Asmodean advocate archetype and feats / bonuses

[Morgan Coldsoul]

The Asmodean advocate cleric archetype (from Dirty Tactics Toolbox) has the following ability:

Devil in the Details:

At 1st level, an Asmodean advocate learns to choose her words so carefully that even when she says something designed to deceive listeners, the words are phrased to be technically true. She can use her Profession (barrister) skill for Bluff and Diplomacy checks. This benefit also extends to her familiar. The Asmodean advocate gains an insight bonus equal to 1/2 her cleric level (minimum +1) on Linguistics checks related to forgeries and on all Profession (barrister) checks.

The question is, do bonuses which apply specifically to Bluff/Diplomacy checks (such as that from the Persuasive feat) still apply when the cleric substitutes Profession (barrister)? I can see how someone might rule either way. On the one hand, the bonus (from the feat, in this case) specifically applies only to Diplomacy checks; but on the other, you still are making a Diplomacy check, aren't you—just using Profession to do so?

The possibility of a ruling going either direction makes feats like Rhetorical Flourish a bit more complicated. I feel like, since the archetype is obviously meant to be one used by tricky, deceptive, fast-talking characters, it surely can't be the designers' intent to give the class an ability like this and then lock them out of benefiting from stuff like Rhetorical Flourish, Antagonize, and similar. But, I can hear some players claiming that this class feature could get OP quickly, with the insight bonus and all.

[Fernn]

I had an almost similar question in which Using Devil in the details benefits a character while using the feint tactic.

Mostly because DiTD, says whenever you make a bluff check, you instead use a pro(barrister)

I have also seen some threads on ways to increase the Pro(barrister) to full effect.
Such ways found various ways to get bonuses to the skill of barrister, and not their individual skills of bluff or diplomacy.

So instead of taking the "persuasive feat"
It would make more sense to get the "prodigy" feat instead.

Also instead of taking skill focus (bluff) you would take skill focus (profession Barrister) and kill two birds with one stone.

SO, to answer your question, bonus to bluff, are less effective than those to barrister.

when making a bluff check, there are certain DC's to beat.
Bluff bonuses would add to the check of that roll. So you do benefit from skill focus bluff and persuasive, but its less optimal to spec into all bluff, instead of all barrister.

[Fernn]

Also for added shenanigans, you could very well take a 1 level dip into the heretic inquisitor archetype and add your wisdom modifier to stealth and BLUFF CHECKS, in addition to your normal ability scores.

Not to mention, you can use the "Create a Diversion to Hide"
under the stealth rules with your profession barrister.
Which I would think would play out something like

"Hey enemy over there, it would be a damn shame if you did not check underneath the crate over there in the corner for the intruder.

The legal repercussion that your superior would rain upon you would not be favorable to your total allotment of freedom and happiness while under his rule.

IS the intruder really there? That I can not say for certain. If he is not there, then that is one place you do not have to worry about looking, on the other hand, if he is there then you will certainly gain goodwill and credibility from not only your peers, but also your superiors.

Well, do no worry who I am, or what I am doing here, I am just trying to act in your best interest and see you succeed in the evil hierarchy we live in today."

Proceed to hide.

[Mikko Kallio]

I designed the archetype, but some changes were made in development (and Paizo owns the archetype anyway), so my opinion is not an official truth by any means.

Anyway, as far as I can tell, skill substitution abilities like DitD allow you to use a different skill than what you would normally use in a given situation. DitD allows you to attempt a Profession (barrister) check whenever you'd normally attempt a Bluff check. Therefore, the Persuasive feat's bonus would apply only when you're actually using Bluff or Diplomacy, not when you're using skill substitution.

Rhetorical Flourish should work fine with the ability, though. Each time the feat mentions Bluff or Diplomacy, you'll just use Profession (barrister) instead. It's true that the prerequisites (Cha 13, Persuasive) won't be very useful for an Asmodean Advocate using the feat, and unfortunately, DitD doesn't allow you to swap the prereqs for something that the character would benefit from.

That said, allowing the character to benefit from the feat (or use different prereqs) would be a perfectly reasonable house rule, in my opinion.

EDIT: Actually, if a check to feint or lie (for example) using Profession (barrister) still counted as a Bluff check, then the insight bonus from the archetype would not apply because it only applies to Linguistics checks related to forgeries and Profession (barrister) checks. That seems quite counterintuitive, so I think my interpretation is correct. The devil's in the details... :-)

[Morgan Coldsoul]

Thanks for the feedback! I'm especially glad to hear from a designer on this (lucky me!). My confusion mostly arose from the wording and what effect that has on how the ability actually operates; as I said, I could see an argument going either way. This makes it a bit clearer, though. Much appreciated. :)

[X Texasaur]

I was just trying to figure this out the other day. My interpretation is as follows (please correct me if I am wrong)

1- You have the Skill (and its ranks) + any flat bouses to the skill (ie 1/2 level to the skill).

2- Bonuses to the 'Check'. The check being the action its self. Example +2 bonus to diplomacy 'checks', from traits , racials, etc.

I may use Barrister 'skill' for the diplomacy 'check' along with any bonuses to the 'check' from other sources. The text does not say 'make a barrister/profession check' instead of a diplomacy check.

It says use the 'skill' whicb would entail the barrister profession rating for the diplomacy 'check.'

Side note, Circlet of Persuasion gives a bonus to Charima based 'checks'. Diplomacy is a Charismas based 'check' so I should br able to use its bonis for Diplomacy substituting/using my barrister skill rating for the 'check'

Again, this was my interpretation, I am looking for clarification like everyone else. Thanks!

[Casual Viking]

Any interpretation that hinges on "bluff check" and "bluff skill check" being substantially different things, intentionally distinct, is on very shaky ground.

[X Texasaur]

I suppose that specific skill 'check' bonuses only apply to that skill, regardless of a substituted skill.

It just unfortunate that the Bluff Bonus from the Snake Familiar will not stack with the Profession Barrister Checks that you use in place of a Bluff Checks.

[X Texasaur]

It appears that James Jacobs weighed in on this issue execpt in regards to the Bard's versitile performance. DitD could be considered a Versitle Profession I suppose.

"Situaltional Bonuses" to Diplomacy and Buff would apply to Skill Checks using Profession: Barrister. This of course would be within reason and discretion of GM.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz1ij4?Rules-Clarification-Bardic-Versatile-Perfo rmance#25