So a short while ago I wrote this nice campaign that I wanted to illustrate and publish but hit a snag when I read that third-party material is not allowed to mention any location in Golarion. Well not a snag, more of confusion?
My campaign is set on Akiton... am I... am I allowed to say that?
Akiton is not in Golarion but I understand that the intent was for specific named locations to not be allowed to be used... but would I be allowed to say the planet's name it is on?
If Akiton is not allowed to be mentioned would I be allowed to say Akitan...?
idk if that would be allowed...
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It depends on what you're doing and how you're distributing it.
There is a Community Use Policy (CUP) that defines what non-profit things you can do with Paizo's Intellectual Property (IP). Golarion, Akiton, Castrovel, the specific details of those, and more, are Paizo's IP.
If you want to publish to sell, then you need to negotiate a license with them.
If it doesn't fall under what you're allowed to do under the CUP, then you need to be talking to a lawyer about negotiating a license, basically.
"Filing off the serial numbers" is something people talk about, but the more obvious it is as an attempt to do that, the more likely the current laws will require that Paizo takes action to stop you.
So, really, the more serious you are, the more you need to talk to a lawyer.
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Proper names (like "Akiton" and "Golarion") are considered product identity under the Open Game License, and you cannot use them in your commercial (i.e. for profit) product produced under the OGL or the Pathfinder Compatibility License. "Akitan" is a bit close for comfort.
I've got this whole scene where the players think they are going to a far away country but instead are fired off into space... the name is needed...
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Maybe I will just call it the red planet and have a for DM's note to look up the name of the red planet in the setting they use?
Heck, you could even say/write something to the effect of "using the backdrop of 'the Red Planet', as depicted in many Pulp style planetary literary adventures"... that way, it could be used for any campaign setting. ;)
Selling something using the OGL would require that some things be kept generic enough so that you don't run afoul of IP laws. :)
Felinoel, are you trying to make something to sell or just to put out there for fun? As has already been pointed out, that really determines what set of rules (i.e which license) you need to stick to.
I don't know.
Selling it wouldn't generate too much money but it would be fun to do.The campaign is intended for Pathfinder and I want to use the PFS logo on the inside cover or somewhere to denote that. What can I do that keeps that logo?
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Felinoel, are you trying to make something to sell or just to put out there for fun? As has already been pointed out, that really determines what set of rules (i.e which license) you need to stick to.
I don't know.
Selling it wouldn't generate too much money but it would be fun to do.The campaign is intended for Pathfinder and I want to use the PFS logo on the inside cover or somewhere to denote that. What can I do that keeps that logo?
You can't use the PFS logo in any way. PFS is only for adventures officially released by Paizo as a Pathfinder Society adventure.
Here's the thing: How close do you want to be Paizo's material do you want to be? Don't answer that just yet. Before I am done, you will probably find that this answer is different than you currently think. Ask yourself these questions:
- Do you simply like the basic ideas that Paizo has put into the Akiton or do you absolutely love every single word they have published on the planet? To reduce it to a simple yes or not: Did you change anything, at all, no matter how tiny?
- Did you add anything to it that Paizo did not create? Countries, towns, NPCs, mountains, ruins, etc? Anything?
- Do you want to go beyond the campaign and also release additional sellables? Player's Guides, Campaign Setting material, Another campaign, anything?
If the answer to any of these is "Yes," then you do not want to be as close to Paizo's material as you had previously thought. If you answered "No," to all of them, then I recommend submitting it off to Paizo. They might be interested in it.
Assuming you said "Yes," my best recommendation is calling the line of products "Red Planet" and then just name the planet something else entirely. People will know what you are talking about from the product line name and if people like it enough, they will either use your material in place of Paizo's (changing the name of the planet) or just use it as a stand alone setting.
Oh and don't mention Paizo's setting in any way. At all. Pretend it doesn't exist when you write. Use their writing as inspiration, in the same way I have a tactician archetype in the upcoming Advanced Wyrwoods where the player can throw a shield and it returns is clearly based on Captain America but never mentions the comics/movies ever.
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If you answered "No," to all of them, then I recommend submitting it off to Paizo. They might be interested in it.
Abjectly "No." We absolutely cannot look at or read unsolicited material for a raft of legal reasons. Please do not do this thing.
A couple of years ago, there was a kickstarter for miniatures. The organizer ignored the advice that he was walking into legal troubles, and that he should talk to a lawyer. The end result was, as I recall, a court order to destroy all of the miniatures manufactured. The sculptor had to re-sculpt all of the miniatures because they were too plainly based on copyright art belonging to Wizards of the Coast. Even though he changed the names... "filing off the serial numbers".
