Non-twin TWF - Is there *any* support?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I recall in 3.X there was a splat book that included some feat options that made pairing different weapons actually somewhat attractive (I can't remember for the life of me which book though).

For instance, TWFing with an Axe/Knife combo. Or Longsword/Dirk. Etc.

Does *anything at all* exist like this in PF?


Thunder and Fang is the only one I can think of

Still, in general none are as popular wielding two of the same weapon, mostly because you don't have to spend extra feats such as Weapon Focus. Mechanically there isn't a huge benefit to most, though Thunder and Fang is an exception since it allows you to retain your shield bonus while using it as a weapon.


You can do that out of the box, though at some serious penalties, if the 'offhand' isn't light. You'd better get the two-weapon-fighting feat as well.

see the table Two-Weapon fighting penalties in the Combat section (near the bottom of the page)


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DM Sothal wrote:

You can do that out of the box, though at some serious penalties, if the 'offhand' isn't light. You'd better get the two-weapon-fighting feat as well.

see the table Two-Weapon fighting penalties in the Combat section (near the bottom of the page)

I believe he is aware that he can do it out of the box.

He's looking for feats or abilities specifically tailored to help you TWF with different weapons as opposed to using the same weapon, that would actually encourage one to do so.

So, like Thunder and Fang I mentioned. It allows you to wield an Earthbreaker one handed (normally two-handed weapon so bigger damage dice) and wield a klar as a weapon while retaining it's shield bonus, for the price of one feat (beyond weapon foci).


Ah... How about Net and Trident

Or Sword and Pistol


Humans can take Martial Versatility and Mastery to apply combat feats to multiple weapons.

Similarly, the Weapon Specialist AWT will let you use combat feats with a whole weapon group.

Fighter's weapon Training gives bonuses to whole weapon groups.

These abilities would let you TWF with different weapons, so long as they are in the same group, and apply the feats to both.

Lantern Lodge

Some 3rd party support (Kobold) in Shaft and Shield

And Near and Far to go with it.

Scarab Sages

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You can also have the same effect with some of the double weapons. Hook Hammer and Urgosh both give the effect of fighting with two different weapons without needing two sets of weapon feats.


The basic TWF rules already encourage to combine an one-handed weapon with a light one. Combining two one-handed ones or two light ones is slightly weaker by default - feats (and class abilities etc.) can change that, though.

Some feats were already listed, I'd add Opening Volley to the mix: Hit with a ranged attack (e.g. hand crossbow) for a +4 bonus on next melee attack.

Finally, as a Medium sized creature you can use a Small two-handed reach weapon together with a normal light one. It means a -2 penalty to attack (main-hand only or any, depending on ruling), but has no special feat requirements. Further, remember you may do a 5-foot step during a full-attack. I am not aware of any option to reduce the penalty though. Consider it an alternative to a combination of whip and normal weapon...


You are right different weapons in twf is not really encouraged, hopefully pazio explore it down the line.

But effortless lace is a neat trick for use with two of the same one handed weapon an oversized main hand and light offhand. But that's a side thought would make it feel like your weilding different weapons, thinking bastard swords... Feronia's favored weapon BTW.

Scarab Sages

I really like a one-handed weapon with a cestus. You have the option of two-handing the main weapon, or using your off hand for casting, and still have the option to TWF.


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SheepishEidolon wrote:

The basic TWF rules already encourage to combine an one-handed weapon with a light one. Combining two one-handed ones or two light ones is slightly weaker by default - feats (and class abilities etc.) can change that, though.

Some feats were already listed, I'd add Opening Volley to the mix: Hit with a ranged attack (e.g. hand crossbow) for a +4 bonus on next melee attack.

Finally, as a Medium sized creature you can use a Small two-handed reach weapon together with a normal light one. It means a -2 penalty to attack (main-hand only or any, depending on ruling), but has no special feat requirements. Further, remember you may do a 5-foot step during a full-attack. I am not aware of any option to reduce the penalty though. Consider it an alternative to a combination of whip and normal weapon...

Two light weapons is only weaker at very early levels.

The best weapon for TWF (if you were automatically proficient) is the Sawtooth Saber, but almost everyone has to spend a feat to be proficient. It deals 1d8 with a 19-20x2 crit range.

