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I find the Giant template a bit difficult to understand; it seems it grants you +4 to Str and Con, and your size also increases to the next category. Therefore, shouldn't you *also* get +8 to Str and +4 to Con, if this template is applied to a medium-sized creature? Or do you have to choose?
For example, would a Giant Orc warrior have STR 25 (+8 from new size), STR 21 (+4 from the template), or 29 (+8 from new size, +4 from the template)?
I find this a bit confusing, because +12 to STR from a template is a lot; however, on the other hand, +4 feels like it's not really a "giant" version of the creature.
How does it work?
According to its quick rules the creature only gets +2 to Str based rolls and hit points, fitting to +4 score bonuses. So the +4 bonus overrides the usual gain from increased size.
Compared to advanced template, the creature gets slightly more damage (bigger weapon dice) and (probably more importantly) more reach. In many cases, I'd consider the advanced template stronger though - better attack bonus (no size penalty), higher AC (+2 natural, +2 Dex mod, +0 size vs. +3 natural, -1 Dex mod, -1 size) and less trouble to move in a narrow battlefield.
Hence +8 Str (altogether) for giant template seems like a reasonable houserule. It makes PC's survival more dependant on dice luck, though - if such a creature hits, it hits hard.
Giant Creature (+1)
Creatures with the giant template are larger and stronger than their normal-sized kin. This template cannot be applied to creatures that are Colossal.
Quick Rules: +2 to all rolls based on Str or Con, +2 hp/HD, –1 penalty on all rolls based on Dex.
Rebuild Rules: Size increase by one category; AC increase natural armor by +3; Attacks increase dice rolled by 1 step; Ability Scores +4 size bonus to Str and Con, –2 Dex.
Note that the quick rules does not the creature a size increase..
The rebuild rules do, though.Each gives the creature what it says and nothing else.
They are not applied together.
The magic rules for a polymorph effect which changes size do not apply to the bestiary rules for the giant template.
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Thanks for the replies! Indeed, it seems that you only get +4 to Str and Con, regardless of the fact that Advanced template gives you +4 to *all* stats. And yet both are +1 CR, although one is noticeably better than the other.
I tried this with the monster builder on D20pfsrd.com; it seems a Giant orc warrior has Str 25, gaining +8 to its Str from the template. So maybe I'm no the only one confused by that "size increase by one category" bit?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'd report that as a bug on the site. While d20pfsrd is in general a pretty useful site, they do take the most liberal interpretations a fair amount of the time.
although one is noticeably better than the other
You mean the Giant one is noticeably better?
Because increasing in size is often better than +4 to Dex, Int, Wis, Cha.
Thanks for the replies! Indeed, it seems that you only get +4 to Str and Con, regardless of the fact that Advanced template gives you +4 to *all* stats. And yet both are +1 CR, although one is noticeably better than the other.
The +3 AC is also nice, but gaining extra reach is the real draw for the Giant simple template.
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Thanks for the replies! Indeed, it seems that you only get +4 to Str and Con, regardless of the fact that Advanced template gives you +4 to *all* stats. And yet both are +1 CR, although one is noticeably better than the other.The +3 AC is also nice, but gaining extra reach is the real draw for the Giant simple template.
Heh, Advanced template actually gives you +4 to AC (+4 to dex and +2 natural armor bonus). Reach is nice, but you get the same benefit with reach weapons. ;)
IMO, becoming large without the "usual" bonuses (+8 to str and +4 to dex) actually penalizes you; you get -1 to attacks and AC. Well, all in all you get +1 to attacks and +2 to AC, but I don't consider that to be even remotely as good as what you get from the Advanced template.
I agree the Advanced template is better, but the CR system doesn't handle a +0.68 CR template, or whatever. And neither Advanced nor Giant is anywhere near as good as Half-Dragon, for example.
P.S. You can stack Giant size reach with a reach weapon, too, for extra-extra reach!