Summon Monster & Elementals


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Liberty's Edge 2/5

Hi,

I just wanted to know if in PFS it is legal to summon other than the standard elementals using Summon Monster spells? In the spell's description, it just states that you can summon elemental, but it does not specify the type of elementals you can summon.

Any input on this issue with and official ruling would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

2/5

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Summon monster is core rule book only unless something explicitly states otherwise.

A quick glance did not find the ruling, but I will edit if/when I do find it.

Edit: and shortly after, I found this from Mark Moreland

Scarab Sages 2/5

Yes, this is one of those "hidden long ago in the forums" answers. But, you can only summon the 4 'core' elements. Fire, water, air, earth.
Though, I really want lightning elementals!

Silver Crusade 4/5

Huh. I never knew that. I've seen a few people who have used lightning elementals quite a bit. I guess nobody ever realized that wasn't allowed.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Originally the restriction to Bestiary I elementals was based on Bestiary II not yet being added to the additional resources. I recall because I was arguing to get expanded elementals approved. I do not recall if the discussion was revisited after that, but last word was no to cummoning elementals other than those in Bestiary I.

4/5

So as I long suspected, the GM who had a BBEG use a standard summon monster spell to drop several Gibberng Mouthers on the table was more than a little off.

Silver Crusade 3/5

RealAlchemy wrote:
So as I long suspected, the GM who had a BBEG use a standard summon monster spell to drop several Gibberng Mouthers on the table was more than a little off.

The only way I know of to summon a gibbering mouther is with summon monster V as a worshiper of Rovagug. But Rovagug's alternate summons are not PFS legal and are based on 3.5 rules.

Liberty's Edge 3/5

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Would be nice to see the additional elementals get added in as legal options for Summon Monster, but it's not like casters need the help.

On a side note: can an aether kineticist actually use Spark of Life to summon an aether elemental from Bestiary 5?

Spark of Life:

Element universal; Type utility (Sp); Level 5; Burn 0
You breathe a semblance of life into elemental matter, which takes the form of a Medium elemental of any of your elements as if summoned by summon monster IV with a caster level equal to your kineticist level, except the elemental gains the mindless trait. Each round on your turn, you must take a move action to guide the elemental or it collapses back into its component element. By accepting 1 point of burn, you can pour a bit of your own sentience into the elemental, removing the mindless quality and allowing it to persist for 1 round per kineticist level without requiring any further actions. At 12th level, you can choose to form a Large elemental as if by summon monster V; at 14th level, you can choose to form a Huge elemental as if by summon monster VI; at 16th level, you can choose to form a greater elemental as if by summon monster VII; and at 18th level, you can choose to form an elder elemental as if by summon monster VIII.

2/5

This happens fairly frequently, pathfinder scenarios do not have their stat blocks or tactics restricted by Pathfinder Society legality. Whether or not the GM was right summoning gibberish mouthers, I have no way to tell without knowing the scenario and the specifics about that encounters stats. But it does not bypass what I said, only explicit;y said otherwise, you are limited to the core rule book for summons. That encounter may have said otherwise.

2/5

DrSwordopolis wrote:

Would be nice to see the additional elementals get added in as legal options for Summon Monster, but it's not like casters need the help.

On a side note: can an aether kineticist actually use Spark of Life to summon an aether elemental from Bestiary 5?

** spoiler omitted **

As of now, no. Note the "unless explicitly said otherwise" part.

Dataphiles 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Agent, Virginia—Hampton Roads

I have honestly allowed the other elementals as I didn't know about Mark's post.

After looking though in the additional resources the elementals are not called out for adding to the summon monster list even though a druid can wildshape into them as that is spelled out.

Additional Resources:

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary 2
Animal Companions: baboon, compsognathus, gar, hippopotamus, manta ray, ram, giant snapping turtle, stingray; Familiars: brownie, compsognathus, lyraken azata, snapping turtle, voidworm protean; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source; Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters. All languages found in this book are available for a character to learn with the linguistics skill.

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary 3
Animal Companions (p. 311): antelope, axe beak, dimetrodon, elk, giant chameleon, giant gecko, giant vulture, kangaroo, pachycephalosaurus, thylacine; Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 112-113 and the carbuncle and sprite; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source; Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters. All languages found in this book are available for a character to learn with the linguistics skill, except flail snail.

I guess it is time restrict the spell some in my games. :-)

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

GMs are not necessarily restricted to the same limitations as players. For example craft feats, evil alignments, etc. Summoning lightning elementals or gibbering mouthers may not be outside the scope of their purview.

Silver Crusade 3/5

IIRC the developers have intentionally left the summon monster lists compact. Their reasoning was that updating them with every bestiary release makes the spells more powerful through versatility with each release. If they continually expand the lists, then summon monster III will be more powerful next year than it is now, and it would be more powerful now than it was a year ago. They want to avoid this power creep in the summoning spells.

I'm not sure I agree with that reasoning, but it is what it is.