Daggers deals 1d4 19-20x2, but are simple weapons so no feat required. The difference here is 1d4 vs 1d8, which is 2.5 vs 4.5. River Rat trait brings daggers up to 3.5, for only a trait. Deific Obedience for Pharasma can increase attack rolls by 2, which is worth about 4 points of damage by DPR calculations.

Overall, what weapon you wield while TWF tends not to matter as much as all the static bonuses and everything else you will add on to it. Thus it is much more ideal to do things like weapon focus which affect both your weapons, and why the OP made this thread to ask if there are any viable reasons to fight with two different weapons.

Sovereign Court

Claxon wrote:
The best weapon for TWF (if you were automatically proficient) is the Sawtooth Saber, but almost everyone has to spend a feat to be proficient. It deals 1d8 with a 19-20x2 crit range.

While true at lower levels, as you level up the wakizashi's 1d6/18-20 eventually gives it the edge. (pun intended) I'm not sure how they'd stack up against daggers with River Rat & Deific Obedience for Pharasma - too many variables to make a definitive choice other than with a specific build & target AC.


Achaekek's favored weapon is Sawtooth saber can again help builds also Shizuru gives katana. With this and effortless lace you warrior clerics might have fun.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Claxon wrote:
The best weapon for TWF (if you were automatically proficient) is the Sawtooth Saber, but almost everyone has to spend a feat to be proficient. It deals 1d8 with a 19-20x2 crit range.
While true at lower levels, as you level up the wakizashi's 1d6/18-20 eventually gives it the edge. (pun intended) I'm not sure how they'd stack up against daggers with River Rat & Deific Obedience for Pharasma - too many variables to make a definitive choice other than with a specific build & target AC.

Sorry, you have a point I was thinking of it from the perspective of a rogue who has little value from crit range. Consider the following though.

Kukri is also a 1d4 18-20x2 crit range weapon that doesn't require a feat for exotic weapon proficiency, though it does require martial weapon proficiency.

If you have only simple weapon proficiency (rogue) you go daggers, the extra crit range isn't valuable. Most everyone else should take kukris, the 1d4 vs 1d6 isn't relevant between kukri and wakizashi.

If you're spending a feat for an exotic proficiency....don't? It's usually not worth it. For ninja, since you get wakkizashi for free go for it. And if you're a Samurai that's going to TWF, again go for since you don't need to spend the feat. Everyone else....not worth it.

Lantern Lodge

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Claxon wrote:
The best weapon for TWF (if you were automatically proficient) is the Sawtooth Saber, but almost everyone has to spend a feat to be proficient. It deals 1d8 with a 19-20x2 crit range.
While true at lower levels, as you level up the wakizashi's 1d6/18-20 eventually gives it the edge. (pun intended) I'm not sure how they'd stack up against daggers with River Rat & Deific Obedience for Pharasma - too many variables to make a definitive choice other than with a specific build & target AC.

If you don't want to spend limited resources on proficiency with an exotic weapon, the kukri is almost as good.

Wakizashi (P or S) 1d6 18–20/×2 is exotic
Kukri (S) 1d4 18–20/×2 is martial.

Claxon beat me to it.

Crit range is really cool if you have Butterfly Sting and/or Outflank.


Kukri/Pick with Butterfly Sting is an amusing combo. Open up with a keen kukri as your offhand, and if you land a crit, defer it to your x4 mainhand.

Liberty's Edge

Lord Monty wrote:
With this and effortless lace you warrior clerics might have fun.

Effortless Lace says "the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons." Two Weapon Fighting feat doesn't have any weapon requirements to use it, it just lowers the penalties when using the two weapon fighting rules. And because it's the two weapon fighting rules that tell you what penalties you take, effortless lace doesn't come into play, so it does very little for the build, except for allowing weapon finesse on both weapons, and allowing piranha strike for both weapons. Considering you should be using a light weapon in both hands, that's practically nothing.


Spear Dancing Stule Allows TWF with spears and polearms, allowing for a very unique take on the fighting style. Spinning, slashing and bashing with your weapon at various reaches with weapons varying from the Elven Branched Spear to a Nodachi.

