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The general consensus from what I've read is that none of the unchained versions of classes changed tier.
Unchained Barbarian is a lateral move from core barbarian. Some abilities are tweaked in the way their math works and how they interact with other abilities, but it mostly washes out.
Unchained Monk is unambiguously better than core Monk, but so were all of the good Monk archetypes, and those archetypes are illegal with UMonk. As a result, the UMonk really didn't improve the Monk at all since it just locks you out of the best published material. It might come into its own later as more archetypes are published for it, but for the time being it's just a viable option and nothing special. It certainly is worlds better than core unarchetyped Monk, but that's not a very high bar.
Unchained Rogue is a little more controversial. Some people think it rose from tier 5 to tier 4 due to its buff, and others disagree. There are two big contentions with URogue. The first issue is that all of its new class features can either be replicated by or are largely comparable to existing feat options. The second is that it's locked into a very specific fighting style and has no means to diversify. Like the UMonk, opinions may change as new archetypes are released to trade out class features on the unchained class, but until then it's very one-dimensional in terms of what you can build. Speaking of Rogue archetypes, though, the recent Eldritch Scoundrel archetype will definitely be a higher tier than any existing Rogue. Go read up on it; it really is unprecedented.
Lastly, we have the Unchained Summoner. This one was mostly a nerf on the Summoner, notably raising the level of many influential spells on his spell list. Similar to the URogue situation this wasn't enough of a change to actually move it a full tier. Most people aren't aware of this, but the biggest factor making Summoner tier 2 to begin with its Summon Monster spell-like ability, and that wasn't touched at all in his unchained version. Given that everything else is still functional even if slightly nerfed, the consensus is that he's still tier 2.
As for the DSP martial adepts, my understanding is that they're all tier 3.
Speaking of Tiers, which tier would be a hypothetical (core) Fighter + Rogue "gestalt class (best from both tables)" belong in?
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Speaking of Tiers, which tier would be a hypothetical (core) Fighter + Rogue "gestalt class (best from both tables)" belong in?
By my estimate, it'd be probably mid-high Tier 4. The feats give a lot of versatility plus the skills, although it's all a very mundane level of versatility. They can solve both of the problems that the other can, although URogue and Fighter aren't the best mix unless you're dex fighting. It might make it up to T3 if you can take archetypes for the fighter side of the equation though, as the additional push could really help make a very viable and cool character.
Huh, why would this be moved to the "Third Party" forums, of all places?
Speaking of Tiers, which tier would be a hypothetical (core) Fighter + Rogue "gestalt class (best from both tables)" belong in?By my estimate, it'd be probably mid-high Tier 4. The feats give a lot of versatility plus the skills, although it's all a very mundane level of versatility. They can solve both of the problems that the other can, although URogue and Fighter aren't the best mix unless you're dex fighting. It might make it up to T3 if you can take archetypes for the fighter side of the equation though, as the additional push could really help make a very viable and cool character.
Thanks for the answer!
Speaking of Tiers, which tier would be a hypothetical (core) Fighter + Rogue "gestalt class (best from both tables)" belong in?By my estimate, it'd be probably mid-high Tier 4. The feats give a lot of versatility plus the skills, although it's all a very mundane level of versatility. They can solve both of the problems that the other can, although URogue and Fighter aren't the best mix unless you're dex fighting. It might make it up to T3 if you can take archetypes for the fighter side of the equation though, as the additional push could really help make a very viable and cool character.
Agreed; a Fighter/Rogue gestalt seems to be a solid tier 4 character. The two classes have a lot of synergy since they cover each others' weaknesses. Even with URogue you can just ignore the Finesse Training class feature since weapon training and full BAB on the Fighter side will give you enough to work with in that respect and the other offerings are very nice.
If we allow for archetypes, then Eldritch Scoundrel is basically a free pass to tier 3 since it tacks on 6-level arcane spellcasting from the wizard spell list. Sure, it has ASF issues, but even if you just slap still spell on everything it's probably still worth it.
