating up rounds in the penultimate room until the effigies attacked. They were quickly dealt with.
They found the secret door pretty easily, didn't make the linguistics check to grok the rationale behind the workspace, and made their escape.
In the final encounter, the witch was very nearly one-shot, so for her brief moment of glory she lightning-bolted two players and an owlbear companion before forcibly kicking the bucket. A pair of size-large greataxe-wielders provided a bit of challenge and drama, bringing a third character to within a couple rounds of death, but the battle didn't go too long. They quickly found the secret room and hid there while the museum was searched and then fled in the night.
This is definitely skill-heavy and I think my group was carried through to the primary objective almost entirely on the backs of their dice, but no matter! They had fun, and it's a pretty well-structured scenario. I just wish I had something better to do for that trap.
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Yeah, the group I GMed had much the same issues (Season of the Skillcheck!) but managed to squeak through and identify 4 out of 5 thanks to the fact that the Lorewarden had put all his ranks into K: History. However it's the first group I have ever GMed where no-one had the ability to cast detect magic.
I assume the "uncharacteristic string of attacks" in Corentyn has ended by the time of this adventure. The players reminded me of the ban on large weapons from Part 1 but it wasn't anywhere in the scenario. The final encounter would be really nasty with nothing but light weapons!
I just ran this on Saturday, and had a pretty good time with it.
I ran tier 1-2 with the following PCs:
1st level half-orc bard
1st level half-elf occultist
1st level dwarf barbarian
1st level gnome alchemist
1st level wayang rogue
The bard and the occultist both had pretty decent Knowledge checks, so they were pretty well covered there.
Two of them (the occultist and the alchemist) had already done FaFI, and it flowed pretty well from the first scenario, though it wasn't all that clear why Zefiro wasn't in trouble already if his co-worker was (my PCs assumed that he would be fleeing with her from the Hellknights).
The encounter with the magistrate was IMO kind of terrible. Lots of pointless skill checks that don't do much, and derail the scenario if the PCs don't pass enough of them. I don't care for that design. It also didn't make much sense that if Cheliax and the Society have both given the PCs permission to go and do this, why does a local dignitary need to be convinced to allow it? The whole plot is that Cheliax wants the PCs to go there and be convinced that it's a Taldan colony, after all.
Things worked out fine once they got into the dungeon proper. A few took a few points of nonlethal damage from the sandstorm, and the skeletons inside were pretty easily dispatched. The wayang rogue had no trouble securing the tarp, as he couldn't really hurt the skeletons anyway, as he was a knife-rogue fighting DR 5/bludgeoning skeletons.
The bard spent pretty much the whole dungeon session re-casting detect magic, so they found the various ward keys easily. The statue of Aroden was a bit of a puzzle as they rolled badly on their Will saves.
They did well on their Kn (History) checks throughout, and found all the forgeries. So good on that front.
The descent through the layers of Hell was fun, though I was a bit worried when someone proposed setting the nasty oily water that you're supposed to jump across on fire (What would THAT have done? The stuff is clearly flammable, since it catches fire if you take fire damage.)
The fight with the construct was pretty brutal; I rolled at or near max damage twice with the 2d6 damage eye bolt, and dropped both the barbarian and the alchemist. The party ran into the secret corridor (which both the rogue and the barbarian spotted straight off) and the fight was mostly there. The ivory rod and the occultist managed to give them enough time to get the alchemist and barbarian back on their feet. Once they got the barbarian back up and swinging the thing didn't last too long, though. DR 2/- doesn't last that long against a raging, power-attacking barbarian.
The fight back at the museum was pretty nasty as well. Personally, I like having fewer, more meaningful combats, so this works well for me. I had Iluvia stay up on the balcony, opening with a swarm of spiders that rolled toward the PCs and down the library corridor for the rest of the fight. The alchemist and occultist took care of that with some fire, which obviously set the library on fire, which they had to deal with. A raven-delivered Inflict Moderate Wounds dropped another PC, making this one of the more dangerous sessions I've had; he was only one or two points away from death. Fortunately a combination of spells and a nasty crit from the barbarian took out the bad guys, and it all worked out well in the end.
