How to Kill the Tarrasque


Rules Questions

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Something important to keep in mind: Regeneration states that "[Creatures] cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0)."

If you read the "If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains." as "a death effect *does* kill it for three rounds", then you can save-or-die the Tarrasque and then may be able to turn it undead. But simply doing tons of damage will never kill it.

Also, once you've re-killed the undead Tarrasque, it's simply "dead" again, and might rise from *that* death three rounds later...

Dark Archive

More likely, you'd raise the tarrasque as a zombie (and why the hell would you do that anyway?). Then it'd come back to life anyway. On the other hand, could you even use Animate Dead on a tarrasque to begin with? And if so, just how high of a level would you need to be to turn it into a zombie?!


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Regeneration (Ex) wrote:
No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration
Regeneration (Ex) wrote:
Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

These are the things that the tarrasque ability protects against, things that would otherwise suppress its regeneration by preventing it from functioning.

Regeneration (Ex) wrote:
Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

These are things that regeneration just doesn't affect. They don't suppress regeneration at all - it's still working fine - they just aren't the sort of thing it has any influence over. So ability damage and negative levels and damage from suffocation aren't influenced by regeneration of any sort, even the tarrasques. Arguing that a tarrasque's regeneration protects it from suffocation is equivalent to arguing that it protects it from "attack forms that don't deal hit point damage," as both are simply not in a category that regeneration affects.


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Kahel Stormbender wrote:
More likely, you'd raise the tarrasque as a zombie (and why the hell would you do that anyway?). Then it'd come back to life anyway. On the other hand, could you even use Animate Dead on a tarrasque to begin with? And if so, just how high of a level would you need to be to turn it into a zombie?!

Based on the writeup, I believe it would become a normal tarrasque 3 rounds after it was killed, essentially wasting your spell. But to raise your zombie tarrasque for the 2 rounds or so you'd get it ... You'd need to be caster level 15 to animate* 30 HD of undead tarrasque zombie in a single casting of the spell (unless you were in an area of Desecrate, in which case caster level 8 would do the trick).

You'd also need a single onyx worth 750 GP, which might or might not be hard to come by depending on your GM (since they're semi-precious and normally only worth ~50 GP).


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Melkiador wrote:
I do wonder what happens when you animate its corpse. Does the undead gain the regeneration or does a living terrasque pop next to the undead one after 3 rounds.

I figure it would just regenerate over top of the skeleton and become a Tarrasque. Though an army of Tarrasque skeletons would be kind of cool.


Back in 2nd edition, we just had our super high level mage cast reverse gravity on the area it was in. basically put the thing in orbit....

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Avoron wrote:
These are things that regeneration just doesn't affect. They don't suppress regeneration at all - it's still working fine - they just aren't the sort of thing it has any influence over. So ability damage and negative levels and damage from suffocation aren't influenced by regeneration of any sort, even the tarrasques. Arguing that a tarrasque's regeneration protects it from suffocation is equivalent to arguing that it protects it from "attack forms that don't deal hit point damage," as both are simply not in a category that regeneration affects.

That's okay, it's immune to most things its regeneration doesn't cover.

Quote:
Immune ability damage, acid, bleed, disease, energy drain, fire, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, permanent wounds, petrification, poison, polymorph;


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Blackvial wrote:
you find the plot device that your dm create to kill it

No such thing.

I C H O M P ! ! ! those GMs.

Besides, they were wrong. All of them. In this case, there are no house rules (any such house rule would suppress my regeneration, which cannot be suppressed).

For all intents and purposes, I AM the rock so heavy your GM cannot lift it...


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Melkiador wrote:
I do wonder what happens when you animate its corpse. Does the undead gain the regeneration or does a living terrasque pop next to the undead one after 3 rounds.

That's been tried.

You get a ME zombie for 18 seconds, then it collapses into dust and I rise from the ashes like a big, beautiful, heavily-armored, unbelievably hungry, extraordinarily angry phoenix.

Bah, who am I kidding. No phoenix was ever as awesome as ME!

Shadow Lodge

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*lifts DM_Blake*


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Avoron wrote:
These are things that regeneration just doesn't affect. They don't suppress regeneration at all - it's still working fine - they just aren't the sort of thing it has any influence over. So ability damage and negative levels and damage from suffocation aren't influenced by regeneration of any sort, even the tarrasques. Arguing that a tarrasque's regeneration protects it from suffocation is equivalent to arguing that it protects it from "attack forms that don't deal hit point damage," as both are simply not in a category that regeneration affects.