Speaking of Tiers, which tier would be a hypothetical (core) Fighter + Rogue "gestalt class (best from both tables)" belong in?By my estimate, it'd be probably mid-high Tier 4.
ROTFLMAO
*wiping tears* It's so funny that you're serious.
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Speaking of Tiers, which tier would be a hypothetical (core) Fighter + Rogue "gestalt class (best from both tables)" belong in?By my estimate, it'd be probably mid-high Tier 4.ROTFLMAO
*wiping tears* It's so funny that you're serious.
So considering my answer brought you to tears, mind telling me what you think this combination would be then?
If my sole criteria was looking for a powerful character, I'd take a gestalt Ftr/Rog over any regular class.
Also, apologies, I probably shouldn't have kicked mud on your thread.
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If my sole criteria was looking for a powerful character, I'd take a gestalt Ftr/Rog over any regular class.
Also, apologies, I probably shouldn't have kicked mud on your thread.
It's not my thread.
So by this statement, I'll assume you're saying they'd be tier 1? We can look at what the base gestalt gives, and see if it fits that criteria:
Full BAB
D10 hit die
8 Skills/level
2 good saves (Fort/Ref)
11 feats
Sneak Attack
Rogue Tricks
Fighter class features (armor/weapon training)
Rogue class features (evasion, uncanny dodge)
All together, it's a very strong package, but the problem is that neither class lets their base classes deal with a problem in a new way, especially on the Rogue's side of things.
Fighters get skill points, which with skill unlocks is nice, but not a huge step up in versatility. They can now comfortably pile on more damage with sneak attack, and most rogue talents are...still not great.
In combat, the Rogue/Fighter would be a terror, but at this point we're just piling numbers on top of each other, which is a pretty boring way to be better at a fight. Skills for out of combat are nice, but they still don't compare with spells, regardless of the 8 skill points a level.
For raw versatility, I'd rather take an alchemist or investigator over this mix. Sure, the Rogue/Fighter will thrash at combat, and they'll shine in situations that need skills, but built properly, so will the alchemist. Alchemist can also debuff more reliably, as well as their extracts that alter themselves for even more chances to have an answer to a situation. A Rogue/Fighter doesn't have a lot more options in this respect.
Remember, the Tier list isn't about raw power, it's about options and versatility. The added options don't push either class higher, although as stated earlier, with eldritch rogue, it's probably a high tier 3 class at the very lowest, since the sorcerer/wizard casting (even as a 6th level caster) is incredibly powerful, and VMCing with Magus for spellstrike can give even more ability to use it in a devastating way.
Mr. Pitt: Gestalt Ftr/Rog vs. any single class, not any gestalt. I'm not crazy.
N. Jolly: I don't care to make an extended debate, as I don't subscribe to the "Tier" ideology in any way. However, this combo is more than just a terror in combat, it's a terror without even trying. Rogues tend to have enough feats, via various rogue talents. With Fighter bonus feats, they could dedicate every regular feat to diversifying (Leadership of course, but other feats that can impact the influence the character can make), and still be phenomenally more deadly than a regular rogue, with full BAB, full plate (and still evasion thanks to armor training), and quick access to powerful feats. UMD (and maybe skill focus UMD) put all the utility wands scrolls in the world at their fingertips.
The combo makes combat contributions so innate that they can completely play with the rest of their build - that's versatility. Like a wizard lucks into a fully-charged wand of fireball before 5th level - it opens things up.
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N. Jolly: I don't care to make an extended debate, as I don't subscribe to the "Tier" ideology in any way. However, this combo is more than just a terror in combat, it's a terror without even trying. Rogues tend to have enough feats, via various rogue talents. With Fighter bonus feats, they could dedicate every regular feat to diversifying (Leadership of course, but other feats that can impact the influence the character can make), and still be phenomenally more deadly than a regular rogue, with full BAB, full plate (and still evasion thanks to armor training), and quick access to powerful feats. UMD (and maybe skill focus UMD) put all the utility wands scrolls in the world at their fingertips.
The combo makes combat contributions so innate that they can completely play with the rest of their build - that's versatility. Like a wizard lucks into a fully-charged wand of fireball before 5th level - it opens things up.
