FAQ. Supernatural activation time.

[Melkiador]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Magic>Spell-like ability wrote:

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell

This is why it needs the specific language. Cause SLA are standards or spell length, whichever is longer.

Im not seeing the "whichever is longer" stipulation there. An SLA of feather fall should be an immediate action, unless specified otherwise. The default standard action activation seems to be for SLA that aren't based on spells.

[Ckorik]

Melkiador wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

Magic>Spell-like ability wrote:

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell

This is why it needs the specific language. Cause SLA are standards or spell length, whichever is longer.

Im not seeing the "whichever is longer" stipulation there. An SLA of feather fall should be an immediate action, unless specified otherwise. The default standard action activation seems to be for SLA that aren't based on spells.

I'm also not seeing a 'whichever is shorter'.

The more interesting thing is the language - which 'as noted' denotes in the description - and the key difference between SLA and SU - which is the 'unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description' - where they call out specifically if you use the spell description for any changes.

So with SU - standard unless the ability says not (no other locations).

SLA = standard unless the ability *or* spell says not (meaning look at the spell).

Pretty much seals the idea that as noted doesn't go beyond the ability description.

[Snowblind]

Page 221, Core rule book

p221 - Special Abilities wrote:

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action

unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.

[Ckorik]

Snowblind wrote:

Page 221, Core rule book

p221 - Special Abilities wrote:

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action

unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.

Just in case this was to me - yes I know that - I am not the one arguing that they didn't see 'whichever is longer' - my point is that it also doesn't say 'whichever is shorter'. I do take the position that the devs don't expect to hold your hand on every single phrase for you to follow the rules and saying 'as noted or spell description' means use any deviation that you find.

Just like 'as noted' means only if noted in the ability text. Because it omits the spell description line.

[Fernn]

From the Bestiary: "Using all other [meaning not "Constant"]spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise"
From the Core Book:"A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description."

First off, let's agree that those two statements are meant to be functionally identical.

When a Duergar uses her Enlarge Person SLA, it should not matter if you wrote that ability down from the Advanced Race Guide or the Bestiary.

"Unless otherwise noted" means "unless otherwise noted right here". It certainly doesn't mean "standard action, except you look up the casting time for every single spell and use that instead". That interpretation would make the entire "standard action unless otherwise noted" pointless, and would furthermore assume that spells had a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise - they don't, every single spell has casting time listed.

not to mention there are some SLA that are not based off spells. So to look up an not existent spell further proves the point that It is a standard action at all times, unless noted differently from the description of the particular SLA

Also in regards to feather fall SLA from the witch patron class, it makes sense to make it a standard action.

What does this mean for you?

If you are on top of a cliff, and a dragon is about to charge at you, you dont jump first then try to use your SLA to cast feather fall.
Your SLA first then jump off.
While Featherfall is intended to be cast as a immediate action to be your safety net, it does not mean that if you gained it as a SLA that it would function like a safety net.
It follows the same philosophy of a Wand of featherfall.

[Ascalaphus]

Fernn wrote:

From the Bestiary: "Using all other [meaning not "Constant"]spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise"

From the Core Book:"A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description."

First off, let's agree that those two statements are meant to be functionally identical.

When a Duergar uses her Enlarge Person SLA, it should not matter if you wrote that ability down from the Advanced Race Guide or the Bestiary.

Agreed.

Fernn wrote:

"Unless otherwise noted" means "unless otherwise noted right here". It certainly doesn't mean "standard action, except you look up the casting time for every single spell and use that instead".

In that case the Bestiary and CRB would be contradicting each other. Why would a duergar PC's Enlarge Person SLA be faster than a monster duergar's?

Fernn wrote:

That interpretation would make the entire "standard action unless otherwise noted" pointless, and would furthermore assume that spells had a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise - they don't, every single spell has casting time listed.

When a SLA mimics an existing spell, it is indeed pointless.