Really... talk to a lawyer.
Felinoel, are you trying to make something to sell or just to put out there for fun? As has already been pointed out, that really determines what set of rules (i.e which license) you need to stick to.
I don't know.
Selling it wouldn't generate too much money but it would be fun to do.The campaign is intended for Pathfinder and I want to use the PFS logo on the inside cover or somewhere to denote that. What can I do that keeps that logo?
You can't use the PFS logo in any way. PFS is only for adventures officially released by Paizo as a Pathfinder Society adventure.
You're saying then that no mention of the name Pathfinder would ever be able to be added in any way whatsoever to denote that the campaign was intended to be played with the Pathfinder game system?
Here's the thing: How close do you want to be Paizo's material do you want to be? Don't answer that just yet. Before I am done, you will probably find that this answer is different than you currently think. Ask yourself these questions:
[list]Do you simply like the basic ideas that Paizo has put into the Akiton or do you absolutely love every single word they have published on the planet? To reduce it to a simple yes or not: Did you change anything, at all, no matter how tiny?
Nothing was changed but nothing was used. There is a Golarion settlement technically added but that gets destroyed and abandoned.
Did you add anything to it that Paizo did not create? Countries, towns, NPCs, mountains, ruins, etc? Anything?
Just the settlement and a nameless VC that may or may not get stats and a name but unless the players get lucky or are very good that VC dies.
Do you want to go beyond the campaign and also release additional sellables? Player's Guides, Campaign Setting material, Another campaign, anything?
It hadn't occurred to me, other than maybe something for the other planets too but not really in a series... ish?
Oh and don't mention Paizo's setting in any way. At all. Pretend it doesn't exist when you write. Use their writing as inspiration, in the same way I have a tactician archetype in the upcoming Advanced Wyrwoods where the player can throw a shield and it returns is clearly based on Captain America but never mentions the comics/movies ever.
The only thing currently named is Akiton but that apparently can't be named that.
A couple of years ago, there was a kickstarter for miniatures. The organizer ignored the advice that he was walking into legal troubles, and that he should talk to a lawyer. The end result was, as I recall, a court order to destroy all of the miniatures manufactured. The sculptor had to re-sculpt all of the miniatures because they were too plainly based on copyright art belonging to Wizards of the Coast. Even though he changed the names... "filing off the serial numbers".
Really... talk to a lawyer.
That is why I made this post, to see what I need to do.
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You're saying then that no mention of the name Pathfinder would ever be able to be added in any way whatsoever to denote that the campaign was intended to be played with the Pathfinder game system?Felinoel, are you trying to make something to sell or just to put out there for fun? As has already been pointed out, that really determines what set of rules (i.e which license) you need to stick to.
I don't know.
Selling it wouldn't generate too much money but it would be fun to do.The campaign is intended for Pathfinder and I want to use the PFS logo on the inside cover or somewhere to denote that. What can I do that keeps that logo?
You can't use the PFS logo in any way. PFS is only for adventures officially released by Paizo as a Pathfinder Society adventure.
I think you are confusing some fundamental issues and terms ...
PFS (the abbreviation you used in your above post) stands for Pathfinder Society, Paizo's official organized play program. You, as an individual, cannot use the PFS logo or name, period.
As others have explained, you CAN use the Pathfinder RPG compatible logo if you publish using the OGL (Open Game License) and the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Compatibility License. Doing so allows you to sell your product, but you may NOT use any Paizo IP (intelectual property, such as proper name, place names etc. This would include Akiton). This is what Third Party companies (3PP) do.
You can INSTEAD, opt to release your product under the Community Use Policy, which is essential the 'fan-made' option. Going this route allows you to use Paizo IP (so you COULD use terms like Akiton) but you CANNOT sell your product.
Does that clear things up at all?
You're saying then that no mention of the name Pathfinder would ever be able to be added in any way whatsoever to denote that the campaign was intended to be played with the Pathfinder game system?Felinoel, are you trying to make something to sell or just to put out there for fun? As has already been pointed out, that really determines what set of rules (i.e which license) you need to stick to.
I don't know.
Selling it wouldn't generate too much money but it would be fun to do.The campaign is intended for Pathfinder and I want to use the PFS logo on the inside cover or somewhere to denote that. What can I do that keeps that logo?