That's okay, it's immune to most things its regeneration doesn't cover.

Quote:
Immune ability damage, acid, bleed, disease, energy drain, fire, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, permanent wounds, petrification, poison, polymorph;

But not to suffocation or starvation, which was the point I was making.

Hibernation helps deal with that, but has its own issues.


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Bah, I am completely immune to starvation. I'm literally starving all the time. ALL THE TIME! I'm starving right now.

If starvation could kill ME, I would have been dead ages ago.

Suffocation is mean. I don't like it. I need air. I might die if you suffocate me...but only for 18 seconds, then you have to do it again. But I'll CHOMP!!! you before I let you do it twice.

Shadow Lodge

Avoron wrote:
But not to suffocation or starvation, which was the point I was making.

I would call those 'permanent wounds'.


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Hmm...
No. Slow Suffocation and Starvation can't kill the Tarrasque.
Even if the non-lethal damage carries over into lethal damage (a rule I can only find for slow suffocation, not starvation) - the Tarrasque is still immune to death by damage (its regeneration doesn't heal (non-lethal) damage caused by either starvation or slow suffocation, but since those don't disable its regeneration, it still can't *die*), so it would just be locked in an unconcious state.
Until some crazy fanatic finds a way to restore said hitpoints - like, slipping a Ring of Sustenance on the Tarrasque's claw, casting Dream Feast on it, maybe just shove tons of cows or virgin sacrifices or virgin cowboy sacrifices down its unconcious throat. Or in the case of slow suffocation, simply bringing it somewhere it can breath and waiting a bit longer than usual (it's still *alive*, it just needs to recover HP regularily, even if regeneration won't work).

Why did I specifically mention *slow* suffocation? Slow suffocation is "in a sealed room, running out of air". Slow suffocation causes non-lethal, then lethal damage. "Regular" suffocation (strangulation, drowning...) doesn't do damage, you just fail a few saving throws and then you die. And, in the case of the Tarrasque, then you come back, because nothing in regeneration states that you can't be brought back from *death* caused by suffocation - it just doesn't recover the HP, but then, again, HP damage can't kill the Tarrasque.

So, yeah - starving and/or suffocating it are great ways to keep it locked up, but it can still be brought back - it's just unconcious, not dead. The important part is that it actually needs someone to bring it back - to bad that Golgarion is full enough of crazy people who'd try.


So, what happens when you shove the Tarrasque into Rovagug's impenetrable, inescapable bubble?

Heheheh, suckers!


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I am reborn again.

This time, it's P E R S O N A L ! ! !

(Yep, a tarrasque with a tagline - let's pretend it isn't the same tagline as the worst Jaws movie ever made, though, hmmmm, Jaws does seem fitting, sort of, but even that shark was tiny compared to ME!!!)

Grand Lodge

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@TOZ: Got a definition, somewhere, for a permanent wound? Closest I could find was about the condition of lameness being caused by a permanent wound.

As to the Tarrasque, it appears that it is missing the sub-type of creature it should be, or the sub-type for it was created afterwards: behemoth sub-type
Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack can suppress a behemoth's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If a behemoth fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is dealt to its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported away as a means to save a region, but the only way to truly kill a behemoth is to use miracle or wish to negate its regeneration (see below).
* Vulnerable to Miracles and Wishes (Su) A spell effect created by a miracle or wish spell is particularly effective against a behemoth. A spellcaster gains a +6 bonus on its caster level check to penetrate a behemoth's SR with a miracle or wish spell, and the behemoth suffers a –6 penalty on saves against these spells. A miracle or a wish spell can negate a behemoth's regeneration, but only for 1d4 rounds per casting.

Interesting, isn't it.


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kinevon wrote:
Interesting, isn't it.

Yes, it is. If only my subtype weren't "magical beast". I do think I like the new one better - it has a few new tricks I didn't know about. For instance, i wouldn't ever have to worry about suffocation anymore. And it does seem to describe me perfectly, like a well-tailored suit.

Shadow Lodge

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kinevon wrote:
@TOZ: Got a definition, somewhere, for a permanent wound?

NOPE! Which means the GM has to make a judgement call. As I just did. :D


And this is why we need a distinct separation of flavor text and rules text.