Fernn wrote:

not to mention there are some SLA that are not based off spells. So to look up an not existent spell further proves the point that It is a standard action at all times, unless noted differently from the description of the particular SLA

SLAs that don't mimic an existing spell are precisely the case where the "standard unless otherwise noted" clause applies.

Fernn wrote:

Also in regards to feather fall SLA from the witch patron class, it makes sense to make it a standard action.

What does this mean for you?

If you are on top of a cliff, and a dragon is about to charge at you, you dont jump first then try to use your SLA to cast feather fall.
Your SLA first then jump off.
While Featherfall is intended to be cast as a immediate action to be your safety net, it does not mean that if you gained it as a SLA that it would function like a safety net.
It follows the same philosophy of a Wand of featherfall.

No, wands have a different philosophy, explicitly noted:

CRB > Magic Items > Wands wrote:

Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.

A witch with the Flight hex can simply "use feather fall at will". That's precisely the normal feather fall, there are no changes specified in the hex.

[Melkiador]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

In the warpriest thread that inspired this thread someone mentioned the playtest was more explicit before they decided to centralize the standard action rule:

"Battle Companion (major): At 10th level, as a standard action you can summon a battle companion. This ability functions as summon monster IV, with a duration of 1 minute, but can only summon a good outsider or an animal with the celestial creature simple template. This ability can only summon one creature, regardless of the list used. At every 2 levels beyond 10th, the level of the summon monster spell increases by one, to a maximum of summon monster IX at 20th level."

And if that's what it said, I'd be down with that definition. That isn't what it says, which is the concern. The playtest is not the final version.

They have 6 different battle companion blessings with a very similar summon ability. If they were really looking to just remove similar worded blessings, it seems entirely reasonable that all of these could hacked down a lot smaller.

I don't buy it that the only reason to omit the standard action requirement is to make it shorter.

I'm making sure that you are aware the summoning blessings aren't the only ones that used to list the standard. They all used to list their activation times:

"Zephyr’s Gift (minor): At 1st level, as a standard action you can touch any one ranged weapon to imbue it with the quality of air. For 1 minute, any attacks made with the weapon take no penalties due to range. In addition, making ranged attacks with this weapon doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity."

[jbadams]

I see the relevance, but let's not get too caught up in the specifics of spell-like abilities when we're actually discussing supernatural abilities.

So we can now see that spell-like abilities have an additional specification that they do sometimes take the spell's activation time. That particular stipulation isn't present for supernatural abilities, further supporting the position that it shouldn't apply.

[j b 200]

Melkiador wrote:

I'm making sure that you are aware the summoning blessings aren't the only ones that used to list the standard. They all used to list their activation times:

"Zephyr’s Gift (minor): At 1st level, as a standard action you can touch any one ranged weapon to imbue it with the quality of air. For 1 minute, any attacks made with the weapon take no penalties due to range. In addition, making ranged attacks with this weapon doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity."

Yes, they took out that language b/c it was redundant and this now saves word count.

[plaidwandering]

Yes, that's all that happened. In the playtest there was no preface to blessings that said unless otherwise noted its a standard

instead, in like 80% of all blessings they said: as a standard as a standard as a standard, including battle companion

all they did was pull the repetition and put it up front

[dragonhunterq]

Noted to me needs to be a lot more than "as the spell". That is not "unless otherwise noted" by any stretch of my imagination.

[Lord_B]

This thread died a while ago, but frankly no-one came to a solution and I feel this really needs a lengthy FAQ with many examples.

Anyway, I want to give my interpretation and it starts with an outline of the hierarchy of rules on abilities in general down to specific.

At the top, we have the type of ability, which is the marking from (Ex), (Su), and (Sp). Rules defined here go down to everything.

Then the path splits into 2. In the first, some Monster abilities are defined by Universal Monster Rules, including Ferocity (Ex), Change Shape (Su), Spell-like Abilities (Sp), and Summon (Sp). In the second, class abilities are defined, such as Evasion (Ex), Hexes and Blessings (Su).