You can't use the PFS logo in any way. PFS is only for adventures officially released by Paizo as a Pathfinder Society adventure.
I think you are confusing some fundamental issues and terms ...
PFS (the abbreviation you used in your above post) stands for Pathfinder Society, Paizo's official organized play program. You, as an individual, cannot use the PFS logo or name, period.
As others have explained, you CAN use the Pathfinder RPG compatible logo if you publish using the OGL (Open Game License) and the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Compatibility License. Doing so allows you to sell your product, but you may NOT use any Paizo IP (intelectual property, such as proper name, place names etc. This would include Akiton). This is what Third Party companies (3PP) do.
You can INSTEAD, opt to release your product under the Community Use Policy, which is essential the 'fan-made' option. Going this route allows you to use Paizo IP (so you COULD use terms like Akiton) but you CANNOT sell your product.
Does that clear things up at all?
I only wrote PFS because I was typing a response on my phone at the time and wanted to shorten it to make it easier, yes that was a mistake to say.
How do I use the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Compatibility License?
Just post that in the book or do I need to do more?
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The License is written in non-lawyer-friendly language, so you should be fine with reading it *carefully*. However, if you have any advanced questions, take them to your lawyer.
I'd add to the above that the Community Use Policy prohibits "commercial use", which is a broader thing than "you can't sell your product".
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If you answered "No," to all of them, then I recommend submitting it off to Paizo. They might be interested in it.Abjectly "No." We absolutely cannot look at or read unsolicited material for a raft of legal reasons. Please do not do this thing.
That is extremely interesting and quite surprising to me. Does anyone know whether this restriction also applies to 3pp ?
If you answered "No," to all of them, then I recommend submitting it off to Paizo. They might be interested in it.Abjectly "No." We absolutely cannot look at or read unsolicited material for a raft of legal reasons. Please do not do this thing.
Alrighty then. Would it be ok to suggest that he pitch the idea to Paizo and see if they bite?
Alrighty then. Would it be ok to suggest that he pitch the idea to Paizo and see if they bite?If you answered "No," to all of them, then I recommend submitting it off to Paizo. They might be interested in it.Abjectly "No." We absolutely cannot look at or read unsolicited material for a raft of legal reasons. Please do not do this thing.
They seem to keep a full publishing schedule. Even if they bit, it would likely take a while to find a slot of it.
They seem to keep a full publishing schedule. Even if they bit, it would likely take a while to find a slot of it.
Sure, that is what a good company does. But that doesn't mean that it might not appear in a pathfinder module line 2 years after pitching it.
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They seem to keep a full publishing schedule. Even if they bit, it would likely take a while to find a slot of it.Sure, that is what a good company does. But that doesn't mean that it might not appear in a pathfinder module line 2 years after pitching it.
Our production schedule is planned out so far in advance that even pitching it to us is a bad idea. Pitching ideas for publication by Paizo generally tends to happen when you're an already established freelancer with us (and even then, it's certainly not a guarantee).
Here is a link to some unofficial Third-Party references and explanations regarding publishing under the Pathfinder Compatibility License. (Caveat: I am Not a Lawyer... I just have to enforce the guidelines within the License.)|
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That is extremely interesting and quite surprising to me. Does anyone know whether this restriction also applies to 3pp ?If you answered "No," to all of them, then I recommend submitting it off to Paizo. They might be interested in it.Abjectly "No." We absolutely cannot look at or read unsolicited material for a raft of legal reasons. Please do not do this thing.
It's not surprising at all.
Imagine Joey, the plucky and hopeful adventure writer.
Joey sends a draft of his "Halls of Gnome Kings" adventure to a gaming company. Jane, who is responsible for handling the inbox, opens his e-mail and writes back a nice "Gee thanks Joey, we'll let you know if we like it" message.
Of course, that was just courtesy, nothing happens. For 20 years.
Until the fateful day when the company decides to publish "Corridors of Gnome Princes", an adventure that has, by pure coincidence of parallel design, a story very similar to Joey's work 20 years back.
These days Joey is no longer plucky and hopeful, he's a jaded, divorced, cancer-suffering man who has two things in spades: spite and money.
Joey reads about the adventure. He's furious. THEY TOOK HIS IDEA AND RAN WITH IT. Joey e-mails the company demanding royalties. Institutional memory is a beach, and Jane is no longer with the company, archived e-mails are gone, and Drake the editor is having a bad day, so he writes a semi-polite "lol get lost" response.