Dark Archive

TOZ wrote:
kinevon wrote:
@TOZ: Got a definition, somewhere, for a permanent wound?
NOPE! Which means the GM has to make a judgement call. As I just did. :D

"I use to be a virtually unstoppable juggernaut, then I took an arrow to the knee."

"Which knee grandpa?"

"It doesn't matter, I'm the tarrasque. I ate the archer, then became an even more unstoppable."

*eats kid*

"And don't call me grandpa."

*eats rest of village, six dozen adventurers, a mage academy, three armies, and a forth of a continent before being banished to a different plane, again*

Sound about right?


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Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Sound about right?

That was what? Five planes ago? Six? It's always nice to meet eat a fan who's read my biography...

C H O M P ! ! !

Dark Archive

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*appears standing on DM_Blake's nose wearing armor made of Unbelievium, in all her foxy glory*

Silly rabbit, don't you know that tricks are for kitsune?

*tosses a 3 gallon sized bowl of Trix cereal, with milk into DM_Blake's mouth*

EDIT:

And now I feel the need to make a kitsune arcane trickster (assuming they get baleful polymorph) or sorcerer just so I can use that line in-game after turning a bad guy into a rabbit.

Dark Archive

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...Wouldn't sphere of anhilation still defeat the setting neutral non spawn of Rovagug Tarrasque since 1) Its not death effect, its "You just got sucked into miniature black hole yo" 2) I'm not sure any god besides Rovagug would do divine intervation to bring Tarrasque back?

Like, I know you just discussed it, but sphere of anhilation isn't exactly killing target, it just... Makes them not exist anymore. If it was just "destroying them on subatomic level", it wouldn't prevent true resurrection from working.

Dark Archive

Think about it. Buu punched his way out of a pocket dimension, and Superboy Prime punched his way out of a dimension. When he had no super powers at the time. The tarrasque being able to respawn after being sucked into a black hole is nothing compared to those bullcarp powers of Plot Device.


I'm no plot device.

A chandelier is a plot device - go swing on it. A cliff is a plot device - go climb it. A mcguffin is a plot device - go find it.

ME, I'm a plot. A giant, armored plot. Period.

Dark Archive

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Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Think about it. Buu punched his way out of a pocket dimension, and Superboy Prime punched his way out of a dimension. When he had no super powers at the time. The tarrasque being able to respawn after being sucked into a black hole is nothing compared to those bullcarp powers of Plot Device.

Tarrasque (and even in setting with other spawn of rovagug) are sealable/being able to be banished/transported to other planes though.

I'm bit sceptical about Tarrasque being able to will itself back to existence once being removed from it though xP


The Problem with a Sphere of Annihilation is: It's a Minor Artifact.

Hence, it's also a Plot Device. You're using one Plot Device against another.

I mean, sure - the SoA has the "Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character."-clause...
....but, rules-laywering: The Tarrasque is a monster, not a character. Teach it some class levels before you try this.
...and more seriously: Yes, this should technically kill it... baring direct divine intervention. So, one plot device can be killed by another plot device. In that case, you might as well use any other plot device, because the Tarrasque eats any plot device that the GM doesn't call out as being Tarrasque-indible.

Dark Archive

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Yes, but Sphere of Anhilation is plot device that doesn't need to be invented by GM as homebrew if they are too uncomfortable of creating "+5 Longsword of slaying Rovagug's spawn" or "Artifact which's only purpose is killing Tarrasque" thingy xD

Though you are right in that you could use other plot devices. Like, didn't deck of many things have a card that allows reality to be rewritten?


You can't kill the tarrasque - only imprison it.

Incidentally this is an area where the rules really are irrelevant. Only completion of a story goal can imprison the tarrasque.

Surviving long enough to Imprison it should be the topic of the thread.


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Per RAW, raising it as undead shpuld work.


You can't raise from dead, something that isn't dead.

Dark Archive

Ye, killing Tarrasque by making it undead wouldn't work because you need to kill it first :p You can't make unconsious being into undead without killing them


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The Sword wrote:
You can't raise from dead, something that isn't dead.

Per RAW, it dies. It just comes back to life after a while... (Unless you make it an undead).


Lemmy wrote:
Per RAW, raising it as undead shpuld work.

Already suggested, and has multiple "gray areas":

* Death Effects *might* kill the Tarrasque for three rounds, depending on how you read the "comes back three rounds later"-clause. If you read that as "it isn't *really* dead", then no, you can't raise it. If you read that as "it's dead for a little while", then yes, you could raise it before it returns.
* You now have an undead Tarrasque. What do you do with it? If you keep it around, well, then you have an undead Tarrasque that lacks regeneration, so sooner or later, someone's gonna kill it. If you kill it, it's a dead Tarrasque again, so it'll come back three rounds later.