When your initial statement in the thread is mocking my position about tier list and then admitting that you don't even subscribe to the ideology being discussed, it gets kind of confusing replying to you. I don't understand what you found so funny when you specifically stated you don't subscribe to tiers.
As stated, they're very good at combat and skills, which is basically Tier 4's wheelhouse. They can't fly, phase through walls, burrow, or other things that Tier 3 and up classes take for granted. You're right, the combination offers incredible versatility, but it's the versatility of Tier 4, and it isn't pushing anything up to Tier 3 or what's expected of Tier 3 classes.
Really, I'm stating this for anyone else reading since you don't care to discuss it, as I think it's important that if people want to understand the Tier system, they should be aware of what the Tiers mean, and what they don't mean. Tiers represent options to solve problems, and higher tiers have more options, that's what the tier list means.
As for above comments. I don't think I've ever seen the URogue considered controversial before, most people I see unambiguously push it up into T4 range at least (if anything most of the debate I see is between that assumption and a few vocal people who think it's T3 capable).
I lurk on several boards, and I've seen a lot of people adamantly insist that URogue is still tier 5. Personally I think both arguments have merits but lean towards "low tier 4" myself. I do have to strongly disagree with anyone saying it's tier 3, though. It's nowhere near that threshold, Eldritch Scoundrel notwithstanding.
Also confused on the assertion that it has only one specific fighting style. It's got basically all the same combat options as a regular rogue at the very least.
The combat options of the core Rogue are not very good, that's kinda the problem. You're giving up the very enhancements that brought URogue to its newfound competency if you pursue any other combat style.
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This list is up to date as of Unchained (no Occult Classes).
I don't actually agree with several bits of it at all, especially between tiers 4-6, which look like the classes were just thrown there based on whether the person compiling the list liked them personally), but there it is.
As for the argument: Yeah, a Gestalt Fighter/Rogue is Tier 4. It is also, however, way too good at it's one trick (the raw numbers of combat) to actually be balanced with existing Classes. Tier is not the only measure of power by any means. It's one measure, and a useful one if used properly, but it's in no way defining. An Adept is higher tier than most Fighters just by virtue of having a spell list. It's not so much about power as it is flexibility, ability to do things other than just stand there and fight. And the Fighter/Rogue has nothing in terms of utility beyond what Rogue has.
My own list would be:
Tier 1: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Witch, Razmiran Priest Sorcerer, Sorcerer or Oracle w/ Paragon Surge, Shaman, Arcanist,
Tier 2: Oracle, Sorcerer, Summoner, Psychic,
Tier 3: Alchemist, Bard, Skald, Inquisitor, Magus, Investigator, Warpriest, Hunter, Unchained Summoner, Occultist, Medium, Spiritualist, Mesmerist, Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue,
Tier 4: Barbarian, Unchained Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Adept, Bloodrager, Slayer, Fighter with Advanced Weapon Training or Martial Master and/or Mutation Warrior or Lore Warden, Brawler, Kineticist, Unchained Monk, Archetyped Monk, Unchained Rogue, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger,
Tier 5: Corebook Monk, Fighter, Ninja, Rogue, Swashbuckler,
Tier 6: Aristocrat, Expert, Warrior, Commoner, Vow of Poverty Monk
Ones in Bold are especially flexible for their tier, ones in italics especially inflexible for their tier.
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Agree for the most part. I would still keep the unchained summoner Tier 2, as it still gets full summon monster progression. I would move the gunslinger down to Tier 5, especially post errata. Samurai/Cavalier are tier 5 as well, at the very least low-end tier 4. Kineticist is tier 3.
I was borderline in whether to make the Cavalier/Samurai low Tier 4, and can definitely see the argument for Kineticists as Tier 3. Those seem very possible.
Summon Monster's a great spell, but I still don't feel like it's enough on its own to make a 6-level caster quite up to Tier 2. Summoners were originally Tier 2 because they were a 9-level caster faking being a 6-level one, and Unchained Summoners aren't quite that.