But I definitely do not agree with the reasoning that GMs should be breaking the rules that the players can't break.

Giving an NPC summoner access to summoned creatures outside of the standard list is no different than swapping out one of his feats for Augment Summoning (especially if he doesn't also have Spell Focus [conjuration]), or giving him a mythic tier.

If those things appear in the stat block, that is an entirely different story, because Paizo does a good job of only breaking those rules if they have a good—usually story-related—reason for doing so. And when they do break those rules, they (almost always) know how to balance them with respect to the larger encounter so as to not make the scenario too difficult.

Silver Crusade 3/5

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Bob Jonquet wrote:
GMs are not necessarily restricted to the same limitations as players. For example craft feats, evil alignments, etc. Summoning lightning elementals or gibbering mouthers may not be outside the scope of their purview.

I'm really hoping that Tonya or John will clarify this for us. If you are correct, then that is an enormous boon for GMs who feel like their hands are tied by the PFS rules to not alter scenarios—they can just change the game rules instead.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

As far as the summoning goes, a strict reading a RAW, would allow the summoning of elementals from Bestiary II-V, but the PFS RAI, they are not approved. Course, Tonya/John could comment otherwise.

5/5 *****

The Fox wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
GMs are not necessarily restricted to the same limitations as players. For example craft feats, evil alignments, etc. Summoning lightning elementals or gibbering mouthers may not be outside the scope of their purview.
I'm really hoping that Tonya or John will clarify this for us. If you are correct, then that is an enormous boon for GMs who feel like their hands are tied by the PFS rules to not alter scenarios—they can just change the game rules instead.

GM's are very clearly not limited to using the same sources as players. Numerous scenarios would simply not work if that were the case. Lots of scenario's have NPC's with classes, spells, feats etc which are not legal options for players. I can think of a couple immediately which have anti-paladins in them.

A GM summoning lightning elementals is a very different thing to saying that you can just change the game rules.

Dataphiles 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Agent, Virginia—Hampton Roads

Bob, If I am reading it right though the players don't have access to the B2-B5 for the Summon "X" spells but this isn't the first time (or last) this has come up.

YMMV at tables for sure.

Silver Crusade 3/5

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andreww wrote:
The Fox wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
GMs are not necessarily restricted to the same limitations as players. For example craft feats, evil alignments, etc. Summoning lightning elementals or gibbering mouthers may not be outside the scope of their purview.
I'm really hoping that Tonya or John will clarify this for us. If you are correct, then that is an enormous boon for GMs who feel like their hands are tied by the PFS rules to not alter scenarios—they can just change the game rules instead.

GM's are very clearly not limited to using the same sources as players. Numerous scenarios would simply not work if that were the case. Lots of scenario's have NPC's with classes, spells, feats etc which are not legal options for players. I can think of a couple immediately which have anti-paladins in them.

A GM summoning lightning elementals is a very different thing to saying that you can just change the game rules.

I am perfectly comfortable with writers and developers having access to things that players don't have access to. That isn't what we are talking about.

If a scenario specifically says that the BBEG summons a gibbering mouther, that's great. Awesome, even!

Again, we aren't talking about scenario authors. We are talking about GMs.

To put a finer point on it, I am supposed to GM a scenario next week that has a cleric BBEG with summon monster III. I think it would be cool if she used that to summon a skeletal champion. So I will just let her do so. It may not seem that big of a deal; the skeletal champion is CR 2, same as all of the other creatures on the summon monster III list. The problem is that I've just given her the benefit of the Skeleton Summoner feat (which has as a prerequisite another feat that she doesn't have on her). Maybe I didn't even know that was a feat, but that's what I've just done.

I might as well just give all of the BBEGs—especially the barbarians and the rogues—a flat +4 bonus to initiative, or a +1 dodge bonus to AC, or allow bull rush attempts at a +2 bonus and no attack of opportunity with characters that don't even have Power Attack.

3/5

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"Darius Silverbolt" quoting additional resources wrote:


Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters.

Good find. Seems pretty conclusive that critters from B2+3 are only available for polymorph spells, not summons.

GMs should be bound by that as well, unless a scenario overrides it.

5/5 *****

dragonhunterq wrote:
"Darius Silverbolt" quoting additional resources wrote:


Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters.

Good find. Seems pretty conclusive that critters from B2+3 are only available for polymorph spells, not summons.

GMs should be bound by that as well, unless a scenario overrides it.

GM's are not bound by additional resources.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

andreww wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
"Darius Silverbolt" quoting additional resources wrote:


Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters.

Good find. Seems pretty conclusive that critters from B2+3 are only available for polymorph spells, not summons.

GMs should be bound by that as well, unless a scenario overrides it.

GM's are not bound by additional resources.

Agreed, there is specific precedence that GMs are not bound by the AR.