On the first path, specifics and variations on abilities can be found in the individual descriptions of the monsters using them. On the second path, specifics and variations should they exist, are listed as subsets like in Rogue Talents, Hexes and Blessings.

I would place a final box at the end, to say that the GM has the right to make the final calls on altering the specifics of all abilities and thus rest on top of this tree-like hierarchy as if they were a blanket.

If an ability lists a spell in it, it is a defined method of using that spell's ability and thus more specific than the spell itself. This places the spell directly before the ability referencing it in the chain of general to specific.

I will start with the Witch Disguise Hex as an example:
In the order I have listed, here is all relevant information:

Supernatural Abilities (Su)
Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.

Hex
Witches learn a number of magic tricks, called hexes, that grant them powers or weaken foes. At 1st level, a witch gains one hex of her choice. She gains an additional hex at 2nd level and for every 2 levels attained after 2nd level, as noted on Table: Witch. A witch cannot select an individual hex more than once.
Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the witch’s level + the witch’s Intelligence modifier.

Feather Fall
School transmutation; Level bard 1, bloodrager 1, magus 1, psychic 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, summoner/unchained summoner 1; Domain void 1; Subdomain feather 1; Elemental School air 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 immediate action
Components V
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one Medium or smaller free-falling object or creature/level, no two of which may be more than 20 ft. apart
Duration until landing or 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)

Levitate
School transmutation; Level alchemist 2, magus 2, medium 2, mesmerist 2, occultist 2, psychic 2, shaman 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, spiritualist 2, summoner/unchained summoner 2, witch 2; Domain void 2; Elemental School air 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a leather loop or golden wire bent into a cup shape)
EFFECT
Range personal or close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target you or one willing creature or one object (total weight up to 100 lbs./level)
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

Fly
School transmutation; Level alchemist 3, bloodrager 3, magus 3, shaman 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, summoner/unchained summoner 3, witch 3; Domain travel 3, void 3; Subdomain azata (chaos, good) 3, feather 3; Elemental School air 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a wing feather)
EFFECT
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

Flight* (Su)
The witch grows lighter as she gains power, eventually gaining the ability to fly.
Effect: At 1st level, the witch can use feather fall at will and gains a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. At 3rd level, she can cast levitate once per day. At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments. This hex only affects the witch.

Ok, so at the moment we're looking for the casting times. Step 1 is to consult the required action in the combat section.
"Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability’s description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
This places our initial assumption at standard action.
In the Supernatural Ability description, this is not listed. In the Hex description, it provides "Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action".
Our assumption is unchanged.
In the feather fall example, the hex says that it allows the casting of the spell. Thus, the assumption for casting time should be that of the spell, 1 immediate action, and it will require the typical components and risk of interruption of casting. Similarly, levitate is 1 standard action, and carries the same requirement. However, the use of fly gained at level 5 merely replicates the effects of the spell, and thus is a standard action as per our previous assumptions, requiring none of the components.

Another example could be the Communal Aid Warpriest blessing. Here's all the info:

Supernatural Abilities (Su)
Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.

Blessings (Su): A warpriest’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. Each warpriest can select two blessings from among those granted by his deity (each deity grants the blessings tied to its domains). A warpriest can select an alignment blessing (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain. If a warpriest isn’t devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two blessings to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities, subject to GM approval. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
Each blessing grants a minor power at 1st level and a major power at 10th level. A warpriest can call upon the power of his blessings a number of times per day (in any combination) equal to 3 + 1/2 his warpriest level (to a maximum of 13 times per day at 20th level). Each time he calls upon any one of his blessings, it counts against his daily limit. The save DC for these blessings is equal to 10 + 1/2 the warpriest’s level + the warpriest’s Wisdom modifier.
If a warpriest also has levels in a class that grants cleric domains, the blessings chosen must match the domains selected by that class. Subject to GM discretion, the warpriest can change his former blessings or domains to make them conform.

