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Regarding the recent thread about Supreme Court justice Scalia's death that got locked, I found parts of it to be interesting reading. So, I would like to try to continue the decent part of that discussion: What duty do we have to respect the dead? How should we speak of someone we despised who has died? Does someone being famous change any of it?
Please, I implore you guys, don't keep discussing Scalia. I understand full well why Paizo is not comfortable with that.
A number of years ago, one of the major financial guys in Sweden, Stenbeck, died. He was in his fifties, and sharply overweight. He was a man with a very rough, rather abrasive public persona. He was, by some accounts, brilliant. He was seen by others as a parasite and an awful human being. What felt very strange to me at the time was that when he had died, long-standing political enemies of his spoke at length of how admirable he had been, how impressive his life's work had been, and so on. It felt mostly like them saying "now that you're dead, I can say whatever I like about you, and it just got safe to praise you now that it means nothing."
Oh, and the Havamal quote is harsher than written in the other thread: "Folk dör, fä dör, själv dör du. Men ett vet jag som aldrig dör: dom över död man.", roughly translated to "People die, cattle die, you die yourself. But one thing I know which never dies: judgement of a dead man."
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I try to respect the dead, even if I disagreed with the person or didn't like them. I might not always succeed, as in a case of some truly evil POS. I try not to crow about it, however. Seems to me that would make me no better than those a@#~#$!s in the Westboro Baptist Church.
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Thing about dying is, it doesn't change who you were. It doesn't retroactively make you a saint, nor a villain. Undisputably, there are people around that the world would be better off without, but once they are dead, the point of showing your hatred for them kind of goes away, doesn't it? I mean, one point of showing your emotions for something is to make them change, and that person certainly won't. If someone else praises what they did, it seems to me that discussing those things instead of the dead person is more productive, no?
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There are several factors here. I think the most salient one is that there are still-living people who respected that person and who will miss their absence. It's classy to stay out of the way for a little while while they grieve and remember that person.
There's a time to calmly discuss these things. That time isn't when emotions are high unless the conversation won't be possible later.
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It is also one thing to respect a mourning family... But if the person who died is a very vocal and very public figure, it becomes a slightly different matter to me. And it does increase the likelihood that some discussions must be had immediately.
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Regarding the recent thread about Supreme Court justice Scalia's death that got locked, I found parts of it to be interesting reading. So, I would like to try to continue the decent part of that discussion: What duty do we have to respect the dead? How should we speak of someone we despised who has died? Does someone being famous change any of it?
I am fond of Rex Stout's phrasing on this issue, through his famous detective Nero Wolfe (The Black Mountain):
I pay [the dead man] the tribute of speaking of him and feeling about him precisely as I did when he lived; the insult would be to smear his corpse with the honey excreted by my fear of death.
I would like to explain my thoughts on this, especially since my opinions changed a lot after some events in my life. However, I think it might be best if I wait for the mods to get back before I participate in this thread (if at all).
I will say that I'm happy to hear everyone's opinions, especially if they are different then my own.
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In the various comments I saw after the death of David Bowie, there were a few who felt it important to interrupt the love-in with mention of his having sex with an underaged groupie, or about Tanith Lee, more recently, with how some of her erotic storylines could get a little rape-y.
I don't see that as disrespecting the dead, as accepting the bad with the good, of a person.
But dead is dead, and if you've got nothing nice to say about someone, perhaps there's no good to be served by letting the world (which likely could care less) know how much you hated someone.
To pick someone who few here would uphold as deserving some sort of special respect in death, his death didn't change Osama bin Laden's life and legacy, but I've got no reason to jump up and celebrate his death, firing my guns into the air and praising God. The sort of people who would be impressed by that sort of display (and that's really how I see it, as posturing to earn the respect of others) are the sorts of people I manifestly don't seek the approval of.
The golden rule remains a good guideline, I think.
There's also the question of time. This would be the definition of 'too soon,' I think. It's generally considered fine to talk smack about what a jerk Hitler was, or how racist Lovecraft could get, since anyone who loved them in life is as dead and dust as they are and not likely to have their feelings hurt by insensitive victory parties chanting 'ding, dong, the witch is dead' during their time of grief for those people.