They are allowed to use Tier appropriate stat blocks from the GMG or NPC Codex to add town guards if the PCs do something pretty egregious that would normally call for Town Guards to run to the rescue.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

The Fox wrote:
We are talking about GMs

No one is saying GMs can completely make things up or ignore base rule requirements such as the feat from your example. However, they are not bound to the same additional resource restrictions that players are. That being said, the limitations of that freedom is ambiguous, so GMs should keep as close to RAW as possible

Silver Crusade 3/5

Bob Jonquet wrote:
The Fox wrote:
We are talking about GMs
No one is saying GMs can completely make things up or ignore base rule requirements such as the feat from your example. However, they are not bound to the same additional resource restrictions that players are. That being said, the limitations of that freedom is ambiguous, so GMs should keep as close to RAW as possible

I am misreading things then.

It seems that you are in favor of allowing GMs to summon gibbering mouthers. That isn't covered by a feat.

It seems that andreww is in agreement with you.

It seems that Andrew Christian is in agreement with you.

That seems to me like three people are saying exactly that GMs can completely make things up and ignore base rule requirements.

5/5 *****

The Fox wrote:

It seems that you are in favor of allowing GMs to summon gibbering mouthers. That isn't covered by a feat.

It seems that andreww is in agreement with you.

I haven't said anything of the sort. I have said that if a creature appears as a rules legal source for a summon then a GM controlled NPC may well be able to summon it. It would have to appear on a summon list in a paizo source somewhere and be available to said NPC.

To take a slightly less obscure reference I would have no issue with an NPC caster summoning a lightning elemental even though a PC could not.

You are suggesting that GM's can simply make stuff up which is not true at all. I am saying GM's can, where appropriate, make use of rules from a wider range of sources than PC's can but it still has to be rules legal for that NPC. You cannot just add stuff to their stat block because you feel like it.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Ok. Then we are in agreement. A BBEG summoner cannot summon a gibbering mouther. Good. :)

2/5

I have already said it twice...

You can only use the core rule book for summon monsters unless explicitly stated elsewhere. Stat blocks in scenarios that EXPLICITLY say you can summon gibbering mouthers, allow you to summon gibbering mouthers.

If the stat block does not EXPLICITLY say you can summon gibbering mouthers, then you can not summon them. GM status means nothing here.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

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It is pointedly apparent that I am not allowing enough spellcasters to summon gibbering mouthers. I should fix that.

2/5

John Compton wrote:
It is pointedly apparent that I am not allowing enough spellcasters to summon gibbering mouthers. I should fix that.

A corrupt fey who summons gibbering mouthers and Pugwampi's would be awesome!

Liberty's Edge 5/5

The Fox wrote:
Ok. Then we are in agreement. A BBEG summoner cannot summon a gibbering mouther. Good. :)

As far as I know, there is nothing from the standard spell that would allow a GM to make this decision. So unless the stat block included the worship of a deity that allowed it, they certainly could.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Agent, Georgia—Atlanta

John Compton wrote:
It is pointedly apparent that I am not allowing enough spellcasters to summon gibbering mouthers. I should fix that.

Spoiler:
and follow up again with that scenario where the illusionary gibbering mouther eats you again, too? Maybe follow up with a chronicle sheet boon eventually allowing players to summon them? Or have one as an animal companion or improved familiar?
Silver Crusade 4/5

Man, these forums will start a flame war over ANYTHING.

Tindalen, NPCs are not bound by the Additional Resources list. That list is specifically character creation rules for PCs. That's it. So NPCs can use any game rules, even if they're not in the Additional Resources, or violate the Guild Guide rules for character creation. For instance, NPCs can be evil, and PCs can't.

Similarly, NPCs can summon lightning elementals, and PCs can't. That's GM discretion if the adventure's tactics don't specifically say what they use their summon spell for.

2/5

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Fromper wrote:

Man, these forums will start a flame war over ANYTHING.

Tindalen, NPCs are not bound by the Additional Resources list. That list is specifically character creation rules for PCs. That's it. So NPCs can use any game rules, even if they're not in the Additional Resources, or violate the Guild Guide rules for character creation. For instance, NPCs can be evil, and PCs can't.

Similarly, NPCs can summon lightning elementals, and PCs can't. That's GM discretion if the adventure's tactics don't specifically say what they use their summon spell for.

I agree completely, that's what I was saying. If a scenario breaks the rules by explicitly saying so, then it is allowed. If the scenario does not say you can do it, then you can't.

*

Mephits are elementals. And PFS legal.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber

I have to admit, only rarely will I as GM use an NPCs summoning ability, unless it's explicitly called out in the statblock tactics. Adding more creatures to the board makes things more complicated and gives you more things to keep track of....

Silver Crusade 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Additional Resources wrote:

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary

Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat, dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon, rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus; Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 131-133; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source; Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters. All languages found in this book are available for a character to learn with the linguistics skill, except aboleth and drow sign language.

The issue isn't one of Additional Resources. The Additional Resources don't call out monsters as being summon-able at all. The issue is that a developer in a message board post said that we couldn't summon elementals outside of the main four. That means it applies to players and GMs alike, just like any other forum clarification.

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed a series of derailing/baiting posts and the responses to them.

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