Also, there are several feats that end up rewarding the good ol' fashioned Sword&Shield style. Shield bash, shield slam, Bashing Finish and Shield Master. There's also apparently a new shield weilding style coming on the Armor Master's Handbook.


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Deighton Thrane wrote:
Lord Monty wrote:
With this and effortless lace you warrior clerics might have fun.
Effortless Lace says "the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons." Two Weapon Fighting feat doesn't have any weapon requirements to use it, it just lowers the penalties when using the two weapon fighting rules. And because it's the two weapon fighting rules that tell you what penalties you take, effortless lace doesn't come into play, so it does very little for the build, except for allowing weapon finesse on both weapons, and allowing piranha strike for both weapons. Considering you should be using a light weapon in both hands, that's practically nothing.

That is an incredibly subjective distinction. It seems you're arguing that weapons are not "used in conjunction" with TWF? TWF's entire purpose and language tells you what happens when you use such and such a type of weapon in an off hand. Any feat, spell or special weapon ability that mentions needing or having its effect altered by the fact that the weapon is light is affected by effortless lace.


Random question: if you were Dragoon fighter archetype with Spear Dancing feat would that let you attack with both ends of each spear in each hand once you get that ability at I think level 7?

Liberty's Edge

Davic The Grey wrote:
That is an incredibly subjective distinction. It seems you're arguing that weapons are not "used in conjunction" with TWF? TWF's entire purpose and language tells you what happens when you use such and such a type of weapon in an off hand. Any feat, spell or special weapon ability that mentions needing or having its effect altered by the fact that the weapon is light is affected by effortless lace.

Well, I would argue that the item allows you to use weapon finesse, as well as feats, spells and special weapon abilities that require a light weapon, even if you're using a one handed weapon. Because that's certainly what it seems to say. But looking a little further, it seems that Alexander Augunas did intend for the item to affect two weapon fighting, opening up options. So even though I don't think it says that, it's not the first item/ability that isn't phrased well. And I would go with the author's intent over however it ends up worded, because word count and editing can do weird things to technical writing, which isn't exactly easy to begin with. So yeah, effortless lace should work.


Frosty Ace wrote:
Spear Dancing Stule Allows TWF with spears and polearms, allowing for a very unique take on the fighting style. Spinning, slashing and bashing with your weapon at various reaches with weapons varying from the Elven Branched Spear to a Nodachi.

Spear Dancing style removes reach from the weapon wielded, right? Though you could grip the weapon "normally" and ignore Spear Dancing when doing those sometimes-necessary standard attacks and then use it when going full attack. Or am I missing something?


Deighton Thrane wrote:
Davic The Grey wrote:
That is an incredibly subjective distinction. It seems you're arguing that weapons are not "used in conjunction" with TWF? TWF's entire purpose and language tells you what happens when you use such and such a type of weapon in an off hand. Any feat, spell or special weapon ability that mentions needing or having its effect altered by the fact that the weapon is light is affected by effortless lace.
Well, I would argue that the item allows you to use weapon finesse, as well as feats, spells and special weapon abilities that require a light weapon, even if you're using a one handed weapon. Because that's certainly what it seems to say. But looking a little further, it seems that Alexander Augunas did intend for the item to affect two weapon fighting, opening up options. So even though I don't think it says that, it's not the first item/ability that isn't phrased well. And I would go with the author's intent over however it ends up worded, because word count and editing can do weird things to technical writing, which isn't exactly easy to begin with. So yeah, effortless lace should work.

Good job finding Augunas's comment. Good to note it isn't pfs legal as Augunas says but it is powerful enough to consider for any home game. I might play with it in one of my future builds.


Unchained Barbarian seems like it could be OK for TWF since Unchained Rage gives you a flat bonus to melee attacks and damage kind of like if Weapon Training worked with every weapon. The fact the attack bonus isn't Str based seems like it could also be nice for high Dex TWF builds.


Blymurkla wrote:
Spear Dancing style removes reach from the weapon wielded, right? Though you could grip the weapon "normally" and ignore Spear Dancing when doing those sometimes-necessary standard attacks and then use it when going full attack. Or am I missing something?