Joey goes ballistic, calls his lawyer and fires away a lawsuit. Which will be horribly difficult to defend against, because Joey has the proof that he pitched the adventure, got the response and everything. From legal point of view, this leads to the conclusion that the company *could* be using his work. And the company has very little defences here, because they can't really prove it's parallel design. And it's 'Murican law we're talking here, so you can ask for your 30m USD damages and get them.
So that's why you have boilerplate of "all content posted on messageborads belong to us" and the "destroy all unsolicited contributions without reading them" policy up front, because they do, to some degree, protect you against Joey.
Creative Director
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That is extremely interesting and quite surprising to me. Does anyone know whether this restriction also applies to 3pp ?If you answered "No," to all of them, then I recommend submitting it off to Paizo. They might be interested in it.Abjectly "No." We absolutely cannot look at or read unsolicited material for a raft of legal reasons. Please do not do this thing.It's not surprising at all.
Imagine Joey, the plucky and hopeful adventure writer.
Joey sends a draft of his "Halls of Gnome Kings" adventure to a gaming company. Jane, who is responsible for handling the inbox, opens his e-mail and writes back a nice "Gee thanks Joey, we'll let you know if we like it" message.
Of course, that was just courtesy, nothing happens. For 20 years.
Until the fateful day when the company decides to publish "Corridors of Gnome Princes", an adventure that has, by pure coincidence of parallel design, a story very similar to Joey's work 20 years back.
These days Joey is no longer plucky and hopeful, he's a jaded, divorced, cancer-suffering man who has two things in spades: spite and money.
Joey reads about the adventure. He's furious. THEY TOOK HIS IDEA AND RAN WITH IT. Joey e-mails the company demanding royalties. Institutional memory is a beach, and Jane is no longer with the company, archived e-mails are gone, and Drake the editor is having a bad day, so he writes a semi-polite "lol get lost" response.
Joey goes ballistic, calls his lawyer and fires away a lawsuit. Which will be horribly difficult to defend against, because Joey has the proof that he pitched the adventure, got the response and everything. From legal point of view, this leads to the conclusion that the company *could* be using his work. And the company has very little defences here, because they can't really prove it's parallel design. And it's 'Murican law we're talking here, so you can ask for your 30m USD damages and get them....
All of the talking bag's points are spot on. Whether or not 3rd party publishers accept and read unsolicited material is, of course, up to them... but wisdom would suggest they do not, for legal reasons.
Now onto the issue of monsters, am I allowed to instruct where to find stats?
Something along the lines of:
4 orcs (See "book title" page 42)
I am POSITIVE this will be a no when using this below but I wanted to check.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/compatibility
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That is extremely interesting and quite surprising to me. Does anyone know whether this restriction also applies to 3pp ?If you answered "No," to all of them, then I recommend submitting it off to Paizo. They might be interested in it.Abjectly "No." We absolutely cannot look at or read unsolicited material for a raft of legal reasons. Please do not do this thing.It's not surprising at all.
Imagine Joey, the plucky and hopeful adventure writer.
Joey sends a draft of his "Halls of Gnome Kings" adventure to a gaming company. Jane, who is responsible for handling the inbox, opens his e-mail and writes back a nice "Gee thanks Joey, we'll let you know if we like it" message.
Of course, that was just courtesy, nothing happens. For 20 years.
Until the fateful day when the company decides to publish "Corridors of Gnome Princes", an adventure that has, by pure coincidence of parallel design, a story very similar to Joey's work 20 years back.
These days Joey is no longer plucky and hopeful, he's a jaded, divorced, cancer-suffering man who has two things in spades: spite and money.
Joey reads about the adventure. He's furious. THEY TOOK HIS IDEA AND RAN WITH IT. Joey e-mails the company demanding royalties. Institutional memory is a beach, and Jane is no longer with the company, archived e-mails are gone, and Drake the editor is having a bad day, so he writes a semi-polite "lol get lost" response.
Joey goes ballistic, calls his lawyer and fires away a lawsuit. Which will be horribly difficult to defend against, because Joey has the proof that he pitched the adventure, got the response and everything. From legal point of view, this leads to the conclusion that the company *could* be using his work. And the company has very little defences here, because they can't really prove it's parallel design. And it's 'Murican law we're talking here, so you can ask for your 30m USD damages and get them....
One of my favorite favorite Gorbacz posts.