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Generally speaking, I find the glorification of another's death to be crass and distasteful. I have never been in a situation where I've observed somebody do a victory lap over the death of somebody else and had my opinion of that person improved; usually it's the opposite.
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Dying doesnot make you more or less worthy of praise or criticism.
I just find the celevation and gloating about the death of a fellow human being, no matter how horrible they were, barbaric.
In the odd situation, I actually find myself agreeing with you for the most part.
The celebrating of someone's death before they are even buried or had their services seems somewhat appalling in most instances.
I was shocked to see how some on these boards treat the recently dead.
We need Ender to be a "Speaker for the Dead."
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With someone truly monstrous, the rules of the game again seem to change. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, the kind of people who murdered millions for their own ends, it seems to me there are two ways of responding. Either "be dead and trouble us no more", or "woohoo, we can make a new life now!". Their deaths do force us to tell a lot of stories, to bury not only them but a lot of our own pasts as well. Whatever they were, they were important, and them living were a constant ache to the relatives of their victims.
It is not a simple thing not to respond to that with celebration. However, you can celebrate the new that comes without specifically trash-talking them.
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In the immediate aftermath, I think it's generally respectful to either say something nice, or nothing. People are having strong emotions and it's as much for them as the dead person.
Just because you bite your tongue for a few days does not mean you're being silenced. Rather, save the "truth telling" for next week. The person will be dead for a long, long time and you can speak about them at any point... up until your death.
If someone dies and you feel the need to write/say something about all the bad things they did... sleep on it. Maybe twice. The world will still be here and you can still say anything you feel needs to be said. Doing so in the heat of peak emotions rarely adds that much value to a situation.
Why can't the strong emotions be jubilee?
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I think there is a difference between respect for dead bodies and grieving families on one hand and respect for people who have died on the other.
The first is hard wired into society the second depends entirely on the person. I will slow down or incline my head if an occupied herse drives past but I have no issue slating Margaret Thatcher.
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Hate the game, not the playa
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Echoing what others have already said, my opinions on respect for the dead boil down to:
* The deceased is due no greater or lesser respect for having died than I gave him or her when living;
* but I should keep in mind that he or she no longer has the ability to defend against any criticisms I may have;
* and in any case, ordinary respect for grieving family and friends obliges me to keep any negative opinions to myself in any public forum where they might be subjected to my views. Preferably indefinitely, but at the very least for a decent period of mourning.
I think it statistically unlikely that any of Justice Scalia's close friends frequent these boards, so I feel comfortable having expressing my [negative] opinion of his work in the now-locked thread. No need to rehash it here.
No matter what anyone thought of him politically, there was never any justification for celebrating his death. SC justices can retire, they're not required to die in office. The most that could be celebrated is that he's no longer on the bench. Anything beyond that makes one a miserable excuse for a human being.
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Just so we're all clear here tho.
All rules go in the trash, in the advent of a Zombie apocalypse.
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Yep. Sign me up for chainsaws, katanas, shotguns and baseball bats to hand out some proper respect for the dead. In the event of a zombocalypse. :-)
Echoing what others have already said, my opinions on respect for the dead boil down to:
* The deceased is due no greater or lesser respect for having died than I gave him or her when living;
* but I should keep in mind that he or she no longer has the ability to defend against any criticisms I may have;
* and in any case, ordinary respect for grieving family and friends obliges me to keep any negative opinions to myself in any public forum where they might be subjected to my views. Preferably indefinitely, but at the very least for a decent period of mourning.
I think it statistically unlikely that any of Justice Scalia's close friends frequent these boards, so I feel comfortable having expressing my [negative] opinion of his work in the now-locked thread. No need to rehash it here.
No matter what anyone thought of him politically, there was never any justification for celebrating his death. SC justices can retire, they're not required to die in office. The most that could be celebrated is that he's no longer on the bench. Anything beyond that makes one a miserable excuse for a human being.
I am a firm believer that we cannot progress society until the ones holding us back die. I look forward to the day that happens.
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I caught a rat in my hand the other day (long, weird story that one is).
Due to the situations I caught it in, I should have killed it on the spot.
But I couldn't.
While I had it in my hand, I could feel the softness of its fur, the warmth of its body, the rapid beating of its heart.
It was a life, and while I was under obligations to kill it, I couldn't bring myself to do so.