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That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.


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Ajit Shyama, Shadow Caller wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Per RAW, raising it as undead shpuld work.

Already suggested, and has multiple "gray areas":

* Death Effects *might* kill the Tarrasque for three rounds, depending on how you read the "comes back three rounds later"-clause. If you read that as "it isn't *really* dead", then no, you can't raise it. If you read that as "it's dead for a little while", then yes, you could raise it before it returns.
* You now have an undead Tarrasque. What do you do with it? If you keep it around, well, then you have an undead Tarrasque that lacks regeneration, so sooner or later, someone's gonna kill it. If you kill it, it's a dead Tarrasque again, so it'll come back three rounds later.

It literally says the Tarrasque "rises from death". You can't "rise from death" if you aren't dead.


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RDM42 wrote:

That is not dead which can eternal lie,

And with strange aeons even death may die.

you mean a fighting between Cthulhu and Tarrasque ?

i want a ticket!

BHH


buzzqw wrote:
RDM42 wrote:

That is not dead which can eternal lie,

And with strange aeons even death may die.

you mean a fighting between Cthulhu and Tarrasque ?

i want a ticket!

BHH

Cthulhu wins and Big T bites the big one, but the Tarrasque manages to eat more investigators per round than Big C, which ticks the guy right off, so as he's getting ready to devour everyone, someone comes along and hits him in the head with a great big boat, and he decides the stars aren't yet right and goes back to sleep. And gives birth to a baby squidTarrasque. Fertively. The end.


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Tacticslion wrote:
buzzqw wrote:
RDM42 wrote:

That is not dead which can eternal lie,

And with strange aeons even death may die.

you mean a fighting between Cthulhu and Tarrasque ?

i want a ticket!

BHH

Cthulhu wins and Big T bites the big one, but the Tarrasque manages to eat more investigators per round than Big C, which ticks the guy right off, so as he's getting ready to devour everyone, someone comes along and hits him in the head with a great big boat, and he decides the stars aren't yet right and goes back to sleep. And gives birth to a baby squidTarrasque. Fertively. The end.

Still a better love story than Twilight.


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Lemmy wrote:
It literally says the Tarrasque "rises from death". You can't "rise from death" if you aren't dead.

That still doesn't deal with point two: How do you keep it undead? If some pesky adventurer comes along and kills it, it's just dead again.

Actually, that might be a neat trap (and by neat, I mean horrifying) - the players fight a zombie Tarrasque. When they manage to slay it - to bad, it comes back, actually stronger than before. That'll teach those pesky adventurers to just kill anything without thinking about the consequences!


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Actually, when you reduce an undead to 0 hp, it's destroyed, not killed, so it doesn't go back to dead, it just ceases to be.

But more importantly... Once you animate its corpse, it's under your control, so it's no longer a threat, which is the main goal of fighting it in the first place.


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Ajit Shyama, Shadow Caller wrote:
That still doesn't deal with point two: How do you keep it undead?

Couple of ways, depending on what you mean.

Zombie, Regeneration, Tarrasque.

The strongest is straightforward:

Zombie Template wrote:
Str +2, Dex –2. A zombie has no Con or Int score, and its Wis and Cha become 10.

... and,

Regeneration wrote:
A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

... so it loses its regeneration. And when reduced to 0 hp as a zombie it is destroyed, not killed, a minor, but important technical difference.

But, another possible way (depending on interpretation) is,

Quote:
Defensive Abilities: Zombies lose their defensive abilities and gain all of the qualities and immunities granted by the undead type. Zombies gain DR 5/slashing.

Regeneration is listed under "defense" for a creature's abilities.

Finally, an argument could be made about "special qualities" but it's a semantic argument, rather than a rules argument, so it's much weaker.


Tacticslion wrote:
Ajit Shyama, Shadow Caller wrote:
That still doesn't deal with point two: How do you keep it undead?

Couple of ways, depending on what you mean.

Zombie, Regeneration, Tarrasque.

The strongest is straightforward:

Zombie Template wrote:
Str +2, Dex –2. A zombie has no Con or Int score, and its Wis and Cha become 10.

... and,

Regeneration wrote:
A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

... so it loses its regeneration. And when reduced to 0 hp as a zombie it is destroyed, not killed, a minor, but important technical difference.