Once upon a time, starting in 1989, Paramount, the production company for Star Trek, had a famous open script submission policy. They accepted up to two unsolicited scripts from amateur writers. They received thousands of scripts in this way (script coordinator Lolita Fatjo was once quoted with "about 5,000 for the final season of TNG alone"), and some of those were actually made in to episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and Star Trek: Voyager. Writers like René Echevarria, Jane Espenson, Ronald D. Moore, Robert Hewitt Wolfe, and even Bryan Fuller, who will now be running the upcoming new Star Trek show, got into the business in this way. By the time of Enterprise, however, Paramount suspended the policy, because the kind of lawsuits that Gorbacz described were becoming a problem. Their practice was to pay people off, but it was becoming too expensive.
Now onto the issue of monsters, am I allowed to instruct where to find stats?
Something along the lines of:
4 orcs (See "book title" page 42)
I am POSITIVE this will be a no when using this below but I wanted to check.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/compatibility
If you are sticking with the OGL everyone reading will have access to the PRD. And given the ability to insert hyperlinks into documents you would be better served doing that. No need for book names.
Now onto the issue of monsters, am I allowed to instruct where to find stats?
Something along the lines of:
4 orcs (See "book title" page 42)
I am POSITIVE this will be a no when using this below but I wanted to check.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/compatibility
The usual format is:
DIRE SHARK CR 9
XP 6,400
hp 112 (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary "Shark, Dire")Then any notes on modifications. For example, maybe the Dire Shark currently has 82 hit points instead of 112 - you'd probably add a note about how and why it's weakened (with the HP being used put up in the stat block).
The CR is sometimes all the way to the right, but I don't think I can code that here. I think it's usually best to avoid page numbers, in case they change between printings of the book or something.
Yeah that is the usual format, but I wanted to be sure it was fine.
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The compatibility license expressly forbids using page numbers:
"If you wish to reference sections of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game or supplemental products in your product, you may do so in the following form:
See the "Elf Racial Traits" section in Chapter 3 of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook.
You may not use page numbers, as they may change in licensed translations and in subsequent printings. The list of products you may reference is set out in Exhibit B, which Paizo may update at any time. You may not reference any Paizo products that are not listed in Exhibit B without express written permission."
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You may not use page numbers, as they may change in licensed translations and in subsequent printings.
I find this clause mildly amusing, because whenver errata is issued they make a big point about how they "can't" push anything onto a different page, since it would mess up page number references, and of course Paizo makes very frequent page number references in their own products. The ocntrast of those two facts suggests that either
a)Whoever wrote that clause in the Pathfinder Combatibility License wasn't on the same page as the people writing/editing the errata, orb)Paizo has another reason for including that clause in the license, separate from the reason they stated publicly.
For the record though, as a customer, I actually don't really like page references very much. In a PDF (which will include all indie RPG products), it's easy enough to CTRL+F, so you can save word count by not including a page reference. In a physical product, a good index or ToC obviates the need for page references. I may not know why the no-page-number-references is in there, but I'm sort of glad it's there anyhow.
Anyhow, if you are unsure about the legality of something, I'd suggest trying to convince an established publisher to publish your work, so that they can help sort it out. There is a lot involved in publishing, and you don't want to bite off more than you can chew.
You may not use page numbers, as they may change in licensed translations and in subsequent printings.I find this clause mildly amusing, because whenver errata is issued they make a big point about how they "can't" push anything onto a different page, since it would mess up page number references, and of course Paizo makes very frequent page number references in their own products. The ocntrast of those two facts suggests that either
a)Whoever wrote that clause in the Pathfinder Combatibility License wasn't on the same page as the people writing/editing the errata, or
b)Paizo has another reason for including that clause in the license, separate from the reason they stated publicly.
For the record though, as a customer, I actually don't really like page references very much. In a PDF (which will include all indie RPG products), it's easy enough to CTRL+F, so you can save word count by not including a page reference. In a physical product, a good index or ToC obviates the need for page references. I may not know why the no-page-number-references is in there, but I'm sort of glad it's there anyhow.
Anyhow, if you are unsure about the legality of something, I'd suggest trying to convince an established publisher to publish your work, so that they can help sort it out. There is a lot involved in publishing, and you don't want to bite off more than you can chew.
It would be a control thing I imagine. They have been very good about NOT changing the page numbers in their core books and what not... but there's always a chance that something will force them to. Some new Errata or rule change that adds just a word or two too many...
I think the big one is the 'Translations' comment. What takes one page in English may take two in French or 1 and 1/2 in German... and they may not have even looked at Dutch or Romanian yet...
No sense in letting 3rd party make page notes on their products if you can't trust them to update that for every language it gets written in...