It's just not who I am.
Life is a special, unique kind of thing.
And it all ends just the same.
We shouldn't rejoice in another's death, for the other was a living being too.
Even the most wicked person was still a person.
Even the most monstrous among us was once someone's darling child, someone's radiant love, someone's inspiration to live.
You may not agree with them, but out there there is someone who does and they are just as much a person as you are.
Before you speak ill of the dead, imagine someone else doing the same about someone you approve of, someone you draw inspiration from.
If you find yourself turning bitter at the thought, then it's best not to speak ill of the dead.
You may rejoice that someone's reign is over; that their policies are at an end, that they will no longer be able to harm or wreck.
Do not rejoice at their end itself.
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I am a firm believer that we cannot progress society until the ones holding us back die. I look forward to the day that happens.
A person needn't die to stop "holding us back." A person might change his viewpoint (I can't imagine Scalia ever doing that) or simply be removed from a position where he can influence outcomes (Scalia could have retired for health reasons), obstructionist politicians can be voted out of office, loudmouth anti-whatever activists can be out-talked, etc.
You don't have to exterminate the opposition, only outnumber them by a wide enough margin.
I caught a rat in my hand the other day (long, weird story that one is).
OK, you have to share that story! If you don't want to post it in this thread, there is a tell us about your weird pets thread in off topic. I have a much loved pet today because my friend just decided to pick up a rat and adopt it.
I am a firm believer that we cannot progress society until the ones holding us back die. I look forward to the day that happens.A person needn't die to stop "holding us back." A person might change his viewpoint (I can't imagine Scalia ever doing that) or simply be removed from a position where he can influence outcomes (Scalia could have retired for health reasons), obstructionist politicians can be voted out of office, loudmouth anti-whatever activists can be out-talked, etc.
You don't have to exterminate the opposition, only outnumber them by a wide enough margin.
No, I'm talking most babyboomers and older. Can't wait until they die and we can move society forward. I'm tired of trying to force progress over them.
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Of course. When they die, we will be able to revolutionize society, evolving it past foolish notions of private ownership, privacy, rule of law... Instead marching into the future under the lead of a strong, great leader who knows what is good for the people and the nation!
Uh, seriously, you see the baby boomers as a homogenous mass?
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Of course. When they die, we will be able to revolutionize society, evolving it past foolish notions of private ownership, privacy, rule of law... Instead marching into the future under the lead of a strong, great leader who knows what is good for the people and the nation!
Uh, seriously, you see the baby boomers as a homogenous mass?
always love your straw men
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One person's straw man is, at times, another's serious argument. I do note you didn't answer the question, though. Of course, you don't have to. Only do so if you want to.
One person's straw man is, at times, another's serious argument. I do note you didn't answer the question, though. Of course, you don't have to. Only do so if you want to.
When the question is that ridiculous, it doesn't deserve a response.
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Ridiculous? That is odd. I would say "most baby boomers and older" make it a pretty relevant one. I could be wrong.
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You're both beautiful and have excellent taste in headgear.
There. Argument settled.
:)
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:)You're both beautiful and have excellent taste in headgear.
There. Argument settled.
Spasibo!
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The thing is, being bitter and angry at an entire generation won't make the world a better place.
Bitterness and anger, are two things that never improve with age, only become more entrenched.
So have fun with your contempt for baby boomers, but in about twenty years you'll look the same in the mirror as they do to you now, petty and old.
:-)
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It is better to despise the older generations than the younger ones, for obvious reasons.
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You're both beautiful and have excellent taste in headgear.
There. Argument settled.
*hugs Rysky, wearing her death ward*
The thing is, being bitter and angry at an entire generation won't make the world a better place.
Bitterness and anger, are two things that never improve with age, only become more entrenched.
So have fun with your contempt for baby boomers, but in about twenty years you'll look the same in the mirror as they do to you now, petty and old.
:-)
Yeah. Doesn't make me not want to celebrate when iconic figures destroying our country die. :)
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No, I'm talking most babyboomers and older. Can't wait until they die and we can move society forward. I'm tired of trying to force progress over them.
I'm a 'boomer, with no plans to die according to your timetable. But it's also unlikely I'm one of those holding back the progress you want.