I enjoyed this module quite a bit; the only real issue I had with it was the unnecessarily game-y and artificial section with the magistrate.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I'm hoping to use the magistrate to signal that Chelish bureaucracy is a hydra, not a single-headed dragon. It doesn't think with a single mind, and often contradicts itself.
Later on, it turns out that the Athenaeum in the capital was planning to use the pathfinders as stooges to make their historical claim on Khari credible. But that almost gets foiled by this local hellknight who's trying to arrest those pathfinders.
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Regarding the compulsion effect that triggers when area A9 is entered:
I've extrapolated my best guess as to this effect based upon the given information and I believe it to be hold person (hold monster in Subtier 4-5).
Why?
We know it's a compulsion effect; hold person and hold monster are both compulsions. We know it's a DC 14 Will save to negate (DC 17 in Subtier 4-5); those saves would be consistent with the saves for hold person and hold monster, respectively. The corpse splayed across the upper steps leading into area A9 appears to have been unable to defend itself or escape from having its neck snapped and its head nearly torn from its body; that manner of death would certainly be consistent with a coup de grace taken upon a paralyzed creature.
Does anyone see an issue with running it this way until there's an official clarification?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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That fits the evidence, and those spells are sufficiently scary to be worth all the work to avoid them. They're also not insurmountable if they happen (initial saves, new saves, Remove Paralysis, twitch tonic).
I hesitate to just make such a decision myself though, in light of the "run as written" principle, which aims at not adding "your own extra difficulty".
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I agree with Lau, that's totally consistent with the evidence but not so much with "run as written." And there are a couple of effects that would be consistent--off the top of my head, it could also have been lesser/full confusion for example. I don't think we should be picking which of those options we like best, for consistency's sake.
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I agree. I don't want to choose an effect that isn't explicitly called out by name in the scenario. But as of now, the only option is to run with no compulsion effect. Therefore, traversing the Path of Damnation with or without the animal token relics has the same outcome: the arcane runes dim for a minute (and nothing else); it's a trap/puzzle with no reward and no consequence.
We have four tables of this scenario being played this weekend at our FLGS; I'll ask the other GMs how they plan to handle this situation, but it would be nice to get an official ruling.
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This is independent of the tier you're running at and has the same DC as the initial DC for the wards in Area 8.
Not quite the same DC. In the lower subtier, it is the same (DC 14 Will save). But in the higher subtier, there is a difference (DC 17 Will save listed in area A8 vs. DC 16 Will save for the runes in area A9). That would lead me to believe they're supposed to be two different effects.
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You're not missing anything, Robertness, except for all of the posts earlier in the thread asking and talking about the same thing. :)
When I ran it, I had the PCs stare at the pretty pretty writing, since at least that effect was in the scenario and I didn't have to make it up. It seemed marginally better than having the PCs make 4 will saves each and then have nothing happen.
It's clearly supposed to be a separate effect, though, we just don't know what.
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Barring any official word, I'm thinking of handing each player who fails the saves in area A8 a private note when they enter area A9 which reads:
"You've failed your Will save against a compulsion effect.
Unfortunately, due to an editing error, the specifics of that effect have been omitted from the scenario. If you'd like to roleplay this compulsion, some possible effects might be deep slumber or hold person, but feel free to roleplay any compulsion of your choosing; it can end whenever you like.
Or you can simply ignore this note."
Thoughts?
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It might work with your group's sentiments, but it would get me some really weird looks from mine for breaking immersion. And there's the whole "I'm confused!" problem...
/barbarian's player rolls 4 on d4
/barbarian's player's character attacks, threatens, confirms, kills nearby wizard
/wizard's player goes "THAT'S NOT FAIR!"
A full response might be out of my pay grade, but it's not the kind of approach I would take.
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Like I said, the thing I did was have them be fascinated by the existing trap.
Choosing to read or examine the runes should be an act of free will that could potentially result in the character becoming fascinated. Forcing a save and eliminating the choice changes the encounter and isn't supported by what's published.
Until there's an official clarification, the only purpose area A8 serves is to potentially trick a player into using their shirt or folio reroll.