Sorry. My mind often operates under the assumption of completing a style fully. Spear Dancing Reach let's you TWF with reach with either one or both ends of the weapon till the end of your turn, and for the sake of showing the whole tree, Spear Dancing Spiral allows for you to finesse with the chosen weapon (As in two handed for attacking on the move or for AoOs) making a dex build pretty solid.

Hell, throw in Spear Dancer for the full course Deadly Dancer meal.


Frosty Ace wrote:
Blymurkla wrote:
Spear Dancing style removes reach from the weapon wielded, right? Though you could grip the weapon "normally" and ignore Spear Dancing when doing those sometimes-necessary standard attacks and then use it when going full attack. Or am I missing something?

Sorry. My mind often operates under the assumption of completing a style fully. Spear Dancing Reach let's you TWF with reach with either one or both ends of the weapon till the end of your turn, and for the sake of showing the whole tree, Spear Dancing Spiral allows for you to finesse with the chosen weapon (As in two handed for attacking on the move or for AoOs) making a dex build pretty solid.

Hell, throw in Spear Dancer for the full course Deadly Dancer meal.

Where exactly does TWF come into play? this entire style only seems to talk about using a two handed weapon as a double-weapon, not use two of them....

Liberty's Edge

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M1k31 wrote:
Where exactly does TWF come into play? this entire style only seems to talk about using a two handed weapon as a double-weapon, not use two of them....

Fighting with both ends of a double weapon follows the TWF rules.


Depending on the build, split-weapon TWF isn't necessarily "inefficient". Mainhand/single attacks usually make up a significant majority of total attacks, so having a stronger mainhand weapon for the majority of attacks is quite possibly worth losing out a little on an offhand.

There's also some fun - if probably mildly inefficient - combos where you drop selective feats on two different weapons; like worshipping Pharasma with Deific Obedience to nicely buff an offhand dagger while otherwise using a strong mainhand weapon.


Devilkiller wrote:
Unchained Barbarian seems like it could be OK for TWF since Unchained Rage gives you a flat bonus to melee attacks and damage kind of like if Weapon Training worked with every weapon. The fact the attack bonus isn't Str based seems like it could also be nice for high Dex TWF builds.

I've been playing around with the idea of a goblin unchained barbarian / unchained rogue focusing on TWF and sneak attacks. My next melee-based character will either be that or a dwarven warpriest.


The biggest inefficiency is in the feats, really. It would be cool to have some sort of style feats that focus on weapons - rapier and main gauche or katana and wakazashi or tomakawk and knife. I'm sure that there are other classical combinations. But this isn't the homebrew forum.

Scarab Sages

There is only inefficiency in feats if you take weapon specific feats. Non-fighters would normally only take weapon focus or improved critical, but you could take other feats instead and have no loss in effectiveness on your off hand.


Ok not wanting to repeat myself but... again in terms of flavor two katanas twf both with effortless lace and the main one oversized basically is classic katana and wakazashi but actually rulewise better damage.

My point is get inventive in describing and fleshing out your characters. Given time I'm sure pazio will add more feats to help meet your needs but only when they deem it in character to their Golarian setting(e.g the dragon kingdoms getting a full book), till then I think we have to be inventive and simply work around it.


Split-weapon builds are an excuse to get creative. Create a Samurai with one level of Master of Many Styles and Dragon Style. Make single attacks with two-handed katana, mainhand attacks with one-handed katana, and offhand attacks with Dragon Style Monk Unarmed Strike - one-handed Power Attack and a major strength bonus without needing Double Slice. Thanks to Dragon Ferocity all criticals inflict stackable shaken, which plays off a katana very nicely. You're spending resources two ways, but the final effect seriously out-classes dual wakizashi.

Liberty's Edge

Doesn't a large sized katana still need to be wielded in 2 hands, even with effortless lace? It reduces the penalty for doing so, but a large one handed weapon is still wielded as a 2 handed weapon by a medium creature isn't it? Or do I need to go look up effortless lace again.


You can wield oversized two handed weapons without needing three hands. A certain iconic barbarian does just this. So logic holds you use them that way... The lace was designed to make use of giant magic items and help twf so I'd assume that makes sense...

Edit: no your right. She's weilding a large bastard sword. Titan Mauler was designed to offer this trick so ignore me on the main hand lace idea.

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