But, another possible way (depending on interpretation) is,

Quote:
Defensive Abilities: Zombies lose their defensive abilities and gain all of the qualities and immunities granted by the undead type. Zombies gain DR 5/slashing.

Regeneration is listed under "defense" for a creature's abilities.

Finally, an argument could be made about "special qualities" but it's a semantic argument, rather than a rules argument, so it's much weaker.

You are posting the wrong link for Tarrasque regeneration.

Tarrasque wrote:
Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

Emphasis mine

Death does not suppress Tarrasque regeneration, nor does anything else, including destruction.


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Snowlilly wrote:
Tarrasque wrote:
Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

Emphasis mine

Death does not suppress Tarrasque regeneration, nor does anything, including destruction.

"Death" and "Undeath" are not forms of attack... Neither is turning something into an undead.

There is nothing in that text that says the Tarrasque is immune to the changes caused by becoming an undead... Or to destruction.


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Lemmy wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Tarrasque wrote:
Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

Emphasis mine

Death does not suppress Tarrasque regeneration, nor does anything, including destruction.

"Death" and "Undeath" are not forms of attack... Neither is turning something into an undead.

There is nothing in that text that says the Tarrasque is immune to the changes caused by becoming an undead... Or to destruction.

With spells like commune, contact other plane, legend lore, vision, etc... if animating the Tarrasque "corpse", suffocating it, starving it, using a sphere of annihilation, or anything else were capable of killing it someone would know but according to the Bestiary:

PRD wrote:
but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

Do you honestly think the most powerful wizards and priests in the world have not thought to ask questions like "Can the Tarrasque be killed by suffocation?"

The phrase "the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered" should be interpreted as "it is impossible to truly kill it".


Lemmy wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Tarrasque wrote:
Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.

Emphasis mine

Death does not suppress Tarrasque regeneration, nor does anything, including destruction.

"Death" and "Undeath" are not forms of attack... Neither is turning something into an undead.

There is nothing in that text that says the Tarrasque is immune to the changes caused by becoming an undead... Or to destruction.

Attack: verb 1. Take aggressive action against.

You can destroy the body: Disintegration certainly does that. As with disintegration, Tarrasque regeneration is not suppressed, the Tarrasque still returns after three rounds.

You can argue semantics, and try to dice those semantics ever so thinly and carefully to achieve any result you want with the English language, but intent is very clear and final arbitration on the semantics falls to the GM.


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Turning a corpse into an undead doesn't seem like an attack under any definition. It's pretty hard to call anything done to a corpse an attack, but most of the spells you could use to take advantage of that only work on creatures.

What happens if you polymorph the corpse into a living creature? Would the terrasque just appear next to the new creature after 3 rounds?


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Snowlilly wrote:

Attack: verb 1. Take aggressive action against.

You can destroy the body: Disintegration certainly does that. As with disintegration, Tarrasque regeneration is not suppressed, the Tarrasque still returns after three rounds.

You can argue semantics, and try to dice those semantics ever so thinly and carefully to achieve any result you want with the English language, but intent is very clear and final arbitration on the semantics falls to the GM.

Wait... You manage to ignorei RAW, quote the dictionary definition of a word and still claim *I* am the one discussing semantics?! Wow... The lack of self-awareness is astounding...

First... Dictionary definitions of a term are not always the same as the game's definition. Casting "Animate Undead" wouldn't break invisibility, for example.

Second, even if we're using the quoted definition, death and undeath are still not attacks. They are just Duciomar of being... You could possibly make a point about casting the spell, but nothing says Animate Dead is "an agressive act" against the corpse. Destruction isn't an attack either... It might be the consequence of being attacked, but destruction itself is not an attack.

Third, the spell isn't what removes thr Regeneration ability... It's the zombie template itself. And the template isn't an attack either.


Lemmy wrote:


Second, even if we're using the quoted definition, death and undeath are still not attacks. They are just conditions of being... You could possibly make a point about casa ing the spell, but nothing says Animate Dead is "an agressive act" against the corpse.

You are taking a specific action to alter the state of the Tarrasque for the express purpose of bypassing its regeneration (which remains active even while dead) and permanently kill it.

I would call that an aggressive act, i.e. an attack.

As a GM, I would allow the Tarrasque to rise as an undead, for three rounds. After that, you've got a living Tarrasque once more. The spell worked, the regeneration was not suppressed.

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