And Tier 5 notes, as part of it's description, that they aren't even very good at their particular area of specialty. Gunslingers are one of the best single-target direct damage characters in the game, and Cavaliers/Samurai are no slouches either. Both are also decent at skills, making them not completely useless out of combat. That's not enough to be better than Tier 4, but I think it raises them out of Tier 5.
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My gripe with gunsliger is that a single level of trench fighter basically invalidates the class. Dex to gun damage is literally the only worthwhile feature of the class. No one should ever take more than 5 levels of non bolt ace gunslinger. And the double barreled changes almost halved their damage output. They really don't excel at dpr anymore. A core fighter will outdamage them.
Uh...you need three levels of Trench Fighter to get Dex-to-damage. Also, Trench Fighter is explicitly an archetype for high-gun settings. In which case 1 level of Gunslinger gets you the same. Allowing it in Golarion or other non-high gun settings is super shaky, IMO.
Additionally, Trench Fighter gives you neither Pistolero nor Musket Master's bonuses, which are not necessarily small.
Still, you might well be right that after 5 levels, another class would be better. But that's not actually super-relevant to what tier a Class is. Gunslingers are legitimately good at their area (shooting things with guns) and are as useful as, say, a Barbarian outside of combat. Period. That's all you really need to be Tier 4.
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Personally, I think Cavalier/Samurai is high T5, their class features don't really give them much more options, and their teamwork feats aren't that versatile. Probably high T5, but I don't think they break into the likes of what the other T4 classes can do. Maybe with a more flexible animal companion (which I know they can get with feats), but the class itself is very simplistic in its abilities, making it on the weaker end of the spectrum for me.
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Personally, I think Cavalier/Samurai is high T5, their class features don't really give them much more options, and their teamwork feats aren't that versatile. Probably high T5, but I don't think they break into the likes of what the other T4 classes can do. Maybe with a more flexible animal companion (which I know they can get with feats), but the class itself is very simplistic in its abilities, making it on the weaker end of the spectrum for me.
Well, in fairness, the Beast Rider Archetype gives almost any animal companion you want (barring flying ones). And, like Invulnerable Rager for Barbarian I sorta assume it, since it doesn't cost anything but Heavy Armor Proficiency (well, and Expert Trainer, but that only matters for people who are dipping).
And several Order features actually do give them more options. Order of the Tome makes you a spellcaster for purposes of scrolls only, for example.
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Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier. It was late when I posted last night.
Gunslinger is 4 because there's little to match it in raw damage output with touch attacks to boot. Swashbuckler removes the only strengths it has and you see the result. Though a barbarian is far more useful than a gunslinger out of combat.
What do Barbarians do outside combat that Gunslingers don't? I mean, I guess there's Spell Sunder...
I agree on Tier, I'm mostly just curious.
Cavalier is definitely tier 4, especially archetyped. They get great damage, limited utility, a full animal companion, and just suffer from a few near useless class abilities.
That's my general feeling.
I would put ninja in tier 4. Vanishing trick alone it tier 4 material.
I dunno, that's pretty specifically a combat ability, and doesn't even always let them do that super well.
Skald is tier 2 with expanded spell kenning.
Skald's main trick (Raging Song) is...situational. Spell Kenning is amazing, but they're still a 6-level caster, which restricts it's efficacy somewhat. The combination says Tier 3 to me.
For people who legitimately believe this, though, Medium should get the same Tier. They can pull the same trick only better for non-combat uses.
Now let's argue about the tiers of the Strange Magic classes....
I think the ethermancer is low tier 2. The author/owner of Interjection Games claimed that the Herald of the Void archetype pushes the ethermancer up to tier 1. He also says that the Herbalist is tier 1 (but I don't own that class so I don't know if I agree), and that no other Interjection classes are tier 1 (I agree based solely on those I have). I think all nine classes in strange magic classes (except for that one archetype) are in the tier 2-4 range, but where exactly the fall is something we can argue about....