Communal Aid (minor): At 1st level, you can touch an
ally and grant it the blessing of community. For the next
minute, whenever that ally uses the aid another action, the
bonus granted increases to +4. You can instead use this
ability on yourself as a swift action.

As before with the hex, our initial assumption should be standard action.
Unlike with hexes, the blessings description does not say to assume the ability is a standard action, however in this case it would be unnecessary to specify.
Reading through the body of Communal Aid, we can conclude that the ability is normally a standard action to use, but is hastened to a swift action if used by the caster themselves.

Finally, we come to Battle Companion (also Warpriest):

Supernatural Abilities (Su)
Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.

Blessings (Su): A warpriest’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. Each warpriest can select two blessings from among those granted by his deity (each deity grants the blessings tied to its domains). A warpriest can select an alignment blessing (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain. If a warpriest isn’t devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two blessings to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities, subject to GM approval. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
Each blessing grants a minor power at 1st level and a major power at 10th level. A warpriest can call upon the power of his blessings a number of times per day (in any combination) equal to 3 + 1/2 his warpriest level (to a maximum of 13 times per day at 20th level). Each time he calls upon any one of his blessings, it counts against his daily limit. The save DC for these blessings is equal to 10 + 1/2 the warpriest’s level + the warpriest’s Wisdom modifier.
If a warpriest also has levels in a class that grants cleric domains, the blessings chosen must match the domains selected by that class. Subject to GM discretion, the warpriest can change his former blessings or domains to make them conform.

Summon Monster 4
School conjuration (summoning) [see text]; Level antipaladin 4, arcanist 4, bard 4, cleric/oracle 4, medium 3, psychic 4, skald 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, spiritualist 4, summoner 3, summoner (unchained) 3, warpriest 4, witch 4
CASTING
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, F/DF (a tiny bag and a small candle)
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one summoned creature
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

Battle Companion (major): At 10th level, you can summon
a battle companion. This ability functions as summon
monster IV with a duration of 1 minute, but for only a good
outsider or an animal with the celestial creature simple
template. This ability can summon only one creature,
regardless of the list used. For every 2 levels beyond 10th,
the level of the summon monster spell increases by 1 (to a
maximum of summon monster IX at 20th level).

Once again, the default time required to use a supernatural ability is 1 standard action, and the description of Blessings does nothing to change this.
The Battle Companion ability says that it "functions as" summon monster IV, which means that it replicates the effects but would not affect the casting time. Note the word "functions", which means that it achieves the goal, but does not specify the means. Thus, rather than this being a passive supernatural ability to allow the use of a spell, this is an active supernatural ability that merely replicates it's effects.
Therefore, this is a standard action.

If any member of Paizo staff could get involved and either confirm my beliefs or find my errors, that would be extremely helpful.

Thank you for reading however much of this as you cared to read.

[James Risner]

Lord_Bigot wrote:

If any member of Paizo staff could get involved and either confirm my beliefs or find my errors, that would be extremely helpful.

That is unlikely, and event if so it wouldn’t be official.

The only way to official answers is to get enough FAQ clicks and to have something simple.

Note complex things take years to get answers:
Overrun (no answer since 2008 - lots of threads with 20-90 FAQ clicks)
Bard Masterpeices (tons of FAQ - no answer)
Damage dice increases (500 faq - years - finally got an answer)

This isn’t simple (based on the length of the post) and it doesn’t have nearly enough faq clicks.

[Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller]

The problem I see is that all examples of "look, they list action types for supernatural abilities if they're not standard actions" are either
1) supernatural abilities with no spell as basis, or
2) supernatural abilities based on spells where the casting time is changed, but still not standard.

On one hand, there seems to be no example of a supernatural ability that says "this ability based on a spell with a casting time other than standard action is used as a standard action".
But neither is there a supernatural ability stating "this ability based on a spell with a casting time other than standard action is used as the same action type as the spell it's based on".

Which is why it's not entirely clear which of the two is supposed to be the base line - we don't really have any exceptions.