I have had a lot of trouble pinning down the power of the Strange Magic classes, myself. I remember that the Ethermancer was definitely in the high 3-low 2 for me, too, and that the other two other Ether classes were around tier three, but all of the other classes in the book looked really weak to me: a lot of half-BAB classes without the power or versatility of full casters didn't ring to me.
I can't understand if it was me or not, because of the fact that they all are so complicated. :/I wanted to open a thread about it since I read the book...maybe I should do so.
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Barbarians can sunder spells and fly off the top of my head, and are more useful for finding traps.
I suppose. Gunslingers can shoot locks, which is something, and have a better skill list, and probably better stats to do well with skills.
But yeah, you're probably right.
Invisibility and then greater invisibility for the stealthy types is hands down tier 4 material. It helps the ninja accomplish ninja stuff which is the requirement for tier 4. In comparison rogues get the same damage output with worse class abilities and no way to self-initialize sneak attack reliably. Having had more than one player convert from rogue to ninja and see a dramatic spike in their viability, I am happy to put ninja in tier 4 and leave rogue in tier 5.
Maybe. I did cite it as 'high tier 5' along with Swashbuckler...I'm just not sure it's any better.
I don't know enough about medium, but I would be fine with putting up a tier (along with magician bards and the like).
Magicians get a very limited number of non-Bard spells, so I definitely don't think they'd count. Medium, though, is at least as good at dabbling in other spell lists as Skald. Well, the Wizard and Cleric lists anyway.
Skald gets to grab spells at will but only once a day. Medium has to make a choice at the beginning of the day, and gives up some combat prowess to do so, but he gets to use several such spells as if he had them all day. Which is awesome utility.
But in either case...they simply lack any spells higher than 6th. That's...really hard to justify as equally flexible with people who have access to Greater Teleport and Wish and the like. The Summoner at least has Summon Monster VII-IX to push it over the edge. I don't feel like Skald or Medium quite manage the same (well, not until 20th level anyway).
Psionics stays within 2-3 tier.
Path of war is just not clicking for me, but I see them as 4-3 tier or just 3 tier.
For paizo tiers are pretty simple
1. 9th prepared casters
2. 9th spont casters and Chained Summoner
3. 6th casters, One True barbar Build, Paladins(who haven't fallen somehow)
4. 4th caster, competent mundanes
5. Bad Classes: Core Fighter, Chained Rogue, Cavaliers, Core Monk, Warriors, and Adepts
A core fighter + chained rogue lands in high tier 4. An expanded fighter (no magic flavored archetypes) + unchained rogue is an unbalanced tier 3.
1 |Toughness, Intimidating Prowess, Combat Reflexes
2 |Bravery +1, Power Attack
3 |Armor training, Cleave
4 |Great Cleave
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy), Advanced Weapon Training: Versatile Training(Intimidate, Diplomacy)
6 |Bravery +2, Lunge
7 |Armor training, Iron Will
8 |Blind-Fight
9 |Versatile Training(Bluff, Ride), Cut from the Air
10|Bravery +3, Advanced Weapon Training: Armed Bravery
11|Armor training, Smash from the Air
12|Pin down
13|Defensive Weapon Training, Antagonize
14|Bravery +4, Dazing Assault
15|Armor training, Advanced Weapon Training: Weapon Sacrifice
16|Weapon Focus
17|Fighter’s Reflexes, Greater Weapon Focus
18|Bravery +5, Weapon Specialization
19|Armor mastery, Greater Weapon Specialization
20|weapon mastery(GS), Advanced Weapon Training: Weapon Specialist
If you add Urogue features, It doesn't matter that you are ignoring the new dex enhancement features, you get utility and a significant damage bonus. In most games I've been in such a character would be a dominate force. It's still technically tier 3, but all those small powers really add up very fast. It could end up putting in-practice wizards to shame (aka GM nerfs any option that would smash WBL to little tiny pieces and takes steps to prevent amassing armies OR the wizard player just never has those ideas).
Such a combo only stays tier 3 in an optimized game. In a less optimized game it outshines tier 1s. The rest of the tier list works at any level of equal optimization.